Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:16 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:This. Sometimes hate (as all other negative emotions) is an appropriate response designed to protect you.
I don't think it's appropiate in this case, but, I can see how it could feel that way from their PoVs/ perceive this as a betrayal.


If you don't think it's appropriate why do you keep insisting it's there? Also, you left out the most important part of Reichu's post:

View Original PostReichu wrote:I'd be surprised if Misato and Asuka didn't hate him at least a little. But there's love there, too.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:39 pm

Shinji's experiencing the hedgehog's dilemma. He poked Misato and Asuka with his spines and he's getting poked in return. He left a lot of baggage behind when he retreated into Unit 01 with Rei, and Misato and Asuka's toes were stepped on the hardest. It was going to catch up to him whether 3.0 took place 14 days or 14 years in the future.

Asuka's just Asuka. She tried to punch him in the face once, gave him a shove and then saved his life after she couldn't bring herself to leave him behind. Keep in mind that she tried to start fights with Rei twice over nothing. She has some sour grapes over something that happened in the past, but mostly she's frustrated because he's still acting like a selfish child. She's not wrong about that.

I get the impression that Misato is trying to keep him at arm's length. Maybe she's trying to keep herself from getting hurt again, or vice versa? She's mostly distant and dispassionate toward him unless Eva is involved. Then she gets pissed off. Misato could have kneecapped Nerv and Seele in one move if she'd killed Shinji when she had the chance, but she opted to stand down and left him to his own devices until he made himself Wille's problem again. She could be in serious shit with her superiors in Wille if they dig into the circumstances of 4th Impact and find out about that.

Shinji took extreme measures to get what he wanted twice over, and anger and distrust are very reasonable reactions to the actions he took and their consequences regardless of his intentions. I see it as a cautionary tale to avoid him turning into Gendo. They're a lot alike. Just replace "Nerv" with "Unit 01" and "Yui" with "Rei." But Gendo is a distant person who exists on his own little island with Fuyutsuki. Shinji has other living people he cares about and who care about him, so when he follows in his father's footsteps, he eats the backlash full-force.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:43 am

Do Asuka and Misato HATE him? No. Are they pissed at Shinji? Yes.

The real question is if they have a right to. Shinji's made his mistakes and done a lot of evil shit, both by accident and not, but the trade-off is Misato's more or less been using him for the past three movies. She projected all of her own desires onto him--that car ride, the one where she talks about Shinji giving his father a chance? She's wanting to resolve her own daddy issues through Shinji. The encouragement to kill the Angels? That's her wanting to kill them but not being able to pilot herself. And let's not forget her helping to blackmail him into piloting in the first place. That whole mess was going to blow up in her face no matter what, it was just a question of when.

Asuka meanwhile has tried to kill him at least twice, which should tell you something in itself. I know that one scene with her running out of the shower was played for laughs but Shinji's reaction to it most certainly was not. Neither was Misato's cool indifference, which turned out to be foreshadowing...
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Lennik » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:19 pm

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:Asuka meanwhile has tried to kill him at least twice, which should tell you something in itself.


When? The only time I could conceivably believe this happened is in the climax of 3.0, and he was in danger of inadvertently ending the world there. Afterwards, she has the chance to leave him for dead in his entry plug, and instead she saves him.

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:I know that one scene with her running out of the shower was played for laughs but Shinji's reaction to it most certainly was not. Neither was Misato's cool indifference, which turned out to be foreshadowing...


You're overthinking a scene that only exists for tsundere anime slapstick. His face turns cartoonishly red and he's foaming at the mouth after she kicks him. Misato's indifference has little to do with foreshadowing. It's entirely played for laughs.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:14 pm

I recently watched the NTE films with a bunch of friends who were watching it for the first time. Asuka running out of the bath naked was the hilarious highlight of Eva Ha. That whole scene is callback to Shinji's running naked out of the bath. If there's foreshadowing in Misato's reaction in one, then there's also foreshadowing in the other, which is to say that there probably isn't any. (Misato's critique on her own reaction, however, is foreshadowing no matter how you slice it, but more about how she opens up to others and less about how she feels about Shinji.)

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:49 am

View Original PostLennik wrote:You're overthinking a scene that only exists for tsundere anime slapstick. His face turns cartoonishly red and he's foaming at the mouth after she kicks him. Misato's indifference has little to do with foreshadowing. It's entirely played for laughs.


But isn't overthinking every detail, pretty much what EGF is doing with eva since the beginning of time? :P

Also that still works very well as a forshadowing. Here it's humoristic. Later it's a dark reprise.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:01 am

^ But a "dark reprise" of what? I don't see any thematic connection between the two scenes.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Stillborn » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:18 am

Well, I see but I'm bad at explaining.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:20 pm

I don't think the blame we hear from his fellow crew members really blame Shinji sincerely. I think it is merely that he played a key role in the devastation of the world. He did not plan it, know of it or desire it but his finger was on the trigger. Shinji in turn can't apologize for it because he can't understand it. It's a fascinating reversal of the emotional transformation pilothood offers to Shinji - the idea that if he is given the chance to save the world it will rescue him from the anxiety, fear and self-loathing (the true alternate Shinji isn't the one in episode 26 but the cheeky, confident one we see in episode 16 before it is utterly shattered by drowning in the horror of an alien consciousness) And so when he has his hand in destroying the world he is cast into a pit of degradation. Didn't he do that before though?

our boy hero pilot wrote: Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.


