Theories: Who is Kaworu's Donor?

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Theories: Who is Kaworu's Donor?

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Postby Ray » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:14 pm

There is no real evidence for it. . . but if Kaworu was grown from Fuyu's cells, it would make for an interesting parallel between Gendo and Fuyutski.

Just a thought.
Last edited by Ray on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:35 pm

さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:10 pm

....all right. I'll admit it.

I was the donor.

I was young, and foolish. I thought I was in love, in that way only a young genetic donor can be. It was a gray area in my past, but I regret none of it! And given the same choices, I would do it all again!

:kaworusparkle:

...

...seriously, though, not much evidence to support that theory.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:00 pm

This thread reminds me, do Japanese fans tend to agree that Kaworu's donor = random nobody? The idea of it being Doctor Katsuragi himself is still appealing, but of course no real evidence either way.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:14 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:This thread reminds me, do Japanese fans tend to agree that Kaworu's donor = random nobody? The idea of it being Doctor Katsuragi himself is still appealing, but of course no real evidence either way.

From what I recall of Google searches I did eons ago (too lazy to repeat them right now), fans over there are no less guilty of just picking adult members of the cast seemingly at random and suggesting they're the source of Kaworu's Lilin genes. I remember one page that went all out with this idea that Kaworu was made from Yui. More or less entirely on the basis of having everyone who visits Gendo in Terminal Dogma in EoE be Yui in some way, as far as I could tell. Welp, just because they speak the language, it doesn't mean their ideas are actually going to be any good!

I'm still on team Dr. Katsuragi, natch -- if the donor's going to be ANY named character, at ALL, it can only be him. Though all things considered, NemZ (I think) made a good argument a while back about how if it actually were Dr. K, it's mighty suspicious that all the thematic resonances* would be left completely untouched. Oh, well. Anno's not perfect. :devil:

* But most especially: Misato is killing Angels to "get revenge" on Dad and rid herself of him. Last Angel actually turns out to be Dad -- well, in a sense -- hence with Kaworu's death Misato has satisfied her objective more completely and ironically than she ever could've hoped.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:23 pm

I tend to use Keel Lorenz as the donor, for fic purposes: it allows me the opportunity to explore Keel's ego, vanity, and fears of mortality while also diving into Kaworu's own personality and desire to establish himself versus a strong personality.

That being said, I'm largely ignorant of the Katsuragi theory, and frankly like it. Without having read any of it (but working through the angles in my own mind), there's a very strong appeal in it (and one I might have to explore in other fan fics).

EDIT: Fixed the Chairman's name, cause I'm a derp....
Last edited by Gob Hobblin on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:35 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I tend to use Lorenz Kihl as the donor, for fic purposes

The in-show and corroborative evidence for Kaworu's genesis more or less establishes that the donor was actually present, in their entire person, for the experiment with Adam. I won't explain more than that, since the thread I linked earlier goes into all of it. But needless to say, this bit of info alone rules out all but two cast members.

Plus... do you REALLY think Lorenz started life as a delicate bishounen and aged into a stocky, shriveled codger? I mean, I know epigenetics is a thing, but this is akin to suggesting that one could clone a boxer and end up with a greyhound.

("Lorenz Kihl"? Is he Hungarian?)

(and one I might have to explore in other fan fics).

Can you at least wait for me to finish mine so we're not dueling? :tongue:
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:43 pm

^

Fixed the name. Thank you, Reichu.... :shinji_blush: (I have no idea why I keep doing that).

Honestly....yeah. The idea is one I like, because it establishes this thought of Keel's age, and sickness: if he was that attractive once, what happened and how long did he live to get to that? It helps to highlight his desperation to keep living, and maybe why he would lead the HIP. We already know the lengths he was going to to stay alive.

And it's only one fic which I've outright stated that Kaworu is a clone of Keel (and it doesn't follow the established rules for Evangelion, and is clearly an alternate universe). I am sure there is a lot of metaphysical rules in play established by the show that would make it impossible, but I also think there's enough ambiguity in there (combined with Keel's general bastard behavior) for him to swing it. I'm not saying I'm behind that as a theory, just that it's one I like because it's fun to me. Again, I think I swing more towards Katsuragi.

And don't worry: I have PLENTY of fics in hand that demand my attention.

:kaworusparkle:

Frankly, I find it hurtful that none of you believe my claims. Though a penguin I may be, once...once I was beautiful!!
Last edited by Gob Hobblin on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:43 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I tend to use Keel Lorenz as the donor, for fic purposes: it allows me the opportunity to explore Kihl's ego, vanity, and fears of mortality while also diving into Kaworu's own personality and desire to establish himself versus a strong personality.


Yeah, that was my thought too. It fits in so many ways, particularly if the body was created later.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:58 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:I'm not saying I'm behind that as a theory, just that it's one I like because it's fun to me. Again, I think I swing more towards Katsuragi.

I can 400% relate to that sentiment. :tongue: Far as Katsuragi goes: welcome to the team, should you choose to stay! :highfive:

(And take a look at that "Kaworu's genesis" thread if you ever have the chance or inclination. Lots of nifty stuff there.)
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:59 pm

Much obliged!

