Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:45 am

Hi, first post here. A few days ago I was sick at home and I watched NGE and all the movies, I had no idea of what it was about and so on but I really enjoyed the ride. Then I came on the internet looking for some random stuff I didn't understand and with much surprise a read many times that Asuka and Misato (and in general anyone after 2.0) hates Shinji and while I can agree that on a surface level it may seems so I think during 3.0 there are many hints that they actually don't.

Regarding Asuka:

-In the very first sequence of the movie we see Asuka and Mary rescuing Eva-01 from orbit. Mary didn't fully make to orbit and so he's forced to leave Asuka alone and then a Mk 4 appear. Asuka is being beaten and she scream to Shinji for "baka Shinji" to help him. As we knew from 2.0 "baka Shinji" is how she start to call Shinji after she search him for confort in his room and it obviosly is said with some kind of emotion. She could have said something like "do something little shit" and still be very much in character, but she (Anno) choose to use the "sweet" baka Shinji. Eva-01 awoke thanks to magic power of "my friend is danger" and fix the situations, leaving Asuka amazed with big, slowly moving anime eye. She doesn't show any negative emotion and thanks to the power of cuts we know she was looking right into Eva's (and so Shinji's) eye.

-The next time they are in contact is after the flet escaped a close encounter with a Mk 4. I think it's safe to believe that a significant amount of time passed between the scene in space and the one on the deck since Eva 01 has been mounted into Wunder's core and they analysed the plug in search for Rei. I also believe that not too much time passed since their first encounter 'cause I think Gendo would have wanted Shinji's back as soon as possible. So maybe we are talking about a "few days" to "couple of months" span. This I believe it's a scene that could is more open to interpretations than the previous one.
She entered the room, she saw Shinji and then punched the glass.
What Asuka said here is pretty straightforward and it's something along the lines of "I punched the glass 'cause I can't contain myself" and after Shinji asked her about the eyepatch she tells him to mind his own business before storming out of the room. At this point I thought "he's really death to her" but after the end of the movie I changed my view on the meaning of this whole sequence. Wedon't see anything that happens outside Shinji's point of view and therefore we have no information on what is going on inside other characters head but for what we can see Asuka had no real reason to see Shinji, he was already confirmed to be "the real one" and not some kind of clone and clearly she wasn't ordered to do anything. She probably finished her mission and went directly to Shinji's place to see him on person. Why would she do that if really hated him? In 2.0 she "hates" (she really doesn't) Rei and avoid her most of the time until he realize she actually care for her.
Also the punch itself can have a different meaning: she's indeed angry but not directly for what Shinji did, she's angry 'cause she saw him and still cared for him deep inside her heart. This must have felt like a nuke inside her head and being a really proud individual this made her really angry with herself. She left the room and we don't know what she did. Since we can see her cap and jacket in the corridor I suspect she didn't really do anything.
Anyway then there's an interesting dialog between Mary and Asuka that can offer an insight on what Asuka really had inside her head: while preparing for lauch Mary ask Asuka about their encounter and in a very tsundere way she responded that he hasn't changed a bit and he still has that stupid face of him, which makes Mary imply with a rhetorical question and a smirky face that she actually went to see him to see his face. She obviously denies but she would have said a big "No!" anyway. This particular exchange it's very meaningful 'cause for all we can see they are really close now, and being both Eva pilots she's probably the closest to her.
There's also the "so much fuss over one person" Asuka that imo hints at jealousy more than anything else being Rei the subject and their past in 2.0.

