Theories: Who is Kaworu's Donor?

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:22 am

Enough with the bumpercars, both of you. Agree to disagree and move on.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:52 pm

Gendo had to deposit his DNA sample and it had to be used because Yui's dad demanded it in exchange for his daughter's hand in marriage because bluh bluh bluh the scenario.

There, have a handwave.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:07 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:There, have a handwave.

Yeah, but what about the problem of how they would enforce this decision and everything I said after that? If you're going to commit to a crack theory, may as well go all the way with it. (I'm sure I'm coming off as a pain in the ass, but I actually enjoy this kind of creative problem-solving.)
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:42 pm

It was enforced by having a non-Gendo supervisor who's loyal to SEELE but is considered expendable by them. "Hey man, do what you're fucking paid to do."
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Postby Electreel » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:32 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Anno & Friends would have done something to suggest as much . . . like having Misato say "OMG he looks just like my dad!" for example. Since there's no such recognition in place I find the notion that he's a clone of Katsuragi highly dubious.


I must disagree.
There seems to be a strong parallelism between Kaworu and Kaji: their expression, pose, mannerisms and even clothing style are strikingly similar.
SPOILER: Show
Image
We already know that parallelisms in NGE aren't cryptic for the sake of being cryptic; they always have a meaning.
What purpose does the Kaworu-Kaji analogy serve, then? And how is this related to the topic at hand?

Guess who repeatedly tells Kaji that he is just like her father.
SPOILER: Show
ImageImage
If Kaworu resembles Kaji, and Kaji resembles Dr. Katsuragi, I think we can safely deduce that Kaworu must resemble Dr. Katsuragi in one way or another.
Last edited by Electreel on Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:44 pm

^Now, that...that is interesting. Never noticed that before. I should also add that if Kaworu is really a clone of Dr. Katsuragi, perhaps Misato doesn't remember him well enough to realise Kaworu is a clone of him as a child (possibly compounded by the albino features). She almost certainly doesn't know what her father looked like as a teenager, and as we see in the case of Shinji, if one doesn't have a lot of memories of their parent then one wouldn't recognise their parent if they encountered them (and Misato does mention that her father was away a lot, so she wouldn't have had a lot of well-formed memories of him).
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Postby Reichu » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:10 pm

Electreel: Thank you for fighting the good fight, kind sir. :salute:

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:^Now, that...that is interesting. Never noticed that before.

It was probably in here somewhere. (EDIT: I think the pics Electreel used were here originally. Man, how did so many image links in that old thread get broken?)
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Postby NemZ » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:21 pm

I was under the impression it was Kaji's putting business above others and even himself that reminded her of her father, not that he looked like her dad or had the same mannerisms. They're linked yes, but in two different ways that don't transfer.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:40 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I was under the impression it was Kaji's putting business above others and even himself that reminded her of her father, not that he looked like her dad or had the same mannerisms.

That could possibly describe at least 90% of Japanese men, so presumably the resemblance between Kaji and Dr. Katsuragi is a bit more general.
Last edited by Reichu on Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:48 am

View Original PostElectreel wrote:We already know that parallelisms in NGE aren't cryptic for the sake of being cryptic; they always have a meaning.
What purpose does the Kaworu-Kaji analogy serve, then? And how is this related to the topic at hand?


I don't think it has to be. Doesn't the fact that both serve as mentor figures for Shinji suffice here? That's the main similarity between them IMO.

If Kaworu resembles Kaji, and Kaji resembles Dr. Katsuragi, I think we can safely deduce that Kaworu must resemble Dr. Katsuragi in one way or another.


Well, it's certainly reasonable as far as headcanon goes! IMO though the similarities of are different kinds; in the one case it's symbolic, and primarily related to their interactions with Shinji, while in the other it's much more personal (as NemZ notes). I think it's a bit of a reach to connect the two (though, as I said, it's more than enough for headcanon purposes).
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:14 pm

I know Kaji and Misato's father probably didn't look THAT similar, but the insistence on comparing Kaji and Kaworu kind of bugs me because they have clearly different facial structure. Their chins and cheeks are different and their ears have different shapes. Kaworu's nose is also more pointed and his neck is thinner.

The resemblance can probably be marked off as the Six Faces of Anime rule in effect, just like how Shinji and Maya are basically clones, but this isn't plot relevant or commented on.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:33 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:I know Kaji and Misato's father probably didn't look THAT similar, but the insistence on comparing Kaji and Kaworu kind of bugs me because they have clearly different facial structure.

Their facial structures aren't what were being compared.

Electreel wrote:their expression, pose, mannerisms and even clothing style are strikingly similar.


Their hair growth patterns are also mirror images of each other, evident in the way their bangs fall. This is why the screenshots Electreel posted earlier are flipped oddly: I was highlighting this odd similarity in my old Kaworu-Kats thread. Once seen cannot be unseen!
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:32 pm

Yea and like...Almost none of that is genetic? Mannerisms, expressions, pose, and clothing style are all behavioral traits that aren't really hereditary except for maybe mannerisms and expression, but even then if there's any intended parallel it's because they're both idealized dream-hubbies for Eva pilots and the character designer's got limited selection of Bishie Traits.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:46 pm

So, in other words, Kaji's the donor? Kidding.

