Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Joseki
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:09 pm

Sorry for bumping a month old topic but in the past weeks, while I wasn't studying for my ultra boring exams, I rewatched Q and lurked a bit the forum and I found some strong arguments supporting my view about Misato and Asuka. I'll start with the latter.



Image
(I stole this picture from one of @Literary Eagle Eva book reviews)

During production Asuka's facial expression in the fight was changed substantially. The original "EoE-like adrenaline rush excitement" expression was scrapped for a more worried/angry/frustrade expression. It's a meaningful change.

Then there's the verb used in the hugely debate "just die/let me kill you/surrender" phrase. While context itself should be clear enough to understand what she really meant, I've also asked the author of the official translation and that's what he had to say about it:


View Original PostJoseki wrote:0823 Asuka
おとなしくやられろ!ガキシンジィ!!
Just give up and drop dead, Brat Shinji!

やられろ
can have multiple meaning in Japanese.
殺る kill
犯る rape/fuck
やっつける defeat
are the most common meanings in this context.

[...]

While the meanings are different, I felt that the audience would be able to appreciate that Asuka's "let me kill you" has multiple meanings.

In the course of our lives, there are moments when people employ rash statements in moments of passion.

This was one such circumstance.


If we add those two hints/proofs to the already mentioned instances in which Asuka shows signs of conflicted affection for Shinji (calling him for help, calling him with his personal nickname, going to see him for no real reason, Mari's remarks, searching him in the desert, casually touching his face/lip, taking his wrist) Asuka's character is coherent with her initial visual appearance as somewhat hurt and with what Anno tells to the viewer with Sakura Nagashi and the preview. Visuals, soundtrack and narrative really works together to deliver a cohesive product.

Taking away this affection for Shinji not only makes Asuka incoherent as a character, constantly shifting between a rude behavior and senseless messages to Shinji as if she was bipolar, but also makes the movie disjointed with visuals, character and audio delivering to the viewer conflicting messages at the same time.





Image

Regarding Misato and the choker at the end watching the movie I noticed that the "Blood Type: BLUE" notification arrived to Mari came from the DSS choker, so even if Misato did pull the trigger (but I highly doubt it, it wasn't showed) she knew that Shinji wasn't wearing it.


Lurking in this section, I also found an interview from the Q-book with her voice actress that shed some light on her true feelings:

View Original PostAdam wrote:Q: Especially when looking at Misato's stance towards Shinji, it seems like a lot has happened [during these 14 years].
A: I think there was a lot of pain and spilled tears during these 14 years. It seemed like Misato had overcome this and deleted these memories, but the moment she met Shinji it all came up again. "Please act really really cold", this is what I have been told, but when I did so I have been told "It's so much that it's scary", so I said "Eh, not like this?" (laughs)
I tried to remember the hard time I had in my life, but that was rejected "Normal is okay, don't try too hard to make something up". Despite this, even my normal acting has not been appreciated. So in the end I tried everything, but none was good enough, so I went on with it while asking myself "How should I do this now?"

Q: I suppose there was an explanation by director Anno about the situation or circumstances?
A: As my own age was close to that of the character, I was told to act just like that. For 'Yo' [Rebuild 1.0] I have been told to try harder to sound younger, but this time I could just be myself.
There's this organisation called WILLE, which fights against NERV, and they even have built this magnificient ship WUNDER to [forcefully] get Shinji back and so on... this is from the script, but otherwise it was all my own guess. Only, I totally like the new costume. The first impression I got from the new Misato was "Wow, I really like her. She has turned out to be really cool...", so yes, I really favored the new costume.
I felt like この高いエリ (Kono Takai Eri/This high Ely?), 応援団 (Ouendan/Supportgroup) or Captain Okita from Yamato, so with this costume I'd even do cosplay (laughs). It's really the coolest thing.


Even ignoring "they even have built this magnificient ship WUNDER to [forcefully] get Shinji back and so on... this is from the script" I think it's significant how they tried to make Misato cold but not too cold with Shinji.

Kotono Mitsuishi hit the nail on the head with her description of Misato. She buried the past but when Shinji came back from Eva-01 she was hit by a truck of conflicting feelings and tried to mask it acting coldly (and again, like Asuka, her visual appearance is really on point and coherent with her character). When she had to choose she let Shinji live putting everyone's life at risk (it's an aspect I really hope Anno expand in Final), and she's clearly not some kind of sadist who laugh at Shinji's suffering because it wouldn't make sense for her character and for the movie.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:46 pm

Joseki wrote:Regarding Misato and the choker at the end watching the movie I noticed that the "Blood Type: BLUE" notification arrived to Mari came from the DSS choker, so even if Misato did pull the trigger (but I highly doubt it, it wasn't showed) she knew that Shinji wasn't wearing it.


Eh, do we have any particular reason to think when Shinji is all 'impact triggered' he wouldn't register as blue? Seems likely to me that's exactly what the detector on the collar is there to check for.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:12 am

The Chokes notificates about a "possible 13th angel manifestation" while Kaworu thinks he's been tricked by Gendo and degraded to the thirteenth angel. I don't think there any reason to believe Shinji could have ever become an angel.