-A lot of yaoi material happens and Shinji is again against Asuka, this time in a Eva fight. She calls him again "baka Shinji" and start fighting. Honestly the fight itself isn't really "food for thought" and apart for various typical battle screams we don't get anything too meaningfull imo. In the aftermath of their fight tho there are again some exchanges open to interpretations. Shinji lost his will to live after almost causing another Impact and having seen Kaworu dying in front of him. He's still in the plug we see Asuka opening the hatch. She has an heavy breath so she probably run to him and mirroring their first encounter in 2.0 she scold him from an higher position and leave, only to sigh and go back to save him and proceed by foot in the desert. The way she talk to him it's pretty rude and she even push him with her foot but again, she's harsh on him but on a very superficial level: she calls him "brat" and she's annoyed by te state Shinji's in, not by Shinji himself. She scold him for not coming to help her (as she wanted to) and for giving up again, not for what he's done.
At the end of the move she's phisically pushing him out of his cage (the plug) taking him by his hand, leaving just one trail of footprints in the sand while walking into the unknown together (that was some fantastic imagery). The whole scene convey more a disfuntional group of three friends than one prisoner taken into custody and the tone of the scene mirrors it perfectly with the soft piano and the distant view.

It's important to remember that while 14 years passed we don't know how much time Asuka was awoke (the whole time? 6 years? The few years prior to Shinji's return to earth?) and that she's stuck (permanently?) with the body and the mind of a 14 years old, she didn't grow, she just lived more.

-Misato on the other hand did really change a lot. She's in charge now, she's the boss and has the fate of humanity as his own responsibility. She need to fight Gendo and Seele with a low budget organization full of civilian. She needed to change, to put a wall between her heart and the crude reality she's in.
She has not as much screen time as she had in 1.0 or 2.0, we saw her twice and really briefly. All we know is that she probably wanted to see him as soon as he woke up but she didn't want to talk to him at all, not in the deck and not behind the glass. She was distant the whole time but once she had the occasion to kill him she couldn't pull the trigger, she instinctively chose him over the possibility of a Fourth Impact. She couldn't put her duty in front of how much she's attached to Shinji. We can't see her face nor hear her thoughts so nothing can really be said on how she felt afterwards.

-During the Fourth Impact we see her again charging Eva 13 trying to stop it and failing to do so leaving her worried saying "Shinji-kun". Was she worried for Shinji or for what Eva 13 was doing (or both)? It's unclear.

Old Misato isn't very defined as a character for now, but I think much of her new personality is due to the guilt he feels knowing that Shinji caused Near Third Impact also because of her hoping for him to pilot the Eva for his own personal wish and the fact that she had to cope with the aftermath of the events. Shinji to her is now a threat, someone he had really close and most of all a personal failure.

Also there are some points outside the Eva universe to consider: NGE was about overcoming depression and learning to live with others. Having Shinji all alone wouldn't really make sense, he has to go really down just to get better no matter what like he did in EoE. Rei II is now gone forever, most of his friends are gone forever and the can't have them back, "you can (not) redo", and he has only Asuka and Misato. Loosing them will definitly push him to accept Instrumentality and I can't see it happening since it will negate all the sense of NGE+EoE. They have to overcome this.

There's also the fact that Final will be called 3.0+1.0, which is "you can (not) redo + [but?] you are (not) alone" that could be a hint to a happy ending (cause at the end of the day both EP26 and EoE had fucked, but happy, endings).

What do you think? Hopefully it's not a load of nonsense but I don't really know. :D
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Geometer » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:00 pm

Probably not hate. But its hard to see how the can reconcile after what he put them and the world through even if he didn't do out of malicious intent.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:52 pm

They don't.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Celepito » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:53 pm

Love that post, nice details, fully agree.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:She calls him again "baka Shinji" and start fighting. Honestly the fight itself isn't really "food for thought" and apart for various typical battle screams we don't get anything too meaningfull imo.

I have read somewhere in this forum that in the fight Asuka calls out "Die already!" or something along those lines (only saw the german version, so bare with me), which is supposedly a mistranslation and should be "Stay down already!" or similar. Another hint that hate isn´t really involved.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:she's stuck [...] with the body and the mind of a 14 years old, she didn't grow, she just lived more.

My viewpoint exactly, but uncertain since it is nowhere(<- is that right?) stated directly.

