Depth of Shinji and Rei's relationship

[Berserker]

I couldn't find an appropriate thread for this post, and creating a new one seemed stupid to me. So i thought this is the closest relevant thread.

Ok, so i actually don't care when people meme the hell out of something. It's internet. Like any other eva meme, i saw this one many times, took in the sarcasm and scrolled by. But what really struck me as completely ridiculous is that a lot of people actually take this seriously. They really think this will be the aftermath if Shinji and Rei ended up together and they actually fight over it.

SPOILER: Show

For those of you who don't know, this is actually a sarcastic edit of this certain scene from GoS2. The obvious reason for the edit was to tease people who ship r/s. But since some people are so ignorant about how the edit is completely correct, i had to make logical explanation of how much of a blasphemy this is.

First of all, Rei isn't lilith, neither Yui. She's a being of her own. I agree that she has lilith and Yui's DNA. But that doesn't prove anything. She's biologically classified as a lilin. Now there's a question about her infertility, which isn't completely proven and a whole other point. The thing is, if she had a child maybe it could've had weird physical trait like unnatural body ,hair, retina colour. For that, there also lies a question about parental trait division. But that's also another point. From the biological standpoint, there's no way their child would be an angel or something. It would be a human, but maybe with unusual physical trait like Rei by the chance of 50-50.
Then, if the divided soul of lilith thing is really bothering, then i gotta say lilith is the progenitor of fruit of knowledge based lives. There's no possible way that if lilith makes a child with Shinji, it would be a angel. Now the question arises that if Kaworu made child with a lilin, would it be half angel-human or something? NO.Despite his classification as tabris and his soul being the whole soul of adam, he's again biologically lilin with some trait of adam. Now about the ability to manifest A.T field, it's specified that A.T field is just a spiritual barrier. The ability to manifest it has nothing to do with one's physical classification. Kaworu has the complete soul of adam, so he is able to use it physically. While in EoE, only after the merging of all part of lilith's soul, Rei was able to manifest physical A.T field. Because only that's when Rei's soul was lilith's whole soul,and that's the only moment you can call Rei lilith's avatar. This is also a whole other point. Now the thing is, adam,the being of light, being the progenitor of fruit of life based lives aka angels, accidentally made a child with an unknown lilin donor whom we don't know. The child is Kaworu. In this case, if a normal human and a being of light,progenitor of angels made a human offspring whose biological traits are completely lilin then Kaworu making child with lilin will obviously result in a human and thus Rei's offspring being angel is complete negative. Again, A.T field is completely spiritual, not biological.
Lastly, if Rei was indeed lilith, even if biologically, then also the child would just get weird physical trait with the chance of 50-50. The soul of the child would be a random lilin soul from guf. Thus the chance of the child having the physical appearance of an angel and the ability of manifesting A.T field is negative.
Extra point: There's no logic behind Rei being Yui, thus r/s incest. Rei didn't give birth to Shinji. She has only the genes of Yui. Yui's soul is in eva. If Rei had Yui's soul, even a part of it, then i would've considered it incest. Not to mention we share 50% genes with a banana. Now the theory of lilith being the progenitor of fruit of knowledge base lives, mother of humankind, thus r/s incest. Again, Rei's not lilith. She's a being of her own. Unlike Kaworu, her soul's a divided part of lilith's soul, thus a whole new being. As i said earlier-

I don't think anyone can be a single/whole avatar of adam kadmon. Your theory suggests that kami's got divided into adam and lilith both physically and spiritually. So,the newly created souls are now individual souls. Adam's soul completely goes to kaworu. So, it's safe to say kaworu's a avatar of adam. But lilith's soul gets divided 3(2 times if you think unit 00 has naoko's soul) times.Rei is a being of its own. But Rei III (I+II+Unit 00's soul)+remaining part of lilith's soul in lilith's body combined=lilith. Then they can be referred to as lilith's avatar. What i'm trying to say is, if you divide a soul, it creates completely new being. Then, Kami's avatar is Adam+lilith. This completely comes of the kabbalistic belief,as every soul of every living is part of the primordial Adam kadmon's soul. But since every living thing is a being of its own, then we can also tell that Rei is a being of her own. This is not about belief,more of a reference. Think of it as mitosis of soul.

If r/s is considered incest, then from the kabbalistic standpoint humankind can be referred to as a giant selfcest orgy. This point is rather invalid for the main topic of my post, but relevant for the thread's subject. So i added it.

Now forgive me if any of the explanations are incorrect by facts and pure logic.

