Depth of Shinji and Rei's relationship

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Postby NemZ » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:45 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Rei's betrayal comes at the point where Yui is being the focus of a 3I ritual, and when Rei has clearly heard some sort of psychic emanation. Whetehr it's modelling Yui's thought processes or morphic field resonance or whatever, there is scope for a decision based on the different models of 3I being proposed.


I sorta figured she already decided to betray him when the glasses got crunched and left on her floor, then she simply waited until his actions forced her to act on that decision.

Something was going on up there involving two Ikari's, but seeing all her attention wrapped around Shinji from that point forward I think it's safe to guess which one she meant.
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Postby Formless One » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:54 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:That she didn't? That if she did any relationship she forms while running from it would be based on a lie?

The argument pertains to a what-if scenario, as found in fanfiction. Which was the part of the greater discussion this point pertains to. And the idea is that the lie is for the good of the person she has the relationship with. Lies are not always bad, you know.

So how exactly could she escape it really?

By not going anywhere near Terminal Dogma and living a human life as long as possible? Just saying, there are ways of at least delaying the inevitable until the time comes when she is ready to face the truth. After all, a little more maturity couldn't hurt her.

Lol Gendo, should have thought that through better.

Again, in the what-if scenario we're talking about, others could fulfill the role Gendo fulfills. Obviously.

Otherwise, I wouldn't deny what you said as true.

Who would have given a damn? Gendo? We know what he wants. Shinji? We saw his reaction. No one cared sorry to say.

*cough*what-if scenario*cough*

Frankly, I do think such a scenario would have to be pretty contrived, but it could happen depending on the point of deviation in the timeline, and without changing canon personalities either!

Oh so she's human but human laws don't apply to her??? Lolwut?

Really? How? Considering it was never the basis of my point it can go do something crude and explicit.

Answers to both: Human laws as in "you shouldn't kill" or "no stealing" or "this is copyrighted" or "you must have American citizenship to be considered American." In other words, the analogy is imperfect, but simply attacking it for one technical flaw is the same as nitpicking over semantics. It totally pointless, and doesn't further your point. If you have one...

And the second part is that the laws I mentioned are reference to classification. She would be classified as a human by the way she acts, presents herself, her personality, etc.. But since you already agreed on this, why are we still arguing about it?

What species are we? Oh yeah, the one that spits in the face of the so called laws of nature on a daily basis.

A saying that is far too common and chalked so much with misunderstanding that it really ought to die. Laws of nature are laws of the f*cking universe. You cannot break those, by definition. [/rant]

I have said Lilith is human many times. I don't see your point.

Again, I don't know why we are still arguing this one. And yet we are. Why is that?

You miss the point. Lilith is a being 4 billion years old from another freaking planet. What kind of relationship can such a being realisticly have with someone that kicks the bucket in under a century? Let's not even get started on her quantum powers...

A human one. Based on a lie, as you said. It would last until Shinji dies. In time, she might forge a new identity for herself, meet new people, maybe even change her form to keep up the charade and seem young again. You know, romantic/sentimental shit like that. Nothing says it can't happen, barring it not being within her character/personality. Use your imagination!

No worries, it's just a meme.

Well, now I've heard them all- naaaah, there's probably more I'm missing!
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:26 pm

Formless One wrote:The argument pertains to a what-if scenario, as found in fanfiction. Which was the part of the greater discussion this point pertains to. And the idea is that the lie is for the good of the person she has the relationship with. Lies are not always bad, you know.

1. I thought you said you weren't going there
2. That lie wouldn't be good for anyone but her

By not going anywhere near Terminal Dogma and living a human life as long as possible?

Gendo kills her and pulls out a new brainwashed clone. This is why "what-if's fail.

Just saying, there are ways of at least delaying the inevitable until the time comes when she is ready to face the truth. After all, a little more maturity couldn't hurt her.

The fact that she didn't do that proves she was plenty mature.