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Rei II is now gone forever

Possibly not since Shinji heard Reis voice in the interogation room, before ReiQ got him out, while the rest seemingly didn´t, but again uncertain, it could be that they simply ignored her voice. She could be in Unit-1 since we saw Shinji pull her out of the Zeruel. It´s is unknown, but I would say that Rei II coming back is unlikely and wouldn´t be fitting.

View Original PostGeometer wrote:its hard to see how the can reconcile after what he put them and the world through even if he didn't do out of malicious intent.

We don´t know if it is really Shinjis fault, since at the end of 2.0 we saw Kaworu stop Unit-1 and now he is telling Shinji that he(Shinji) caused 3rd Impact. Those two contradict each other since the destruction at the end of 2.0 isn´t even near what we see in 3.0. It could just be a plan to guilt Shinji into piloting again.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:57 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:They don't.

Would you care to elaborate?
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:25 pm

View Original PostCelepito wrote:I have read somewhere in this forum that in the fight Asuka calls out "Die already!" or something along those lines (only saw the german version, so bare with me), which is supposedly a mistranslation and should be "Stay down already!" or similar. Another hint that hate isn´t really involved.


The subbed version I saw had the "die already!" bit but it was out of tone and character with the Asuka we saw before and after that point, and after searching on the internet I too found that it wasn't what she actually said, so I excluded that bit from my original post.

View Original PostCelepito wrote:My viewpoint exactly, but uncertain since it is nowhere(<- is that right?) stated directly.


While it is never clearly stated what exactly is the "Eva course" it's safe to bet that the brain is included in it simply looking at it from a biological point of view: if he stopped growing her brain didn't develop too since it lacked the correct hormones and stuff like that. There are real pathologies like that in our world so it's possible. Asuka and Mary are pretty much the same as they were in 2.0, Asuka is just more angy, Mary it's really the same girl. Being a grown up woman in a child's body wouldn't relly make sense for the story: what's the purpose of it? Why don't make her older like Misato and the others. It wouldn't add anything.

View Original PostCelepito wrote:Possibly not since Shinji heard Reis voice in the interogation room, before ReiQ got him out, while the rest seemingly didn´t, but again uncertain, it could be that they simply ignored her voice. She could be in Unit-1 since we saw Shinji pull her out of the Zeruel. It´s is unknown, but I would say that Rei II coming back is unlikely and wouldn´t be fitting.


Isn't that the voice from Rei Q?

View Original PostCelepito wrote:We don´t know if it is really Shinjis fault, since at the end of 2.0 we saw Kaworu stop Unit-1 and now he is telling Shinji that he(Shinji) caused 3rd Impact. Those two contradict each other since the destruction at the end of 2.0 isn´t even near what we see in 3.0. It could just be a plan to guilt Shinji into piloting again.


All we know is what Shinji's told: he's accused/believed to have caused Ner Third Impact but we don't actually see anything. As you said in 2.0 we see that what he started get stopped but we don't know if it was resumed at a later stage just to be stopped again. That could explain why we leave Eva-01 impaled on the ground and found it in space. Shinji doesn't remember anything after saving Rei II and judging from the quick medial check up he had at the start of 3.0 that's what he was supposed to know, therefore nothing happened during the time skip that he directly caused. 14 years is such a large amount of time that anything could have happened.

Gendo (or Seele) could have passed false info to Willie just to make Shinji the actual 'cause of the Impact, pushing them to recover him with Eva-01 from space just to steal Shinji from them using Rei Q. It's totally something that Gendo would do.

View Original PostGeometer wrote:Probably not hate. But its hard to see how the can reconcile after what he put them and the world through even if he didn't do out of malicious intent.