What I think is the most likely scenario, and probably what Wille had in mind when they put the choker on him, is that in the case of Shinji somehow awaking an Eva the "Awakening Analysis Mode" would have activeted "Detonation Function" and killed Shinji stopping everything.
Clearly things took an unexpected turn for Wille when Kaworu wore the choker and, judging from Asuka's reaction in Central Dogma, they didn't expect Shinji to pilot the Eva with him.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:23 am

Really, no reason at all? The bit in 2.0 where his eyes glow and he seemingly awakens 01 by sheer force of will into a ass-kicking superbeast, tears a heavy chunk of metal console out of his way with his bare hands, then punches through reality even as it tears his skin off but he don't give a damn he's gonna save his Rei and fuck the world if it says otherwise... none of that made you wonder if maybe Shinji isn't entirely human?
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:47 am

I'm not saying they are normal human beings, they clearly aren't, but I don't think there any particular reason to believe Shinji could have become the 13th angel in that moment.
He didn't manifest any of the "super human" traits the pilots show while in high synchronization with the Eva units and even if he did there's nothing to suggest that an Eva pilot can become an angel in those situations, as it would mean that Asuka and Mari risk to become angels while using za bisto.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:55 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Eh, do we have any particular reason to think when Shinji is all 'impact triggered' he wouldn't register as blue?


Do we have any reason to think he would? We've never seen humans register as pattern blue, and given the framing of the scene it seems clear the choker was responding to Kaworu (and that everyone knew as much). Absent direct evidence what's the point in speculating about more baroque possibilities?
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:08 pm

it would mean that Asuka and Mari risk to become angels while using za bisto


It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the girls do risk exactly that, hence the need for voiced command locks on such functions. I also expect to learn in final that they both have something similar to Shinji's collar built into their suits and/or entry plugs for precisely this reason, with his version being more direct due to the significantly higher degree of threat he's demonstrated and general mistrust he carries. Having such a visible safety measure (hanging threat) in place might well have been at least partially intended for the benefit of the Wunder crew's peace of mind.

Do we have any reason to think he would?


The fact that a collar intended for him has the ability to make such a determination indicates that at least Ritsuko thought it was a possibility, otherwise she wouldn't have bothered building such a function into it in the first place. The more extraneous crap you slap onto a device the more opportunities there are for things to go wrong, and that's not an outcome you want in a critical fail-safe on which the whole world might depend.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:19 pm

To add to NemZ's point: given other things such as the Curse of Eva, Impact Triggers in general, and the fact that Asuka refers to other people as "Lilin", thus separating herself and the other pilots from normal humans, I think there's a very clear effort on the creator's part to create a distinction between normal people and these others that have been exposed to Evas for a long period of time. Going further back, there's even the worry of contamination when Asuka is exposed to Bardiel in Eva 2.0; we've still yet to answer the question of what is behind her eye patch. And let's not forget that Shinji spent fourteen years in disembodied limbo, and was eventually spat out with an ageless body. I wouldn't think it too far of a stretch to think that Shinji could potentially register "Blood Type: Blue" given all he's gone through.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:36 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:The fact that a collar intended for him has the ability to make such a determination indicates that at least Ritsuko thought it was a possibility, otherwise she wouldn't have bothered building such a function into it in the first place. The more extraneous crap you slap onto a device the more opportunities there are for things to go wrong, and that's not an outcome you want in a critical fail-safe on which the whole world might depend.


But the collar was intended for Kaworu, not Shinji. It was just repurposed for Shinji when he showed up.

And Sachi, "not too far of a stretch" is not the same thing as compelling evidence. We know Blood Type: Blue refers to Angels, and we know an Angel was wearing the collar when it activated. Further, everyone seems to know this is the case, as no one presumes Shinji's lost his head once the collar's activated. If they all think he's alive it's not reasonable to presume they might think the Blood Type: Blue notification refers to him.

(IOW the pilots might well have left their humanity behind, but that's a far cry from saying they've become Angels. Until we get some concrete evidence indicating that they register as blue I think it's foolish to assume that possibility is in play.)
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Sachi » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:41 pm

I pretty much agree with what you've said Bags, but I also think there's some good points, speculation-wise, to be made on the other side as well. We're at a very interesting point in the production where there's so many questions and so many possibilities. :tongue: I can't wait for Final.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:28 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:the pilots might well have left their humanity behind, but that's a far cry from saying they've become Angels.


Err... isn't that more or less exactly how the angels are described at some point by Misato, as humans who have abandoned their humanity?

Also I thought the collar being made for Kaworu was just speculation.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:16 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I've also asked the author of the official translation and that's what he had to say about it:

So Asuka didn't wanted to kill Shinji, she just was frustrated that Kaworu stole her fuckboy after 14 years of frustration, it all make sense! :nyao:
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:16 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Err... isn't that more or less exactly how the angels are described at some point by Misato, as humans who have abandoned their humanity?

That was in EoE. The only time a similar description has been used in the new movies is with regard to Eva-02's Beast Mode, or, if you really want to stretch it, to the pilots' humanity being threatened by a high plug depth.

Also I thought the collar being made for Kaworu was just speculation.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:43 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But the collar was intended for Kaworu, not Shinji. It was just repurposed for Shinji when he showed up.

Kaworu said that; but given the way he manages to make other statements misleading without necessarily actually lying, I wonder if this is is as simple a truth as that.
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