[Lavinius]

The primary argument against incest is that the similarity of genes makes reproduction dangerous since it increases the probability of deleterious recessive genes being expressed, and other such eugenic concerns. Whether or not they were physically born from the same womb is irrelevant. Also, whether or not humans share half of our genome with a banana, two individual, even "unrelated" humans (all are related to some degree, of course) certainly share well over 99% of their genes with each other- which apparently about as much as even Shamshiel shares with us (or, with her it's apparently a spectral pattern resembling a genome, but,), so Lilith probably shares even more.

Of course, there are no deleterious genes in Rei's sacred genome, so the fact is that LRS is incest, and that this is good and holy (cf. Isis & Osiris, Sigmund & Signý &c.)

[silvermoonlight]

I know people who love this pairing and I'm not going step on their toes in any way, as I belive ship what you want to ship so long as you age it up or down. (Like with Kaji or Misato if you're pairing them with the pilots)There is one factor though that could make Shinji/Rei possible in the canon and that's the mix of angel (Lilith) DNA as we don't know how they function or what their reproduction is like as it may be vastly different from our own yes Lilith created humanity, but we have no idea what the race was like who created seeding eggs or what the angels do on their own planets.

It may also mean this gets rid off the problematic issue with inbreeding and not cause cell degradation in the next generation or could even erase it all together as its alien not human as by EOE Rei's genetics are no longer breaking down there fully stabilized after Adam is added to mix, and she merges with Lilith. I also know some fanfiction writers have gotten around this issue by saying Rei could be in fact by Ritsuko's younger sister as her mothers eggs were used after her suicide to grow the first Rei which the others get cloned from.

[Berserker]

The post was to prove that there's no chance their offspring won't end up being an angel, if they are able to reproduce. Now that's explained. So the other things...

Whether or not they were physically born from the same womb is irrelevant.

But every known example of incest is incest because they're either from the same womb, as given in your examples, or they're blood relations like son-mother, aunt-nephew. And i can see neither of these as they're not from the same womb neither they have blood relations like that.

so the fact is that LRS is incest

Just because they share a lot of genes they're incest? Shamshiel shares 99.89%. Humans obviously share more with each other. No one can share 100% with each other because that's pure clone or identical twins(Rei with the other Reis can). Now, Shinji shares almost 50% with Yui,50% with Gendo. Presumably, Rei shares 50% from each Yui and lilith. From the 50% of Yui, approximately 33% will match with Shinji. The rest 27% is Yui's random genes which doesn't match with Shinji. Now, the other lilith half of Rei's genes will almost match with Shinji's. I mean, if we take the 50% of Rei's lilith genes as 100%, it will match 99.95-99.98%. That's approximately 49.985% of Rei's lilith matching with Shinji. Now from early scientific research, all humans share 99.95% with any other human on this planet. So, lets just assume because of the lilith part Shinji and Rei will 99.98% match. That's still no 100% and they're absolutely no twins.And calling it incest just from genetic perspective just seems bizarre to me, as it doesn't match 100%.And blood relation is not only about genes. I mean, i can share 99% genes with my girlfriend. Does that mean it's incest? Something about genes in this thread that i agree with and found lol-able:

People don't magically recognize ppl they share genes with; Real Life People have absolutely boinked their siblings and even parents without noticing anything out of the ordinary because they did not know they were related. Genes are not magic.

Also there was a scientific research that people subconsciously tend to find both physical and mental similarities in their partners. Not true for everyone, but still true for most. And from spiritual standpoint, the whole thing about Rei being lilith is incorrect, thus nowhere near being incest from that perspective.

I also know some fanfiction writers have gotten around this issue by saying Rei could be in fact by Ritsuko's younger sister as her mothers eggs were used after her suicide to grow the first Rei which the others get cloned from.

I also read somewhere that the unknown donor of contact experiment with adam could be old man Katsuragi. Although there's no proof for that, but that could result in Kaworu being Misato's brother. That's just a conjection and not the point here.

Ok, an offtopic question arised discussing this: Kaworu was born during the contact experiment with adam. But for him to survive till 2015, someone must have had to carry him from Antarctica. That means the survivor of 2I is more than two people. Misato,Kaworu and one or more than one people whom transported him back to seele. Obviously, Misato didn't do it.

[Lavinius]

So, lets just assume because of the lilith part Shinji and Rei will 99.98% match. That's still no 100% and they're absolutely no twins.And calling it incest just from genetic perspective just seems bizarre to me, as it doesn't match 100%.And blood relation is not only about genes. I mean, i can share 99% genes with my girlfriend. Does that mean it's incest?