I think they can for various reasons: Shinki need to be saved/save himself from his depression, he need to make a step forward and open his heart to others. That's why he rejected instrumentality in episode 26 and EoE. He has to make friends/love like Anno did coming out his depression (then going in and out again but that still doesn't negate this point). NGE did deliever a strong message about depression and I don't think Anno would make a u-turn on such a vital point of Evangelion, it is its core.
We have to consider that in the current state Shinji's in he's as useful to the plot as a brick. He's totally useless. He need something to fight for otherwise he'll never get into an Eva again, and I can't see 3.0+1.0 not having Shinji saving the day or at least triggering a mass extinction at the end. Can Shinji come out of depression all by himself? It would deliever a message that is the opposite of the one Asuka delivered in NGE: you need someone in your life and you need to accept and mold yourself to be able to do so. From a pure psychological point of view that would also be impossible, Shinji lacks all the tools to do so, he'll get them once he'll realise what is important in life, friendship and love at the cost of some pain.
There's also Mary, the only time the we see her in 3.0 she's either failing hard to help Asuka on the battlefield or trying to be a good Cupid for Asuka and Shinji. She make tries to make Asuka realise that he wanted to meet Shinji for his face at the start of the movie and at the end in what seems a mirrored parallel she tries to make Shinji help Asuka as soon as he's no longer triggering an Impact.
In EoE the situation between Shinji and Asuka was really better? Asuka had a mental breakdown because of him, she got into a coma and Shinji masturbated watching his comatose body, then he let her being killed by the Evaseries, he strangled her in a dream sequence and then again on the beach. Yet she still caressed him in what is the only really open hearted moment of Asuka in both NGE and Rebuilds.
Last but not least important: fan service. Let's be honest, no one of us would really like/want to see Shinji getting a big "FUCK YOU" from Anno like that. It would have a hugely negative impact on sales, and so on.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Celepito » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:02 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Isn't that the voice from Rei Q?
As I already said, it could be ReiQ's voice, but neither Misato nor Ritsuko seemed to even react to the voice Shinji is hearing, as if it is only he that is hearing it. But they could just be ignoring it, like I already said. A discussion about that is probably better for a new thread.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Geometer » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:13 pm

View Original PostCelepito wrote:

We don´t know if it is really Shinjis fault, since at the end of 2.0 we saw Kaworu stop Unit-1 and now he is telling Shinji that he(Shinji) caused 3rd Impact. Those two contradict each other since the destruction at the end of 2.0 isn´t even near what we see in 3.0. It could just be a plan to guilt Shinji into piloting again.


Well Shinji definitely did something, they wouldn't be pointing guns and planting a bomb on his neck if he wasn't a threat. He lit the spark that set off the powder keg. He didn't set up the powder keg or even light the spark on purpose, but his impulsiveness and selfishness made him blind that he was playing with fire. He may not have destroyed the world but his irresponsibility made it possible.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:49 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Would you care to elaborate?

It's been gone through many times, and I don't have time at present to repeat all the evidence. But consider - when Misato has the chance to kill him, she doesn't; when Asuka has the chance to abandon him, she doesn't. You could doubtless talk your way around each of those in isolation quite easily, but there are many other indications that they are worried by what he seems able to do (before it happened, who knew?) and frustrated when dealing with him (what's new there?) - but neither of those has to mean that they hate him. You hate people for the bad things that they want to do, or have already done with intent; you do not hate them for trying to do the right thing but sometimes getting it wrong through being deceived, confused, or even incompetent.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:55 pm

Except they are all acting "within acceptable parameters" as far as Gendo's concerned.

Shinji was merely unlucky enough to be the designated trigger piece.

However Shinji's feelings may may not have influenced the outcome is irrelevant as he didn't know they had any bearing outside his head.
For him, this whole bit at the end of 2.0 was about finding his own authentic motivation outside pleasing Gendo or intellctualized claims of altruism - Hence the parallel to Misato saying that it was, to an extent, about her own hops for her, and how she cheers at his declaration at first, before he blacks out and loses control of the EVA. No one really told him what the EVA is.


We don't fully know what exatly happened in the time skip except that there was a lot - Did NTI directly cause all that or did it set the foundations? I don't think any of the "he didn't do it" theories make any thematic sense but we don't know the exact mechanics, ie, how the outcome could have been different.


See how Mari, who fully understands that, does have some measure of situational 'get your act together' going on but doesn't otherwise bear any animosity toward Shinji.