*cough*what-if scenario*cough*

*cough*character butchering*cough*delusional thinking*cough*

Frankly, I do think such a scenario would have to be pretty contrived

Contrived is bad.

and without changing canon personalities either!

No it can't. The fact that Shinji would be used for this proves said person has zero grasp on Shinji's personality. He doesn't care about Rei's personal problems, nor anyones for that matter.

And the second part is that the laws I mentioned are reference to classification. She would be classified as a human by the way she acts, presents herself, her personality, etc.. But since you already agreed on this, why are we still arguing about it?

Cause she is still an alien.

A saying that is far too common and chalked so much with misunderstanding that it really ought to die. Laws of nature are laws of the f*cking universe. You cannot break those, by definition. [/rant]

*cough*cloning*cough*genetic manipulation*cough*

A human one. Based on a lie, as you said. It would last until Shinji dies. In time, she might forge a new identity for herself, meet new people, maybe even change her form to keep up the charade and seem young again. You know, romantic/sentimental shit like that. Nothing says it can't happen, barring it not being within her character/personality. Use your imagination!

Case in point.
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Postby Formless One » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:58 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:1. I thought you said you weren't going there
2. That lie wouldn't be good for anyone but her

1. I wasn't really, but "there" is getting vauge at this point. I guess "what-ifs" aren't for everyone. I don't read them... But I guess they can be done right, or wrong. I would at least prefer ones that are logical and based off possibilities that spring from the show, as opposed to writers fiat.

2. depends on how well the truth would go over said character. Other than that, no argument.

Gendo kills her and pulls out a new brainwashed clone. This is why "what-if's fail.

1. Why do you think Gendo would do this? He's a bastard, but considering his own affection for her, I doubt he would do such a thing.

2. Rei clones don't work that way. Memory problems in Rei III are unrelated, as I have said before in other threads. Consider that she only forgets things from fairly recent, and the way she died, and finally the fact that memories in Eva are stored in the soul, not the body. All the other characters work that way. Rei is actually proof of this, because of Rei I returning memories to Rei II to make Rei III. Memories are the basis of personality, so this means that if you cannot mess with memories, you cannot tamper with someones personality.

The fact that she didn't do that proves she was plenty mature.

No, it means she cannot think of others needs. The truth did wonderful things for Shinji. :rolleyes:

*cough*character butchering*cough*delusional thinking*cough*

Subjective argument. No concencus will ever be had on this point.

No it can't. The fact that Shinji would be used for this proves said person has zero grasp on Shinji's personality. He doesn't care about Rei's personal problems, nor anyones for that matter.

Difference between series Shinji and the dipshit we got for EoE. Shinji in the series at least had some attachment to Rei. Shinji in EoE was a total sociopath, and shouldn't be paired with anyone.

Cause she is still an alien.


you wrote:
I wrote:Broken records are broken.

Truth is true.


*cough*cloning*cough*genetic manipulation*cough*

All based off using physicall laws. Not breaking them. What people think natural law means and what it really does mean are two different things. Some people think that homosexuality is against natural law. Doesn't really mean anything, just that it repulses them. In other words, its BS, and is a bastardization/perversion of the principal of "Natural Law".

Case in point.

I don't think that was always the case...
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Postby AyrYntake » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:10 pm

NemZ wrote:I sorta figured she already decided to betray him when the glasses got crunched and left on her floor, then she simply waited until his actions forced her to act on that decision.

I was under the impression that she broke the glasses herself...
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Postby NemZ » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:49 pm

AyrYntake wrote:I was under the impression that she broke the glasses herself...


I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:44 pm

Formless One wrote:1. Why do you think Gendo would do this? He's a bastard, but considering his own affection for her, I doubt he would do such a thing.

Cause Yui is more important to him. If she isn't going to help him get Yui back he'll get rid of her and get a new clone that will.

2. Rei clones don't work that way. Memory problems in Rei III are unrelated, as I have said before in other threads.

I said brainwashed. It's the same thing that convinced her she was 14 years old when the Rei entity is really only 10.