Remember that old show 'This Is Your Life'? Once they hosted Hiroshima survivor and author of 'White Light Black Rain' Kiyoshi Tanimoto. It's been a while so let's just remind ourselves - every new guest was kept a secret and spoke from behind a screen into a microphone into the studio where the reaction of the guest could be recorded before their mystery would be brought to meet them. Rev. Tanimoto heard this:

and looking down from thousands of feet over Hiroshima all I could think of was my god what have we done


They had brought to meet Rev. Tanimoto Captain Robert Lewis - a crewman of the plane that covered the whole world with the shadow of the bomb.

On the other hand Curtis Le May was Ed Wallace's running mate so idk.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:09 pm

They slapped a kill switch to his neck and answered all his questions with vague cryptic responses. I'm not going to explicitly say they hate him, but any argument of them actually caring for him is going to be quite a stretch.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Joseki » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:55 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:They slapped a kill switch to his neck and answered all his questions with vague cryptic responses. I'm not going to explicitly say they hate him, but any argument of them actually caring for him is going to be quite a stretch.


First of all when they put the choker on him they didn't know he really was Shinji since his indentity was only confirmed on the deck. Then while Ritsuko urged Misato to kill him because he's the final piece in Gendo's plan, and Gendo is the man Misato, Wille and everyone in the movie has tried to stop for 14 years risking their life, she couldn't do it. I don't know how important it is the fact that he had the choker compared to how they couldn't push the button.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Lennik » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:57 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote: I'm not going to explicitly say they hate him, but any argument of them actually caring for him is going to be quite a stretch.


Not if you watch the film.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:00 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I don't know how important it is the fact that he had the choker compared to how they couldn't push the button.


I think the fact she couldn't push the button is the only thing that matters here. No argument that she hates him can survive against that one plain and simple fact -- she had the means to kill him and every excuse in the world to do it, and she couldn't. Any pretense of hatred is annihilated in the face of that.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:11 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:I don't know how important it is the fact that he had the choker compared to how they couldn't push the button.

Which is why I'm not saying they hate him, but they certainly don't have much care either. The choker was still set to activate in the event of an awakening, and as far as the movie goes to show, Misato has no idea it was on Kaworu when it went off.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Geometer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:23 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:Which is why I'm not saying they hate him, but they certainly don't have much care either. The choker was still set to activate in the event of an awakening, and as far as the movie goes to show, Misato has no idea it was on Kaworu when it went off.

She still couldn't bring herself to do it manually and had it preset to blow in the worse possible situation, I don't think you can blame her.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:29 pm

View Original PostGeometer wrote:She still couldn't bring herself to do it manually and had it preset to blow in the worse possible situation, I don't think you can blame her.

I'm not blaming her, I'm just responding to the implications that they actually had some sort of care for him, that care though was clearly that of a prisoner with a slight level of unjust resentment. But that topic has been debated to death.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Geometer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:57 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I'm not blaming her, I'm just responding to the implications that they actually had some sort of care for him, that care though was clearly that of a prisoner with a slight level of unjust resentment. But that topic has been debated to death.

If she didn't care for him she would have killed him when she had the chance. Having the bomb set to an awakening doesn't mean she doesn't care for him at all. It is possible to kill someone you care in these desperate circumstances, we are talking about the end of the world after all.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:08 pm

View Original PostGeometer wrote:If she didn't care for him she would have killed him when she had the chance. Having the bomb set to an awakening doesn't mean she doesn't care for him at all. It is possible to kill someone you care in these desperate circumstances, we are talking about the end of the world after all.

If she cared for him as someone more than just a prisoner she wouldn't have attached it in the first place and worked on actually having Shinji trust her and the rest of Wille instead of giving him the treatment he got.
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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Geometer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:15 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:If she cared for him as someone more than just a prisoner she wouldn't have attached it in the first place and worked on actually having Shinji trust her and the rest of Wille instead of giving him the treatment he got.

Its been 14 years of war due to no small part to him, and he is potentially still very dangerous. I think she does care but her first priority is to make sure another impact doesn't happen. That must go ahead of any feelings she has for him, which at this point she probably is conflicted about still having.

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Re: Did Asuka and Misato really hate Shinji in 3.0?

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:51 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I'm not blaming her, I'm just responding to the implications that they actually had some sort of care for him, that care though was clearly that of a prisoner with a slight level of unjust resentment.


Nope. If that was the case she would have pushed the button when he escaped.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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