As for Misato and Asuka, you'd have to talk definitions about what you'd consider hatred or hateful treatment and wether you mean some cartoonish thing, but there's certainly contempt and indifference.

Asuka's the one who is completely unsympathetic and cold, whereas Misato is holding back some lingering affection simply because maternal/familial bonds don't go away so easily, but she's always had certain captain ahab tendencies and was often conflicted between hate & love felt towards the same person in the past.

Their situation also has to be seen in the concept of 14 years of post-apocalyptic hell, how that utterly eclipses the brief time they knew Shinji (especially in Asuka' case) and a fundamentally changed world even more ruthless than the one before - Nobody has time or ressources for one single kid because it's war.
Though we mostly see her cold & ruthless side from Shinji's PoV, Misato is ostensibly beloved & admired by her subordinates as a determined, optimistic leader.

"Do something, [responsible person]", and not killing someone on sight do not indicate sympathy or caring; They just indicate not being a cartoon villain. They drew a number on his naked feet, kept him in a cell (so there goes your "no time to explain"), go out of their way to show their disdain mostly in a contained, "I have work to do" manner that they still don't bother to fully restrain, everything about the way they look at him and the language they use conveys absolute disdain, aaand it's played right into Gendo's hands.

But again, so did ~ALL~ of them, especially Shinji, and including Mari and Kaworu who were the only ones to fully realize it.

I'd say that they do hate or at least didain him (moments of being conlicted don't detract from that), but it also has to be noted that the point of that is not Asuka or Misato being bad people - though their actions were rong and counterproductive, they are understandable - but that the post-impact world and war/desaster in general is just that horrible.

Since day one, Shinji has been crushed by the terrible stakes beyond anything a child his age should endure, in 1.11 Shinji outright says, "If I fail everyone will hate me", and, that's not just teenage anxiety talking that's a real risk because, you think people will care much about his circumstances when they lose their loved ones and livelihoods? Also, the EVAs have always been set up as frightening & barely controllable 'pocalypse achines.

So, that makes a scenario where an EVA goes out of control and ruins everythng a logical and interesting scenario to explore, a kind of 'personal hell' scenario where Shinji is separated from his loved ones and his recurring nightmare seems to have come true, at least as far as he's aware (Because, does he know Misato spared him?), as a means to test him further.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:21 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Except they are all acting "within acceptable parameters" as far as Gendo's concerned.


Well, Gendo's the one everyone's shooting at, so it's not like he's been ignored there.

As for Misato and Asuka, you'd have to talk definitions about what you'd consider hatred or hateful treatment and wether you mean some cartoonish thing, but there's certainly contempt and indifference.


When you do a bad thing, and then proceed to do it again after everyone and their grandmother tells you not to, I think a certain amount of contempt is warranted. That doesn't equate to hatred so much as anger and frustration. Also remember that no one else saw what Gendo did to Shinji while he was at Nerv (heck, for all they knew he had defected and joined his father of his own free will -- how would they know any different?).

"Do something, [responsible person]", and not killing someone on sight do not indicate sympathy or caring; They just indicate not being a cartoon villain.


That's debatable. They certainly aren't evidence of hatred, and are about as strong arguments against as the arguments you make in favor.

They drew a number on his naked feet, kept him in a cell (so there goes your "no time to explain"),


Oh? Would you have them have a conversation with him while he was unconscious?
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby NemZ » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:35 pm

Can you hate someone for not being inherently hateable enough to not hate yourself for not being able to hate them, and thus actually hate them for their inconvenient unhatefulness? :huh:
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Lennik » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:59 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Can you hate someone for not being inherently hateable enough to not hate yourself for not being able to hate them, and thus actually hate them for their inconvenient unhatefulness? :huh:


No, on account of the unhatefulness. That slips more into "I'm angry that I can't bring myself to hate you" territory.

Kendrix wrote:"Do something, [responsible person]", and not killing someone on sight do not indicate sympathy or caring; They just indicate not being a cartoon villain.


