Theories: Who is Kaworu's Donor?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:17 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Bagheera: For all intents and purposes, Shinji is the Gendo clone of the story.


And Gendo is basically Bad End!Shinji who didn't grow up properly and Kaworu is "the idealized Shinji he wants to be" according to Sadamoto. It works out.

Plus it disrupts the established Ikari Family dynamic, whereby Rei is "spiritually" (y'know, like a "spiritual sequel") Shinji's sibling (if a boy, Shinji; if a girl...) and each child closely mirrors one of the parents.


Considering that Kaworu is inherently a symbol for disruption and inbalance, I don't see the problem. He muddies the waters of Angel and Lilin, he brings idealized and unconditional love into a work full of flawed and real relationships, he comes the closest out of all the Angels to upheaving the world and destroying the entire human race and in his failure dooms the Angels, and his mere entry into Shinji's life pretty much permanently fucks up his psyche beyond all recognition for the rest of the story.

Kaworu's a homewrecker.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:26 pm

Image
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Postby Stryker » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:29 pm

I'm okay with thinking that Gendou would look like that when he was younger -- and I am not okay with that.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:44 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:And Gendo is basically Bad End!Shinji who didn't grow up properly and Kaworu is "the idealized Shinji he wants to be" according to Sadamoto. It works out.


Agreed. There's some great symmetry in the idea, and that makes it a pretty easy sell thematically. And hey, Gendo was even in Antarctica! Even the logistics work out.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:15 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And hey, Gendo was even in Antarctica! Even the logistics work out.

He left the day before the experiment, so... how?
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Postby IfallOnTragedy » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:20 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:


Funnily enough, this looks more like young manga Kaji if the skin were lighter.

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Postby Ray » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:29 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:


Great. Homoerotic Overtones AND Incest.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:49 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:He left the day before the experiment, so... how?


He goes down there, deposits his donation, and leaves.

View Original PostRay wrote:Great. Homoerotic Overtones AND Incest.


Not like both weren't in the show already. Why not combine them into one person? :lol:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:10 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:He goes down there, deposits his donation, and leaves.

http://forum.evageeks.org/post/788680/Circumstances-of-Kaworus-creation-split/#788680
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:http://forum.evageeks.org/post/788680/Circumstances-of-Kaworus-creation-split/#788680


Yes, Reichu, I'm aware. I was there. But as Numbers said there are other ways to read that passage. If you're willing to change the show to make your theory work why shouldn't others be allowed to pick an obscure reading for a line from Death when contemplating an alternative? It's all about telling a fun story, after all.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:46 pm

Deposits his donation....ha!

"Sir, we have the charts you were asking...for...."

"Uh...just...leave them on the table...and pretend you didn't...see this...."
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Ray » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:20 am

Maybe it was something inconspicuous, like dandruff?
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:51 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yes, Reichu, I'm aware. I was there.

Worth keeping in mind that there are people reading the thread who probably weren't.

Even if you decide to take the (regrettably) popular route of using the more forced reading of the "contact experiment with the donor" line, Gendo simply being there at Antarctica to "make a donation" doesn't really account for all logistics, you know. Remember that he's not a scientist. According to the CI, he was an auditor for the research team. So, from the perspective of the many people who were actually studying Adam and setting up the contact experiment, Gendo would just be some penny-pinching asshole constantly looking over their shoulders and making sure they don't spend too much of Seele's precious money, more or less. Why in the world would the bloody book keeper get to participate in the big experiment the team has spent months setting up? The research team would reserve the honor for one of their own, since scientists stick together and love using themselves in experiments besides. (Just look at those other two contact experiments.)

