Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:18 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Nope. If that was the case she would have pushed the button when he escaped.

She essentially put herself in a situation where he'll still die but she doesn't have to take full responsibility (even though she's the one that activated the collar in the first place). That doesn't show any interest in caring for him all that much.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:31 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:She essentially put herself in a situation where he'll still die but she doesn't have to take full responsibility (even though she's the one that activated the collar in the first place). That doesn't show any interest in caring for him all that much.


If she didn't care for him all that much she would have killed him when she had the opportunity.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:55 am

Hmm... I've read a manga where there is a mad scientist by the name Disty Nova that runs experiments that would made Mengele cringe. One of his insane creations was an amusement park with living beings as an attractions.

I specifically refer to this http://imgur.com/5IptQD5

Those are living horses fused into merry-go-round. The pipes that run through their bodies are life support system connected that keeps the horses alive.

Eventually one of them tries to escape, breaks free, tears the pipes of its body and after taking a few steps, dies.

Nova burst out laughing that if the stupid horse just keept on spinning he would still be alive.

As you see Nova didn't killed him. He even kept him alive and the horse would still live as long as he did what Nova placed him to do. Nova didn't fused him to carousel out of hate either. And he didn't killed him despite that he could... According to your logic he must have cared about that animal... It's all horse's fault for dying.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:13 am

That has absolutely nothing in common with the topic at hand so I fail to see the relevance.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:33 am

Actually it has.

I compare two paralells.

Both Wille and Nova used the same rule - Use a killswitch - You do as you're told, you'll live, you escape, you die. We don't do it, you kill yourself.

And apparently neither Nova nor WIlle hated their target.

Does that sound like care?
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:37 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Which is why I'm not saying they hate him, but they certainly don't have much care either. The choker was still set to activate in the event of an awakening, and as far as the movie goes to show, Misato has no idea it was on Kaworu when it went off.


If you go frame by frame when Ritsuko is setting up the detonator you can see a "biometric verification" mode in the choker, so there a big chance they knew it wasn't on Shinji at that moment.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:42 am

Kaworu could fool the system into letting him unlock the choker from Shinji, so presumably he could just as easily fool the verification system.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:00 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Both Wille and Nova used the same rule - Use a killswitch - You do as you're told, you'll live, you escape, you die. We don't do it, you kill yourself.

And apparently neither Nova nor WIlle hated their target.

Does that sound like care?

Did the horses in that story have the potential to accidentally end the world in a fit of emotion? Seems like an important detail to leave out. Even though he's extremely dangerous, Misato doesn't want to kill Shinji, but is prepared to should the worst occur.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:If you go frame by frame when Ritsuko is setting up the detonator you can see a "biometric verification" mode in the choker, so there a big chance they knew it wasn't on Shinji at that moment.

That's an interesting train of thought. Wille must be aware that Unit-13 was being dual piloted; at least, I would assume they're in the relative "know" regarding Eva technology now, and know that it takes two pilots to wield two spears. Mari is still communicating with Shinji after the choker detonates, and is well aware that he's still alive when she's ejecting him from the Eva; as does Asuka when she goes to recover him from his ejected plug. The only thing Wille was surprised about was that the Doors of Guf remained opened and that Eva-13 remained active, even after one of the two pilots was killed. It might be quite possible Misato was aware it wasn't Shinji wearing the choker when she presumably pulled the trigger during 4I.

EDIT: @ Pwhodges: good point there as well. Who knows.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:06 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Did the horses in that story have the potential to accidentally end the world in a fit of emotion? Seems like an important detail to leave out. Even though he's extremely dangerous, Misato doesn't want to kill Shinji, but is prepared to should the worst occur.


So it all boils down, to who have a grander excuse right?

That still doesn't indicate care.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:09 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:So it all boils down, to who have a grander excuse right?

Uhh, potential to end the world is a pretty grand and legitimate reason to take such precautions. The horses in your analogy seem as though they're being sadistically fucked with for amusement. Huge difference.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:22 am

Still... There is one important thing... Nova doesn't hate them.

One doesn't need to hate the other to make them misreable. You can very well hurt someone without hate. Also I don't want to derail it by explaining Nova's complex reasons and personality, but the points are made still stands. There is no hate but there is no care either.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Sachi » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:32 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Still... There is one important thing... Nova doesn't hate them.

One doesn't need to hate the other to make them misreable. You can very well hurt someone without hate. Also I don't want to derail it by explaining Nova's complex reasons and personality, but the points are made still stands. There is no hate but there is no care either.

Except obviously there is care on Misato's part since she hesitated to pull the trigger. Asuka obviously still cares since she thought twice about abandoning him in his ejected entry plug. The story clearly feels it's important that both of them have strong conflicting emotions regarding Shinji.

Meanwhile, Mari still treats him the same. Sakura is nice, even though she's scared of him. Ritsuko seems as indifferent as always, maybe just a bit moreso. Everyone else at Wille seems wary and distrusting of him at worst.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:36 am

For now I concede or I would have to repeat myself and I'm of to work soon. Maybe someone else will pick up my point, so I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:23 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Kaworu could fool the system into letting him unlock the choker from Shinji, so presumably he could just as easily fool the verification system.


But when Kaworu unlocked the choker they were well outside its range and we know Wunder was pretty close when it activated, still we don't know if being in range or out of rage is important only for manual detonation or for the other features too.

Anyway right after the choker detonates Mari is well aware that Shinji is still alive, so somehow they knew it wasn't on Shinji's head.
Last edited by Joseki on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:41 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:There is no hate but there is no care either.

Or there are both, and more. As Sachi said, they are conflicted, and in such situations trying to pin down that specific emotions are or are not present is fruitless, and even misleading.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:51 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Anyway right after the choker detonates Mari is well aware that Shinji is still alive, so somehow they knew it wasn't on Shinji's head.


The DSS choker monitors and transmits biometric data. Mari almost certainly knew when it notified her of a possible 13th Angel manifesting.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:36 am

View Original PostStillborn wrote:I compare two paralells.


Yes, but not effectively. It's not a convincing argument.

View Original PostStillborn wrote:That still doesn't indicate care.


Again, the fact Misato didn't pull the trigger when she logically should have does indicate care.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Lennik » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:33 pm

Honestly, if you're going to compare Misato Katsuragi refusing to kill Shinji in spite of having the excuse that the world was at stake to a mad scientist cackling about a tortured horse accidentally killing itself, I'm honestly just going to come right out and accuse you of being insincere in your argument.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:58 am

You seem to don't get the point, but I can do nothing about it. Call me insincere if you want but it makes no difference to me. I gave you my points and reasons. If you reject them it's your right.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:04 am

Well, there's not getting the point, and then there's getting it and not finding it persuasive. Most in the thread seem to be in the latter group.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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