I'm gonna second Bags' point and call this debatable. You generally don't cry out for someone you hate to come and rescue you. Especially if they're supposed to be dead.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:31 am

View Original PostKendrix#853089 wrote:Except they are all acting "within acceptable parameters" as far as Gendo's concerned.

Shinji was merely unlucky enough to be the designated trigger piece.

However Shinji's feelings may may not have influenced the outcome is irrelevant as he didn't know they had any bearing outside his head.
For him, this whole bit at the end of 2.0 was about finding his own authentic motivation outside pleasing Gendo or intellctualized claims of altruism - Hence the parallel to Misato saying that it was, to an extent, about her own hops for her, and how she cheers at his declaration at first, before he blacks out and loses control of the EVA. No one really told him what the EVA is.


We don't fully know what exatly happened in the time skip except that there was a lot - Did NTI directly cause all that or did it set the foundations? I don't think any of the "he didn't do it" theories make any thematic sense but we don't know the exact mechanics, ie, how the outcome could have been different.


See how Mari, who fully understands that, does have some measure of situational 'get your act together' going on but doesn't otherwise bear any animosity toward Shinji.


I agree with most of this: Gendo is the mastermind behind all that happens in 3.0 except maybe for the ending, but he doesn't consider it a major loss. Shinji was just a trigger that got pushed by many things all together, and I include Misato and Asuka in this: they pushed Shinji to be more active, to do something "for himself" or "to be a man". While they may or may not realise that in 3.0 is unclear but it has to come out at some point in Final, it's vital for both the plot and for all three characters.
They even pushed Shinji back to Gendo, he preferred to risk to die and join his father (which at the end of 2.0 wasn't really his best buddy) than bear another minute of what they were doing to him. They are three people and all at fault but only Shinji is accused.

View Original PostKendrix#853089 wrote:As for Misato and Asuka, you'd have to talk definitions about what you'd consider hatred or hateful treatment and wether you mean some cartoonish thing, but there's certainly contempt and indifference.

Asuka's the one who is completely unsympathetic and cold, whereas Misato is holding back some lingering affection simply because maternal/familial bonds don't go away so easily, but she's always had certain captain ahab tendencies and was often conflicted between hate & love felt towards the same person in the past.

Their situation also has to be seen in the concept of 14 years of post-apocalyptic hell, how that utterly eclipses the brief time they knew Shinji (especially in Asuka' case) and a fundamentally changed world even more ruthless than the one before - Nobody has time or ressources for one single kid because it's war.
Though we mostly see her cold & ruthless side from Shinji's PoV, Misato is ostensibly beloved & admired by her subordinates as a determined, optimistic leader.


I don't think ther's indifference between Shinji/Asuka/Misato in the movie. There's indifference from Gendo maybe, but neither Asuka or Misato are ever indifferent to Shinji.

Misato first made the medical team rush to her place with Shinji and she had no real reason to see him since she didn't do anything, Ritsuko activated the bomb. The only real thing she does is letting Shinji escape, de facto doing something as risky as giving a nuke to ISIS in our world. She knew Gendo would have tried to start another Impact.

Asuka probably feel the polar opposite of indifference when she's with Shinji: she just punch, fight, scream for anger and for him to help her. It's exactly what she would have done 14 years before. Obviously she didn't grow and that's a major factor in this, she didn't even have something or someone to move on.

I think Mary is probably the really "cold" character here: she doesn't do anything that has some particular impact for her.

View Original PostKendrix#853089 wrote:"Do something, [responsible person]", and not killing someone on sight do not indicate sympathy or caring; They just indicate not being a cartoon villain. They drew a number on his naked feet, kept him in a cell (so there goes your "no time to explain"), go out of their way to show their disdain mostly in a contained, "I have work to do" manner that they still don't bother to fully restrain, everything about the way they look at him and the language they use conveys absolute disdain, aaand it's played right into Gendo's hands.


