That's kind of deep...and not a bad bit of headcanon.

Gob Hobblin wrote:That being said, I feel like taking the time to explore other possibilities can open up some very interesting ideas in not only how the science of the Evangelion universe works (in terms of bonding souls and the like), but also the goals, aims, and decisions made by Seele (pragmatic, or something else?).

A lot of it turns on your base assumptions going in, too. For example, of the criteria Reichu listed the only one I find essential is that the donor be male; the rest are pretty easy to handwave given the gaps in our knowledge re: 2I. However, there are two criteria that weren't on that list that others might find essential:

1. Is not someone known to the rest of the cast. Given the precedent set by Naoko and Rei I it seems that people in the setting do recognize the clones if they knew the people who served as their templates, so I don't think we can write this off as a lapse on Anno's part or some quirk of anime. Naoko recognized Rei I even though she was a child with differently colored eyes and hair, so it's all but certain Misato would recognize a younger version of her father, and likewise Gendo and Fuyutsuki. Since no one recognized Kaworu it would follow that he is based on someone they don't know.

2. Is not present at Antarctica after Adam awakes. If we assume the donor was physically present for the experiment (and there seems to be reason to make that assumption), prior precedent suggests he would be absorbed by Adam as a result of the experiment. I say this not only based on the other CEs, but also on the various other Impact scenarios we've seen both in the show and in NGE2: Rei III and Lilith? Absorbed. Angels and Lilith? Absorbed. CEs? Absorbed. The Seeds and their clones really like absorbing people, so I think it's reasonable (not essential, mind, but reasonable) to presume the same might have happened with the donor during 2I.

So, with those in mind, Dr. Katsuragi becomes one of the few people on Earth who cannot be Kaworu's template. But, naturally, with different assumptions/criteria different conclusions will result . . .

So... is this thread supposed to be for discussing head canon / thought experiments only, or are we actually being serious? Because it's really, really hard to do both simultaneously. Also, can NemZ or Monk or somebody give this thread a more appropriate title?

Bagheera: If you're going to invoke Naoko meeting Rei, and hence the Yui/Rei paradigm, as precedent establishing some sort of hidden Anno rule that "somebody must unambiguously recognize Rei/Kaworu as looking like someone else in order for Rei/Kaworu to be based on that person", then it doesn't especially make sense for you to dismiss other elements established by Yui/Rei, such as:

- Obvious physical resemblance. (BTW, isn't it contradictory for you to claim that Misato recognizing Kaworu is necessary, while saying that Kaworu doesn't need to resemble his donor?)
- Name of derivative entity reflects the ethnicity of genetic source. (Yui is Japanese, Rei has Japanese name; hence ??? is Japanese, so Kaworu has Japanese name. It seems far easier to just accept and work with this than to fabricate an explanation for why someone who is not of Japanese blood, and not even being raised in Japan, would be given the name "Kaworu Nagisa"...)

Furthermore, it doesn't particularly make sense that you would omit my item A ("capable of being physically present for Adam CE") from your "essential criteria", then go on to say "If we assume the donor was physically present for the experiment (and there seems to be reason to make that assumption)" (i.e., indicate that you think item A is an essential criterion).

For the sake of argument: Misato not recognizing Kaworu as "ZOMG DADDY" doesn't pose any significant issue, IMO. Even if Anno had gone with the option of making Kaworu an illegitimate Katsuragi, why would he have written Misato's reaction as identical to Naoko's? Naoko saw Yui just one year prior. Misato, on the other hand, last saw Daddy Dearest some fifteen years before, and her memory of him is also tangled up in the clusterfuck of Second Impact, which traumatized her so badly she was reeling from PTSD and mute for years after. Combine all that with what Ursus said up-thread (which I know you agree with, else you wouldn't have used the same argument in more detailed form to justify one of your fanfic decisions), and... yeah, why should Misato see Kaworu and be given to a Naoko-type "Holy Shit! (S)he looks exactly like ____!" moment? The situations are totally different.