:asukahearts:
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Welp, just because they speak the language, it doesn't mean their ideas are actually going to be any good!

The Japanese are just as confused over Evangelion as we are. That’s strangely reassuring.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:35 am

Hmm... the body he's in could very well be a clone of Keel, but the donor definitely was not.

Also I highly doubt it was Dr. K because he wasn't instantly killed when shit went wrong, nor fused into Adam's biomass.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:06 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Hmm... the body he's in could very well be a clone of Keel, but the donor definitely was not.

The donor is very, very probably the one whose DNA provided the basis for Kaworu's body. See: the thread I linked to earlier which goes over all of this.

Also I highly doubt it was Dr. K because he wasn't instantly killed when shit went wrong, nor fused into Adam's biomass.

Since we have absolutely zero idea how the procedure actually worked or what it required of the donor (other than some unspecified form of bad touch), this really isn't an obstacle. According to the flashback, all that's mentioned is genes diving. Not an entire person, just some genes -- a wholly insignificant loss to their original owner. If the donor had been a fatality earlier on, it also seems a bit curious that this wouldn't have put the KatsExp into panic mode considerably sooner. As is, they seem to be caught off-guard when the donor's genes "fuse" and everything starts going to hell.

If you're suggesting that the donor would've died later, after the flashback begins... Note that the "gene diving" part had occurred off-camera before Adam starts glowing, meaning that by the time the genes actually got around to "fusing", it's entirely possible the donor completed his role in the experiment. If he was still participating and got killed in the commotion, this seems like it would be a significant enough thing for the dialogue to mention. Really, would one of the many people on loudspeaker duty decline the opportunity to make a dramatic announcement if the human test subject met a cruel and terrible fate?

Your other argument for Dr. K not being the donor (the one I referenced earlier; forget what thread it was in, though) works a lot better, IMO.

Also, Kaworu doesn't look ANYthing like Kiel! At all! If NGE wanted us to think they were related, you'd think maybe Anno & Friends would've done something to suggest kinship other than make their physical features as unlike as humanly possible.* Like, say, what they did with Yui and Rei... Gob disavowed the suggestion as a serious one, so no idea why you and Bags are running with it.

* Incidentally, even the lower half of of Dr. K's face looks about a thousand times more like Kaworu than Kiel ever will.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:35 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The donor is the one whose DNA provided the basis for Kaworu's body. See: the thread I linked to earlier which goes over all of this.


I'm not sure I see what you mean. Presumably Adam was reduced to the embryo and then it's soul was put into a Kaworu body, but that could have come from any source, not necessarily the original experimental donor. But yeah, I will concede probably not Keel. Now that yellow Seele guy, the scrawny one? Maybe...

Also why does anyone assume Kaworu's 'birthday' is reliable info or in any way meaningful?
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:41 am

Well, to answer your concerns, I could copy and paste everything I wrote in the Kaworu Origins thread from earlier this year, but I can think of a much less troublesome alternative...

FOLLOW THE LINK! FOLLOW IT!!!!

:arrow: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/17331/

(Apparently you were present, but if you have no idea what I'm talking about you should probably take another look before I endeavor to rehash everything from scratch. Also, this thread really isn't about Ray's proposal any more, so a merge might be in order.)

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot to mention this. Judging from the fact that Kaworu is named Kaworu and not, say, Konrad, it's probably a safe bet that the donor was a Japanese dude.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:00 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Also, Kaworu doesn't look ANYthing like Kiel! At all! If NGE wanted us to think they were related, you'd think maybe Anno & Friends would've done something to suggest kinship other than make their physical features as unlike as humanly possible.* Like, say, what they did with Yui and Rei... Gob disavowed the suggestion as a serious one, so no idea why you and Bags are running with it.


If NGE wanted us to think Kaworu looked like Katsuragi it's highly likely Anno & Friends would have done something to suggest as much . . . like having Misato say "OMG he looks just like my dad!" for example. Since there's no such recognition in place I find the notion that he's a clone of Katsuragi highly dubious.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:36 am

Misato saw her dad when he was an adult and she was a child - and after all the trauma she went through post-2I, it's likely she doesn't entirely recall what her dad looked like. Enough to recognize her dad's face as an adult, maybe, but not as a grey-haired, red-eyed bishonen.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:19 am

Bagheera: Generally, it's considered a sounder debate strategy to actually provide evidence for your own assertions and address the arguments made by others, as opposed to just building straw men of the opinions of the opposition and attacking them to create the illusion of having a more stable and well-considered position than you actually do.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:35 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Bagheera: Can't think of any ways to substantiate the Kiel thing, so you're settling for attacking the straw man you're built for my position? (In light of various suggestions that have been made to the two of us, you may want to reconsider your attempt to kick the hornet's nest here...)


Not much of a straw man from where I sit. If she doesn't recognize him she doesn't, and that kinda torpedoes your theory (for reasons you yourself have articulated). If you want to say "well, Kaworu's a clone, he looks different, etc." that's fine, but of course that has implications elsewhere.
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The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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