Shinji was supposed to be dead when Asuka screamed for help, everyone at Willie believed him dead years ago. Would you scream for help from someone who you hate in her situation? I suspect neither of us would do it, I'll prefer to die, especially being as proud as Asuka is. But as we can see in the movie Shinji helping Asuka is something more than just a desperate call, it is something said twice by Asuka and once by Mary. They both have such a limited amount of screentime that for them to insist so much on it is really peculiar, there's definitly something going on and is more than a simple "you did X so fix it now".

Misato has pretty much 5 minutes of screentime so it's hard to judge her. We see her unable to pull the trigger or being a bit cryptic saying "Shinji-kun" in a worried way. Im not totally against the points you make and in general I would agree with you but the fact that both of them have shown nothing more that a conflicted heart is too obvious to not be something done on purpose. Especially the trigger scene and both times Asuka ask Shinji for help (or scold him for not helping) are pretty focused on that: Misato is with her arm raised and there's nothing else going on, Asuka and Shinji are both times alone, they mean something.

View Original PostKendrix#853089 wrote:But again, so did ~ALL~ of them, especially Shinji, and including Mari and Kaworu who were the only ones to fully realize it.

I'd say that they do hate or at least didain him (moments of being conlicted don't detract from that), but it also has to be noted that the point of that is not Asuka or Misato being bad people - though their actions were rong and counterproductive, they are understandable - but that the post-impact world and war/desaster in general is just that horrible.

Since day one, Shinji has been crushed by the terrible stakes beyond anything a child his age should endure, in 1.11 Shinji outright says, "If I fail everyone will hate me", and, that's not just teenage anxiety talking that's a real risk because, you think people will care much about his circumstances when they lose their loved ones and livelihoods? Also, the EVAs have always been set up as frightening & barely controllable 'pocalypse achines.

So, that makes a scenario where an EVA goes out of control and ruins everythng a logical and interesting scenario to explore, a kind of 'personal hell' scenario where Shinji is separated from his loved ones and his recurring nightmare seems to have come true, at least as far as he's aware (Because, does he know Misato spared him?), as a means to test him further.


I've never said they'll be bad people for hating Shinji, it is something understandable since he's dead and he cannot defend himself from what they are accusing him of, but that would cut all the internal conflict from them, they'll be "good guys" fighting "bad guys" in a very black and white scenario and therefore un-Evangelion. There's always some conflict in the relationships all characters have: Shinji hates his father but still want some praises from him; Asuka wanted to be the best to prove that she can do it on her own but still needed someone close to her heart; Misato hated her father but loved Kaji 'cause he was like her father. Having them torned by not being able to hate Shinji would fit well into the universe.

I also agree that the personal hell scenario would be a great thing, but it doesn't require Asuka and Misato really hating him, Shinji "just" need to be sure they hate him and the end of 3.0 I'm pretty sure he does 'cause he hates himself and can't even imagine someone loving the failure he thinks to be.

View Original PostBagheera#853093 wrote:When you do a bad thing, and then proceed to do it again after everyone and their grandmother tells you not to, I think a certain amount of contempt is warranted. That doesn't not equate to hatred so much as anger and frustration. Also remember that no one else saw what Gendo did to Shinji while he was at Nerv (heck, for all they knew he had defected and joined his father of his own free will -- how would they know any different?).


I'm pretty sure Misato knows how Gendo likes to act having worked for him for years, no one really expected anything different than a manipulative behavior. Mary at the end of the movie implies that she knows Shinji's been manipulated. Asuka hears Shinji saying that he's doing something to fix the mess he's accused of having done and so she too knew he was manipulated.

View Original PostLennik#853102 wrote:I'm gonna second Bags' point and call this debatable. You generally don't cry out for someone you hate to come and rescue you. Especially if they're supposed to be dead.