Incidentally, the way she does act in 24, which is to be weirdly bothered by and preoccupied with Kaworu, then be all shocked (and seem strangely melancholy) when the extremely obvious truth is revealed, works rather well IMO for a head canon of "she's kind of sort of remembering, but isn't quite there yet". Obviously, she wouldn't know the truth for sure until she does her hacking in 25'.

As far goes the recurring idea that the donor would probably be a casualty of the CE, I wouldn't mind seeing my points over here addressed. (I think they were ignored in the previous thread, too.) I'm also a bit curious as to what you and NemZ are actually imagining, setup-wise. Presumably the donor wouldn't need to have his entire body engulfed in order to make a genetic contribution, so where would the danger of being completely absorbed come from?

Not to mention Kaworu would be a YOUNG Katsuragi. Have you ever seen a picture of your dad as a teenager? If you met your dad as a teenagwer would you recognize him?

Ray wrote:Not to mention Kaworu would be a YOUNG Katsuragi. Have you ever seen a picture of your dad as a teenager? If you met your dad as a teenagwer would you recognize him?

If you grow up with a brother or other male family members who bear a close resemblance to your father, or just to each other in general, you inevitably develop an eye for this sort of thing. But Misato was an only child and we don't know anything about her extended family, so definitely can't say she would enjoy this sort of advantage. Even if she had seen teenage photos of her dad, a different hairstyle not to mention the different color palette would help quickly obfuscate recognition beyond the usual problems of unreliable/failing memory.

I think the biggest flunk for me, is not Misato failing to recognize Dr Katsuragi, but Gendo and Fuyutsuki not recognizing him. That can't be handwaved as "They were too young/traumatized to remember" because they were healthy adults when they knew Dr Katsuragi.

That alone is evidence showing me that Dr Katsuragi was not the incanon donor, plus all the thematic tie ins that were not present.

IFoT: There's no evidence of Fuyutsuki and Dr. K ever knowing each other. Gendo, yes, due to being the auditor on the research team. (Why an auditor needed to actually be down there, I have absolutely no idea.) I suppose it's worth asking, is the guy who watches the books likely to deal extensively with the people who spend the money (i.e., the scientists)? If he does, would his interactions be anything but strictly business and highly impersonal? Gendo also knew that almost everyone at the base was doomed, so I imagine he'd have distanced himself as much as possible from the proceedings anyway. Katsuragi would thus just be one of many, many faces to not get especially attached to.

Kaworu not meaning anything to Gendo beyond "what machinations hath Seele in store today?" fits the circumstances.

Reichu wrote:IFoT: There's no evidence of Fuyutsuki and Dr. K ever knowing each other. Gendo, yes, due to being the auditor on the research team. (Why an auditor needed to actually be down there, I have absolutely no idea.) I suppose it's worth asking, is the guy who watches the books likely to deal extensively with the people who spend it (i.e., the scientists)? Even if he does, would his interactions be anything but strictly business and highly impersonal? Gendo also knew that almost everyone there was doomed, so I imagine he'd have distanced himself as much as possible from the proceedings anyway. Kaworu not meaning anything to Gendo beyond "what machinations hath Seele in store today?" fits the circumstances.

That sounds like an awful lot of handwaving. If Naoko recognized a juvenile Yui based on no more than casual acquaintance I would expect Gendo to recognize a younger Katsuragi for similar reasons. And that's to say nothing of Misato.

Bagheera: What, no response to that giant post I typed for you? "That's to say nothing of Misato" suggests you're all but ignoring it. I am disappoint.

Handwaving seems like something you're perfectly comfortable with, if your previous posts are any indication, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Not to mention, beyond the potential issues I noted in my previous post, Gendo (like Misato) has not seen Dr. Katsuragi in fifteen years. Once again: only a year or so passed between Yui's "death" and Rei showing up. Also, calling Naoko's relationship with Yui a casual work acquaintance is being a bit charitable, since Naoko was clearly obsessed with Yui, being a barrier to and "rival" for Gendo's attention and affection. This persisted even after Yui's little "accident".

Reichu wrote:Bagheera: What, no response to that giant post I typed for you? "That's to say nothing of Misato" suggests you're all but ignoring it. I am disappoint.