No, because 99% similarity or so is shared between all humans. It's the 99.999999999999% or so that you have to watch out for.

The genetic argument against incest is that it's dysgenic, that it tends to produce unhealthy children. And it's not really about genetic similarity in general, it's about specific deleterious & recessive alleles (and like things; I'm not a geneticist) which require two copies to be harmful. If two persons descended from the person in whom the deleterious mutation originated mate, their children have a much higher likelihood of inheriting two of the recessive alleles and thus manifesting the disease that neither of their parents expressed. This is especially true if there's many such interbreedings. But this can happen also if the persons in question are cousins, or second cousins three times removed, or have other such relations- including half-sibling, which Rei is, genetically, to Shinji.
(I assume this would apply to also to good recessive alleles. But one hears about these far less, and since the inherited diseases can be fatal or crippling, there aren't many good traits that can make the risk worth running. And of course, this also could happen with unrelated people- but with related people, the risk is much higher, and easily avoidable without needing genetic testing or family medical history.)

There are non-genetic, social arguments against incest- namely, that an unwanted relationship between household members is more difficult to escape, and that inbreeding leads to clannishness- excessive loyalty & dependence on family at the expense of loyalty & dependence on the broader society. But that's neither here nor there.

The point is, that incest is bad (on a biological level rather a social level) because of genetic similarity. Because that's what being related to something means in terms of subsequent reproduction- that the children of the union will share more of their genes. And that's the case whether they're full siblings or half-siblings, or if one of them was cloned from the other's mother (and possibly mixed with a genetically human space entity). It has nothing inherently to do with what womb they came out of.

The post was to prove that there's no chance their offspring won't end up being an angel, if they are able to reproduce. Now that's explained. So the other things...

Yes, presumably the child would be part of an Angel, namely, the ~3 billion (remember 2I!) entities that comprise the single Angel Lilin. Though it's never really clear if Rei is part of Lilin or not, or what the hell an "Angel" actually is, why the Evas and seemingly Rei aren't counted, &c.

But of course a child of Sachiel & Shamshiel wouldn't necessarily look anything like Sachiel or Shamshiel either, since their natural, genetic form is a human one, like the Evas'- their distinct shapes are chosen by the wills alone, not by their genetics.

And from spiritual standpoint, the whole thing about Rei being lilith is incorrect, thus nowhere near being incest from that perspective.

Um, no, Rei literally is Lilith (or the highest soul-elements of Lilith; some part of her is in Zerogouki and in the original body) in a (quasi-)Lilin body. She's the same soul, she's the same person, just traumatically severed from her past being.

[Berserker]

"The child would be unhealthy, will have disability" topic never came up. I do understand what you're trying to prove, but again that's not the point here.

Yes, presumably the child would be part of an Angel

An angel classified as lilin with weird physical trait like Rei by the chance of 50-50.

Rei literally is Lilith

"No", says kabbalistic belief. It doesn't matter if you believe or not, it's a reference which was used in NGE.

The most prominent symbolism takes its inspiration from Christian sources and frequently uses iconography and themes from Christianity, Islam, Gnosticism, and Kabbalism, in the series's examination of religious ideas and themes. Anno suggested a grand theme with the work including the nature of evolution, the existence of God and its impact on humanity

And from kabbalistic belief, why's she not lilith, but a being of her own is explained already.
Also from definition, incest is about sexual relation with blood relative. As for blood relation, it is something you have from birth. Your parents gave you birth, it's blood relation. You came from the same womb with your sibling,it's blood relation. Your mom or dad has brothers and sisters, it's blood relation. There's no such thing in between Rei and Shinji. Now from the moral perspective, blood relation as in from the spiritual side matters more. You know your sister has her own soul. Now if she suddenly gets body swapped with your partner, and if you don't even know, then that's incest. Cause your partner has your sister's soul for that moment. As what happened with sigmund and signy(well, except the sorceress wasn't related to sigmund. Just the basic conception). All i want to say, spiritual side matters more if you judge some relation as incest. And Rei has lilith's divided soul,thus a new being. Again, kabbalistic reference.

As i can see, this arguement will never settle. Everyone gave their points and logic. If somebody still have some question, read the whole thread or stay by your opinion. As for Lavinius, i can only say it's your perspective, you think your facts are correct then it's correct. I have given mine, there's nothing more to do. Maybe try reading Kendrix's post for the last time.