More seriously, it occurs to me that we don't really know how Kaji came to be employed by Seele. What if he took a page from Yui's book and took after his father? I.e., what if his father was a member of Seele, and ultimately became the donor? That would explain why Kaji has the position he does wrt Seele, and would also explain the similarities between him and Kaworu (i.e., Kaworu's a copy of his father; the similarities are there, but there's no recognition since Kaworu's based on Kaji's father and not Kaji himself).

Most likely explanation? I think not. But it has at least as much going for it as anyting else, and would tie up an awful lot of loose ends in the process. Worth considering IMO.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:14 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Almost none of that is genetic?

Not the point.

even then if there's any intended parallel it's because they're both idealized dream-hubbies for Eva pilots and the character designer's got limited selection of Bishie Traits.

Given the extent to which the Kaji-Kaworu parallelism is enforced (documented extensively by me in that old Kaworu-Katsuragi thread), I think it deserves to be given a bit more thought than what you're providing here. If you think "idealized dream hubbies" is the intended parallel, I'd like to see a more detailed argument at the very least. Seems like a pretty shallow comparison, IMO, to be worth (e.g.) redrawing shots of Kaji and Kaworu prior to their deaths in front of crosses so that their expressions are near identical...

BTW, Kaji isn't a bishounen/biseinen, if that's what you're trying to imply.
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Postby zlink64 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:34 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Given the extent to which the Kaji-Kaworu parallelism is enforced (documented extensively by me in that old Kaworu-Katsuragi thread), I think it deserves to be given a bit more thought than what you're providing here.


I read your old thread. Pretty interesting, I wanna say no lol but it's hard to say no given your evidence. You made it look super obvious if not undoubtable at least. The only reason I would think is Reichu is wrong is because while her evidence is good, she has no clear or direct reason to really connect Kawaru to Dr.K. and when I think of Anno making all these connection just to hint at Kawaru's donar, it feels strange me. Like why would he spend so much time hinting at something that is of practically of no importance or use to the story. When I think in terms of "what does this parallism have to do with the story", it makes more sense if it's just meant to highlight Kawaru and Kaji's roles in the story with Shinji instead of to hint at something that doesn't matter to the story. Reichu I think you may have "over thought" the Kawaru=Dr.K issue.
Last edited by zlink64 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:53 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I was under the impression it was Kaji's putting business above others and even himself that reminded her of her father, not that he looked like her dad or had the same mannerisms. They're linked yes, but in two different ways that don't transfer.


I do think that if Kaji had some kind of physical resemblance to her father it would be an interesting parallel to Shinji's attraction to Rei, who superficially resembles his mother. However, that is still purely hypothetical.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:10 pm

zlink64: From a more "hard" perspective, I agree that the Kaji/Kaworu similarities are there for more or less the reason you said, to highlight the similarity of their roles in relationship to Shinji. (It's probably worth a serious analysis, if it hasn't been done.) But this thread's intent isn't really hard-core -- if we were being totally serious, we wouldn't be discussing the donor at all -- and it seems to exist only to compare the relative merits of head canons. "If the donor WERE a named character in the show, who would it be likely to be?" Since it would take next to nothing to make Dr. Katsuragi work (it's set up nicely, and the payoff writes itself), naturally I'm going to vouch for him.

The "overthinking" was unintentional, since I was actually hypomanic when I came up with most of the content that would eventually show up in the Kaworu-Katsuragi thread. And sometimes once a thought has lodged in your brain, it nags and itches until you do something with it... (Hopefully writing fanfic will take care of that beast for good.)
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Postby zlink64 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:29 pm

Reichu:(It's probably worth a serious analysis, if it hasn't been done.)

When I was done with your thread I had the same thought. I'm tempted to spend a weekend watching the show just to take notes on Kawaru and Kaji lol. Your Hypomania is understandable lol..I mean it wasn't without reason and beside it was a fun read at any rate.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:42 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Not the point.


Given the extent to which the Kaji-Kaworu parallelism is enforced (documented extensively by me in that old Kaworu-Katsuragi thread), I think it deserves to be given a bit more thought than what you're providing here. If you think "idealized dream hubbies" is the intended parallel, I'd like to see a more detailed argument at the very least. Seems like a pretty shallow comparison, IMO, to be worth (e.g.) redrawing shots of Kaji and Kaworu prior to their deaths in front of crosses so that their expressions are near identical...

BTW, Kaji isn't a bishounen/biseinen, if that's what you're trying to imply.


I didn't really mean to imply Kaji was really bishounen, coulda cleaned my language up there, sorry.

I think any parallelism between the two is more because of what they mean to other characters than anything like a Dr. K donor thing. The connection between him and Kaji, for instance, is the Oedipal subtext and definite feelings of replacement Misato thinks she's imposing on Kaji (and thus one of the psychological forces keeping her from being fully satisfied with their relationship until it's too late).

This idea of people using others to fill voids is a running theme in the series, and people definitely atleast perceive they are using others to replace other people they've lost or cannot connect with. Shinji uses Kaworu as an anchor when his social life falls to shit, Gendo uses Rei as a bandage until he can get Yui back, Asuka uses Kaji to pretend she's an adult so she can ignore her inadequacies.

If the Kaji/Kaworu parallels are as strong as being suggested, it's more likely because they pretty much play a lot of the same roles to the Primary Actors they're basically side-characters to, and probably not because of a fairly minor character.
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