Tough. You're nitpicking in the extreme there, and not paying attention to what's actually being said. And you're still handwaving when it's convenient, and playing it straight when it isn't. I am not convinced. But more importantly, why wouldn't Misato recognize her own father? Even at 15 years removed the notion that she would be ignorant of something so basic is ridiculous (particularly given the Naoko precedent; if Naoko can recognize her rival as a child the notion that Misato can't recognize her father as a young adult is absurd).

And again, that's to say nothing of Gendo and Fuyu.

Bagheera: I can't understand your position if I see obvious discrepancies, so you can either be all sore about it and complain about my "nitpicking" and missing the point, OR you could perhaps minimize these gaps in understanding by, I dunno, actually responding to concerns I've shown rather than ignore them (...sometimes repeatedly, and even over multiple thread iterations!), along with clarify any aspects of your position you think I'm not getting. Just saying "tough" is a great way to make the conversation degrade in precisely the way I've been trying to avoid here, so I can't say that was a grade A move on your part.

The handwaving (gods, is this term getting overused in here or what? I think my hands are going numb just from seeing it so much) vs. playing straight is at least in part an artifact of the thread's inability to decide just what the hell its parameters are. Which I mentioned as being a problem perhaps worth considering, to absolutely no response. So, yeah.

No point in responding to your concerns about Misato and Gendo, since I'd just be repeating myself. If you don't like what I said, you don't. Absolutely no idea why you're bringing up Fuyutsuki, since, to repeat myself once more: there's no evidence whatsoever that he knew Dr. Katsuragi. Where are people getting this from?

Reichu wrote:I can't understand your position if I see obvious discrepancies, so you can either be a sore loser and complain about my "nitpicking" and "missing the point", OR you could do something about these gaps in understanding by, I dunno, actually responding to concerns I've shown rather than repeatedly ignore them along with clarify any aspects of your position you think I'm not getting. Just saying "tough" is a great way to make the conversation degrade in precisely the way I've been trying to avoid here, so I can't say that was a grade A idea on your part.

And this whole bit is likewise a great way to make the conversation degrade. Stop focusing on me vs. the arguments at hand.

As to my position, it's simple: Naoko recognized Yui (a rival, yes, but merely an acquaintance) as a child while Misato didn't recognize her own father at a younger age (a family member with whom she was intimately familiar). Your "concerns" are invalid based on those simple facts.

No point is responding to your concerns about Misato and Gendo, since I'd just be repeating myself. If you don't like what I said, you don't. Absolutely no idea why you're bringing up Fuyutsuki, since, to repeat myself once more: there's no evidence whatsoever that he knew Dr. Katsuragi. Where are people getting this from?

Why wouldn't he? People in the same field tend to know one another, after all.

If they were all working for the Faux-Illuminati it stands to reason they might know each other or at least be familiar with each other from working in a tightly-knit field.

Sometimes, but it depends on who and what: sometimes, members of communities like that know very little about each other.

Then again, it can depend also on who or where they are ranked in the organization. Take a group like P2, for instance: some members were very difficult to find anything on, but others were open-books to the central leadership.

Bagheera wrote:Why wouldn't he? People in the same field tend to know one another, after all.

Given Dr. Katsuragi's deep preoccupation with rubber physics and alternate energy sources, it's probably safe to say that he is NOT a metaphysical biologist, and would have no appreciable reason to be socializing with them prior to joining Gehirn (...which Fuyutsuki didn't join until Katsuragi was quite dead).

And this whole bit is likewise a great way to make the conversation degrade. Stop focusing on me vs. the arguments at hand.

You're not making much sense here, since that "whole bit" was me asking you to respond to my arguments and make your own arguments more clear. Since you apparently have no intention of doing that, and think that the use of snippy language and air quotes is appropriate (it's not), it's probably time for this old girl to call it a day. Ta~.

Reichu: You're trying to find consistency in my position, when my position is that there are multiple possible outcomes depending on one's initial assumptions. For the criteria I posted I was pretty careful to present things in a way so as to note they were optional: "Others 'might' find essential", "But, naturally, with different assumptions/criteria different conclusions will result", etc. So, "if the donor was present, then this should result." That doesn't mean I think the donor was present; I just believe that, if he was present, certain things should happen. Similarly, I don't think the clone necessarily has to look like the donor, but if he does the cast should recognize him if they knew the donor.