Memories are the basis of personality, so this means that if you cannot mess with memories, you cannot tamper with someones personality.

The fact that Rei exists says you're wrong. Consider who she thinks she is and who she really is. Her memories were altered somewhere.

No, it means she cannot think of others needs. The truth did wonderful things for Shinji. :rolleyes:

Caring enough to be truthful proves she was mature. The fact that Shinji couldn't cope means nothing, and it was still better than living a lie.

Difference between series Shinji and the dipshit we got for EoE. Shinji in the series at least had some attachment to Rei.

The problem you're having here is you're mistaking caring in general and caring about said person's personal problems. He cared about Rei but never thought twice about the conditions she was living in. He had better things to think about like how the only reason anyone likes him is because he is an Eva pilot and if he wasn't that they'd all hate him.

Shinji in EoE was a total sociopath.

Shinji in EoE was the same person. The only difference is it focused entirely on those issues that were always under the surface, just like Lilith. You can look back and see them clear as day.

All based off using physicall laws. Not breaking them. What people think natural law means and what it really does mean are two different things. Some people think that homosexuality is against natural law. Doesn't really mean anything, just that it repulses them. In other words, its BS, and is a bastardization/perversion of the principal of "Natural Law".

We'll see if you really believe that when scientists really start playing god and revive extict species and create new ones for the hell of it. Bye bye extiction and evolution, it was nice pretending you really mattered...
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:29 am

I said brainwashed. It's the same thing that convinced her she was 14 years old when the Rei entity is really only 10.


She doesn't have any data to say otherwise either way.

The fact that Rei exists says you're wrong. Consider who she thinks she is and who she really is. Her memories were altered somewhere.


Rei I seems to have known who she was, and then her soul was split in two. Rei II might simply not have the self-aware piece, so she took what she was told.

Caring enough to be truthful proves she was mature. The fact that Shinji couldn't cope means nothing, and it was still better than living a lie.


That can be argued on some heavily philosophical grounds. Is it better to live in an uncomfortable reality, or in a happy lie?

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Postby NemZ » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:14 am

AEF wrote:I said brainwashed. It's the same thing that convinced her she was 14 years old when the Rei entity is really only 10.


I don't recall anyone ever actually asking Rei her how old she was. Considering she knows about the dummy plug project and her tank full of spares, why wouldn't she be fully aware that she's been artificially matured to be roughly fourteeen?

AuraTwilight wrote:That can be argued on some heavily philosophical grounds. Is it better to live in an uncomfortable reality, or in a happy lie?


Lots of possible opinions on the subject, with hedonists and stoics at the extremes. It gets even more complicated if you stop to consider the possibilities that both or neither might be actually real, not to mention the possibility of creating or visiting any number of parallel existences.
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Postby SeanTucker » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:30 am

Formless One wrote:Difference between series Shinji and the dipshit we got for EoE. Shinji in the series at least had some attachment to Rei. Shinji in EoE was a total sociopath, and shouldn't be paired with anyone.


Way to miss the obvious. Shinji in EoE wasn't terribly derailed from series Shinji.

He had merely gone completely batshit insane as a result of all the horrible shit he was put through during the series.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:15 pm

NemZ wrote:I don't recall anyone ever actually asking Rei her how old she was.

The script for episode 21 says Rei I was 5 in 2010, or so I remember Reichu saying.

Considering she knows about the dummy plug project and her tank full of spares, why wouldn't she be fully aware that she's been artificially matured to be roughly fourteeen?

I never got the vibe she pondered such things. She accepts what she is told. Artifically aged or not she is really 10 pretending to be a 14 year old cause she was told that is what she is.

AuraTwilight wrote:That can be argued on some heavily philosophical grounds. Is it better to live in an uncomfortable reality, or in a happy lie?

I'll take the truth any day, even the worst of my life.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:55 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:The script for episode 21 says Rei I was 5 in 2010.