[Derantor]

I fail to see any difference between "blood relation" and "genetic relation". It really doesn't matter if you were born from the same womb or from a test tube/maturation chamber. The amount of genes Rei takes from Yui is indeterminate, as far as I can see, and could range from 0 to 100%; even at fifty percent, that would make her roughly equivalent to being Shinji's half sister (half of his mother's genes, half of somebody else). I can't speak to the morality of having sex with your sister if she is inhabiting a body that shares no genetic relationship with your own. That's a matter of personal morality; there is no reason to condemn it based on concerns over the offspring's health, which is the only quantifiable objection one could raise.

[Lavinius]

An angel classified as lilin with weird physical trait like Rei by the chance of 50-50.

No, there wouldn't be an a Angel "classified" as Lilin, since Lilin is itself already a single Angel. "Angel" refers to 18 things in Eva- Adam, Lilith, Adam's 14 children, Tabris (who shouldn't be counted with Adam's other children), and the Lilin (as a whole). Neither Rei nor the Evas seem to be included, even though you'd think they would be, since Rei and Kaworu are obviously basically the same sort of being, and the Evas are clones of Adam & Lilith. So there's no real reason to think that Rei's child would be an "Angel", because the terminology is so odd.

(Personally I'm of the opinion that "Angel" refers to some specific set of entities prophecied in the DSS, whereas Rei & the Evas were not prophecied, but made by Gendou & Seele to manipulate events).

Unless you mean Angel in the narrower meaning- one of Adam's 14 children. But Rei obviously has nothing to do with those, and neither would her children.

"No", says kabbalistic belief. It doesn't matter if you believe or not, it's a reference which was used in NGE.

And from kabbalistic belief, why's she not lilith, but a being of her own is explained already.
Also from definition, incest is about sexual relation with blood relative. As for blood relation, it is something you have from birth. Your parents gave you birth, it's blood relation. You came from the same womb with your sibling,it's blood relation. Your mom or dad has brothers and sisters, it's blood relation. There's no such thing in between Rei and Shinji. Now from the moral perspective, blood relation as in from the spiritual side matters more. You know your sister has her own soul. Now if she suddenly gets body swapped with your partner, and if you don't even know, then that's incest. Cause your partner has your sister's soul for that moment. As what happened with sigmund and signy(well, except the sorceress wasn't related to sigmund. Just the basic conception). All i want to say, spiritual side matters more if you judge some relation as incest. And Rei has lilith's divided soul,thus a new being. Again, kabbalistic reference.

As i can see, this arguement will never settle. Everyone gave their points and logic. If somebody still have some question, read the whole thread or stay by your opinion. As for Lavinius, i can only say it's your perspective, you think your facts are correct then it's correct. I have given mine, there's nothing more to do. Maybe try reading Kendrix's post for the last time.

Eva uses Qabbalah as a mythological source, but it's far from a direct adaption; saying that something is the case in Qabbalah so it must be so in Eva is as much a mistake as saying that the Qabbalah doesn't matter. Moreover, I can't see where you explain how Rei isn't Lilith according to Qabbalah anyway- it doesn't seem to be in any of your earlier posts in this thread.

Your definition of incest is curious- what would you call sexual relations with a genetic (but not "blood", though blood is there just the antique way of saying genetic) relation, then?

As for Sigmund & Signý, the translation I can find states that Signý and the witch exchanged "semblances", not that their souls switched between bodies- they only looked like each other. Indeed, the notion of a discrete soul that could leave a body and travel back and forth isn't natural to the Norse cosmology (though I suppose a witch might be able to do that, but I don't see any reason to think that was done here). It's unclear if this exchange of semblences was merely illusory, or if Signý's genetics were actually changed also. But even if she was genetically the witch when she mated with Sigmund, by your definition it would still be incest (because of their spiritual kinship) and Sinfjötli would be a child of incest. (Perhaps I'll look into the original Norse word translated as "semblance" later.)

I have a very high regard for Kendrix, and she makes some very good points there, but I'm not seeing what she says there that's of much relevance to this particular topic. She says that she sees Rei as her own person rather than as Lilith, but she doesn't go in depth with that part, and I must disagree. You say that Rei is only an element of Lilith's soul, and that is true. But she's clearly the conscious and rational part, the most important, and Kaworu moreover regards her as being Lilith, and when Lilith returns she presents herself as Rei, so that I would define Rei as Lilith- just with bits of her left in a few other places.