It helps if you view my position is a series of if/then statements rather than an absolute statement of what must be.

Bagheera: Hmm, that does clear some things up. Thanks.

As I've conceded, the identity of Kaworu's donor clearly didn't matter to Anno-tachi, so nothing is said of it and we likewise have nothing to go on. Could easily be nobody of consequence; it doesn't make a difference to the story one way or another. Makes me wonder if the non-significance of Kaworu's donor is the point. Is this contrast with Rei actually deliberate? (That Kaworu continues to lack "personalized origins" in the new films seems to suggest "yes".)

At the same time, I find the Dr. Katsuragi possibility so compelling because it doesn't actively conflict with anything and only a pinch of additive retcon would be needed to make it work. So the whole thing plagues my mind as a thrilling "what if?" that was missed by only a hair's breadth. I find it a genuine pity it wasn't noticed and taken advantage of, as it would have beautifully complemented Misato's character arc: not only regarding her relationship with her father, but her relationship with Shinji.

Now, keeping in mind this post is written within the context of head canon and thought experiment...

About the whole recognition thing: I think you are approaching the matter a bit too dogmatically. In real life, things are seldom so simple, and fiction optimally reflects life as much as possible. Some people have uncanny memories and proficiency with facial recognition. And toward the other end of the spectrum, you have someone like me: I could be seeing someone nearly every day, but remove one visual cue, like their work uniform, and I'll have no idea who they are. Even with the people who are very distinct and memorable, I seriously doubt I'd be able to pick them out in their middle school yearbooks -- unless they're one of those folks whose facial features are not only very distinct but remain eerily constant, which can only be said for a portion of the population, possibly not a very big one. At any rate: Gendo being a rather socially inept person himself, I think you may be seriously overestimating him here.

With Misato, note that I was not only considering the sizable time gap, but the possible impact ( ) of significant psychological trauma, as well. This furnishes quite a bit more wiggle room than you're conceding, IMO. In the head-canon scenario I provided, I do not even imply that recognition is altogether absent! Rather, it is a muddled and nagging thing. Misato is also a generally sensible person, and her suspicions need to be concrete. Even if she did think, "Hmm, looks kind of like my dad", she would reasonably investigate further before jumping to an outrageous conclusion like, say, Kaworu being some kind of long-lost half-sibling her dad produced via genetic union with a giant alien...

Yet another consideration -- one hardly alien to NGE -- is the propensity for individuals to bury or dismiss thoughts that are dissonant or touch upon a significant source of pain. If Misato's brain so much as attempted to connect Kaworu to some unholy spectacle that Dr. Katsuragi (perhaps in gung-ho Yui fashion) subjected her to down in a godforsaken frozen hellhole shortly before the gates of death and destruction swung wide open, one could hardly blame her for going, "MmmmmmmNOPE!"

And, yeah, making it a bit more obvious that Misato sees something in Kaworu that really, really bugs her is one of the additive retcons that would need to be furnished. But overall, I don't see any problem with leaving Misato reeling in conflict and confusion until she does that hacking and has the horrible truth laid out for her.

Damn it, I already established Kihl as the donor in YC(N)T. If I hadn't I would have totally begged to use that in my story for why Misato felt that discomfort. Then again, there's plenty going on with the kids in that series to make Misato uncomfortable.

Ah, well.

I like Aura's Gendo theory, personally. The irony of Shinji's ideal self (which is what Kaworu represents) being a clone of his dad is just too delicious to pass up.

Bagheera: For all intents and purposes, Shinji is the Gendo clone of the story. Adding another one seems a bit redundant. Plus it disrupts the established Ikari Family dynamic, whereby Rei is "spiritually" (y'know, like a "spiritual sequel") Shinji's sibling (if a boy, Shinji; if a girl...) and each child closely mirrors one of the parents.

Gob Hobblin: Well, there are always rewrites, I suppose.