Which would mean Rei II might be considered to be as young as 4. Yikes.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:02 pm

Ah the little things that don't get taken into account...
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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:35 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:The script for episode 21 says Rei I was 5 in 2010, or so I remember Reichu saying.

You remember correctly, sir.

I'll take the truth any day, even the worst of my life.

Word up, yo.

Ah the little things that don't get taken into account...

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Postby p06 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:11 am

Reichu wrote:
Ah the little things that don't get taken into account...

"OH HAWTNESS, I WANT TO BANG YOU!"
"You do know she's only four years old chronologically, right?"


A pedestrian reaction, IMO. Suspension of disbelieve on such little things is pretty important when the characters as screwed up as this... Besides, even in reality there's no lack of perverts who are turned on by such... youthfulness. I mean if it were to be hinted somewhere that Shinji has a relationship with penpen... we'd still have to acknowledge the fact that the possibility of such a relationship was explored.

I believe that what is important is whether or not there is a close relationship between the two, and whether or not it is hinted that the relationship might progress further, into the territories of what we might consider as 'romantic'.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:58 pm

Discussion on whether loli can have tits or not -- which is what this tangent is approaching -- really belong on /a/
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Postby NemZ » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:08 pm

Ultimately this attempt to undermine the relationship via squick is rather easy to resolve, regardless how much random crap you pull out. Let's just go ahead and skip all the accustations and flat-out suggest that Shinji is a submissive masochistic bicurious necro/bestio/pedio/filiophilic insestual rishathrist pre-rapist with an appreciative eye for bountiful feminine accessories. Okay?

Here's the thing: Rei is so outside the norm that all these categories seem kinda meaningless. Rei is just Rei.

Important to note, however, is that Shinji is still disturbed to learn about even a smidgen of this. Does he just need time to absorb this information and to grieve for Rei2, or is he genuinely going to make this a deal-breaker? I say the former, based upon naked straddling and 'girlfriend pillow' postures employed in 26'.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:21 pm

Which would mean Rei II might be considered to be as young as 4. Yikes.


Yep. Which is exactly why Eric Blair was saying how Rei technically has the mental capacity of a 4 year old in some thread that got locked. I agree with this in regards to Rei's behavior to some extent.

Anyways, in regards to this topic: What I love about Shinji and Rei's relationship is that regardless of how Shinji feels about Rei at the end, she still wants to be there for him and to help him. She does seem to genuinely care about "Ikari-kun" and his future, although it would be nice if we could get into Rei's head more and see just what her thoughts/feelings are. I like to think that regardless of doing what she did (showing him what Instrumentality is like and asking him if it's REALLY what he wants) whether it was because of Lilith and Yui influencing her, Rei still wanted to be there for Shinji as a personal choice, not because she had to but because she wanted to. In regards to Shinji, one of the things I like about EoE is how he manages to get over his fear of Rei and seems to be truly thankful of what she did for him.

Shinji thanking Rei while holding her hand...beautiful scene, I love it. But it did seem he still needed to grieve over Rei 2's death considering he seemed finally okay with Rei 3 near EoE's ending.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:24 pm

This is my point in the end. He freaked out about the clones, he freaked out about Rei being a giant. How would he feel about the rest of it if he ever found out? If he knew Rei II was only 4-5 would he presue anything with her? If he knew where her genteics came from would he want to be with her in that way?

I say the former, based upon naked straddling and 'girlfriend pillow' postures employed in 26'.

Lolwut? He flat out said he wanted to be with Asuka and Rei's face didn't even show up in the I want to see them again photo. There is no deal to break...
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Postby Rhyno » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:24 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Shinji thanking Rei while holding her hand...beautiful scene, I love it. But it did seem he still needed to grieve over Rei 2's death considering he seemed finally okay with Rei 3 near EoE's ending.
Along with the many other things you mentioned, this is a big reason I don't see romance in their deep relationship. There is genuine affection for one another but not necessarily the physical attraction. It's like a deep friendship.


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