So you have to now make up some reason why Seele would force the team to use the DNA of that obnoxious auditor in the contact experiment. But if Seele left the day before the experiment -- their lives are, after all, worth more than those of the lousy scientists they're utterly dependent on -- how would they even be able to enforce it? The team could just go, "lol, now that they're not here watching us we can do what we want! PARTY!" (Hey, contamination of samples happens. What are Seele gonna do about it? :devil: )

Another problem is that if Gendo knowingly participated in an experiment that stuck his genes into a giant alien for undisclosed purposes that we don't know about but Gendo surely would, why does he seem to not know what Kaworu is until the guy deploys his ATF?* I suppose it's an open question either way, but especially so if Gendo took such a deeply personal interest in the procedure. "Welp, I'm going to just leave my DNA here, then completely forget I ever did such a thing and not give any shits what becomes of the experiment's results until Seele uses it against me 15 years from now. I'll also provide absolutely nothing resembling a hint that I have anything to do with this bishounen Angel -- not even the merest iota of a personal reaction! -- despite it ostensibly coming from my genes."

* (I guess you can claim that he DID know and just didn't tell Fuyutsuki, but then you have to explain what Gendo would gain from withholding such crucial information from his partner in crime.)
Last edited by Reichu on Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:03 am

You are really jumping through hoops to pick a fight here. Just let it drop already.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:08 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You are really jumping through hoops to pick a fight here. Just let it drop already.

Stick to the points and not the people, Bagheera.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:24 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Stick to the points and not the people, Bagheera.


Oh, come on. You're handwaving like mad for your theory and nitpicking in the extreme for any other, and you pull this out? Give me a break! If you followed your own advice you'd let people have their fun instead of assuming yours is the One True Way and that all others are wrong, wrong, wrong, but instead you attack anyone who even vaguely disagrees with you. Why not let other people entertain different theories?
Last edited by Bagheera on Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:30 am

I cry when I see you two get like this over something so comparatively trivial. It actually gets in the way of people getting any value from your main points.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:45 am

Bagheera: People pointed out problems with my ideas and I addressed them. No real way to respond in turn to a thousand invocations of the word "handwaving" -- it's quite a useful tool for effortless dismissal, it would seem -- so I'm not sure what you want me to say there. "You don't like it; good for you"?

Now, if people can criticize my thing, I can criticize their thing without being personally dogged by somebody for it, in clear violation of forum guidelines. (If you have a beef with a person, take it to PMs like a grown-up.) Not to mention this is a DISCUSSION thread, and prohibiting an opposing side from being allowed to speak is not how we operate here. And is not exploring all the ins and outs, strengths and weaknesses, of various ideas part of the fun you speak of?

pwhodges: ...Huh?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:05 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Bagheera: People pointed out problems with my ideas and I addressed them.


You addressed them by suggesting an alteration to the show. That is . . . not a good theory. Not saying the alternatives are much better -- if we're going by canon the donor was obviously some shlub who was absorbed by Adam, same as everything else that came into contact with the Seeds -- but as crack theories go it's no better or worse than anything else.

Me, I'd rather see more in the way of crack theories going forward. Keeps things interesting.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:12 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You addressed them by suggesting an alteration to the show. That is . . . not a good theory.

View Original PostReichu wrote:As I've conceded, the identity of Kaworu's donor clearly didn't matter to Anno-tachi, so nothing is said of it and we likewise have nothing to go on. Could easily be nobody of consequence; it doesn't make a difference to the story one way or another. Makes me wonder if the non-significance of Kaworu's donor is the point. Is this contrast with Rei actually deliberate? (That Kaworu continues to lack "personalized origins" in the new films seems to suggest "yes".)

(...)

Now, keeping in mind this post is written within the context of head canon and thought experiment...


View Original PostBagheera wrote:if we're going by canon the donor was obviously some shlub who was absorbed by Adam, same as everything else that came into contact with the Seeds

Reichu wrote:As far goes the recurring idea that the donor would probably be a casualty of the CE, I wouldn't mind seeing my points over here addressed. (I think they were ignored in the previous thread, too.) I'm also a bit curious as to what you and NemZ are actually imagining, setup-wise. Presumably the donor wouldn't need to have his entire body engulfed in order to make a genetic contribution, so where would the danger of being completely absorbed come from?


View Original PostBagheera wrote:but as crack theories go it's no better or worse than anything else.

Reichu wrote:I find the Dr. Katsuragi possibility so compelling because it doesn't actively conflict with anything and only a pinch of additive retcon would be needed to make it work.
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