The fact that he was supposed to be dead flew over my head at first but it is really crucial. They had all those years to make Shinji something to hate, the culprit and yet when he come back to life he was the same stupid guy he was before, he cared about everyone and Rei.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby The Cruel » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:13 pm

If Asuka and Kats would've hated Shinji in 3.0, then they would've been worse to him than they finally were. It isn't to deny that Asuka could've died if Shinji or Unit 01 didn't react to her. Kats on the other hand hesitated to use the choker despite Rits request. And Mari as being Asukas partner seems to know how she is towards him, even when she denies it. Though even if they don't hate him, they would still be angry at him for their reasons and they could do with him what ever they want now. They won't put the velvet gloves on and his life lies in their hands. And any situation in 3.0 seemed like they could've gone as far as to kill him for the simple fact that he's about to screw it up again. But even if they would kill him, even when the fate of humanity is at stake, it won't make things any better for all of them and now Shinji won't believe in anything anymore, neither for a chance or forgivness.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Lennik » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:56 pm

I'm pretty sure most of the people who are convinced Misato and Asuka hated Shinji made up their minds before they had a chance to see the movie on an actual screen in full quality.

Personally, finally getting the movie on DVD threw me off that train immediately. The anger is there, but it was waaaay overblown, especially around here, when the movie was first released.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:14 pm

If Misato especially hated Shinji, then she would have let him stew inside Unit 01 as it orbited Earth. If all it takes to power the Wunder is an Eva Unit, then I'm sure Units 02 and 08 could have taken alternate shifts being a battery. Unit 01 and its pilot wouldn't been needed or even tolerated if the hatred for Shinji was as great as people claim.

As for Asuka, I dunno, she punched a glass, I guess. I guess she hates him exactly that much for exactly that long, and no more.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:23 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'm sure Units 02 and 08 could have taken alternate shifts being a battery.

Um, no. We even see Unit-02's battery go flat when Asuka is trying to stop Shinji. Unit-01 has taken an S2 engine on board* - that's the difference.

* Yeah, I know they don't actually say that in Rebuild, but becoming awakened seems to have some equivalence, at least.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:44 pm

"Hate" is a confusing word. The association with contexts like "hate crimes" kind of results in "hate" being something of a dirty word. We like to distance ourselves from it with platitudes like "hate the act / behavior, not the person". All too easy to forget here that love and hate can in fact coexist... and you can absolutely hate someone without wanting to actually go out and lynch them.

I'd be surprised if Misato and Asuka didn't hate him at least a little. But there's love there, too.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:05 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:"Hate" is a confusing word. The association with contexts like "hate crimes" kind of results in "hate" being something of a dirty word. We like to distance ourselves from it with platitudes like "hate the act / behavior, not the person". All too easy to forget here that love and hate can in fact coexist... and you can absolutely hate someone without wanting to actually go out and lynch them.


This. Sometimes hate (as all other negative emotions) is an appropriate response designed to protect you.
I don't think it's appropiate in this case, but, I can see how it could feel that way from their PoVs/ perceive this as a betrayal.

Also Misato's whole character has always been built upon a foundation like that, she hates her father yet wants to avange him because he saved her, she's annoyed by Kaji but was also very happy in their relationship, and well, now she seems to loathe Shinji & more crucially, needs to coldly and efficiently command WILLE, but he's still the closest thing she ever had to a son (more so now that she's probably too old to have biological children) so she couldn't press that trigger.

Like, we have all these horror films where a parent is in denial about their kid being a monster, your mother is the one person who'd have the greatest chnce of still love you if you became a murderer so yeah. It's not a bond that ever completely goes away even if it's distroyed, distorted and twisted. But all she did was desist from murdering him.

Much like Shinji didn't want anything to do with Gendo since bardiel but can't help but react a little when he flat out ignores him after giving him some orders.

That aside, they definitely needed EVA 01 specifically - bc S2 engine or because it was awakened, whatever, but the point of that mission was to get EVA 01 to have a fighting chance against neo nerv - Finding Shinji was just a side effect/risk, perhaps one they did not even expect and you can tell that it's thrown everybody exept Mari (who knows that he's just an unwitting pawn in this) and Ritsuko (who was never that attached to him in the first place & thus wouldn't feel betrayed, and is the most level-headed person) into some emotional turmoil.
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