Depth of Shinji and Rei's relationship

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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:18 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:@Formless One, Lilith is still a 4 billion+ year old alien.

I just got done explaining this, and you say it all over without proof or argument of any kind? You have no evidence that she is in fact an alien, or inhuman in any way. She is depicted with human emotions, expressions, instincts, behaviors, psyche, etc.. How hard is this to grasp? Just because it does not fit with your interpretation of the show doesn't make you right.

And in fact, unlike the other angels, she is the one that is supposed to be the one humanity is based on, is she not? Why would she be alien?

Read what I write before restating your position next time. Broken records are broken.
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:19 pm

SeanTucker wrote:All I'll say is, S/R makes for good pr0nz and good comedy, sometimes at the same time; the latter moreso if they're kept in character.


How do you write good S/R pron and still keep them in character?!

Rei: I'm sorry, I don't know what to do in situations like this.
Shinji: You could try moving, or something.
Rei: If I'm ordered to, I will.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby SeanTucker » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:21 pm

Lucretius wrote:
SeanTucker wrote:All I'll say is, S/R makes for good pr0nz and good comedy, sometimes at the same time; the latter moreso if they're kept in character.


How do you write good S/R pron and still keep them in character?!

Rei: I'm sorry, I don't know what to do in situations like this.
Shinji: You could try moving, or something.
Rei: If I'm ordered to, I will.


I saw a decent one on AFF.
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Oh wait, did you mean the fruit?

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Postby CorporalChaos » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:26 pm

Formless One wrote:I just got done explaining this, and you say it all over without proof or argument of any kind? You have no evidence that she is in fact an alien, or inhuman in any way. She is depicted with human emotions, expressions, instincts, behaviors, psyche, etc.. How hard is this to grasp? Just because it does not fit with your interpretation of the show doesn't make you right.

And in fact, unlike the other angels, she is the one that is supposed to be the one humanity is based on, is she not? Why would she be alien?

1. Since humans are based on Lillith, its more like humans are "Lillithian" than Lillith being "human".

2. The fact is that Lillith came from deep space, while humans evolved here on planet Earth, albeit with Lillith DNA or whatever mixed in, makes Lillith fundementally alien, while humans are indigenous.

3. Don't be so abrasive. You're arguing over a cartoon for chrissakes.
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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:35 pm

1. Since humans are based on Lillith, its more like humans are "Lillithian" than Lillith being "human".

2. The fact is that Lillith came from deep space, while humans evolved here on planet Earth, albeit with Lillith DNA or whatever mixed in, makes Lillith fundementally alien, while humans are indigenous.

3. Don't be so abrasive. You're arguing over a cartoon for chrissakes.

1. Thank you for actually posting an argument. However, I would still point out to you her very human behavior, and ask you how alien she really is.

2. see #1. Also, semantics. She has been around on Earth as long as any other living thing not born of Adam. That's as good as native, in my mind.

3. Its the principal of the thing. Is it so much to ask that he tell me why he believes one thing over another?

Also, I'm unclear how abrasive that really was. What is your standard? Perhaps it differs from mine, but that does not stand out to me as that bad. How should I say it when he just restates his position without backing himself up? something which, I might add, is not exactly good debate form, by most peoples standards.
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Postby CorporalChaos » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:43 pm

Formless One wrote:1. Thank you for actually posting an argument. However, I would still point out to you her very human behavior, and ask you how alien she really is.

2. see #1. Also, semantics. She has been around on Earth as long as any other living thing not born of Adam. That's as good as native, in my mind.

3. Its the principal of the thing. Is it so much to ask that he tell me why he believes one thing over another?

Also, I'm unclear how abrasive that really was. What is your standard? Perhaps it differs from mine, but that does not stand out to me as that bad. How should I say it when he just restates his position without backing himself up? something which, I might add, is not exactly good debate form, by most peoples standards.

1. I don't know if you're getting my point, that its not Lillith acting human, but humans acting Lillith. So its more like humans acting like aliens then aliens acting human. Besides, I really don't see much behavior from her at all in the show, she's sort of like a prop. Rei is more like the bastard offspring of Lillith and humanity, so its a distorted reflection of Lillith.

2. I know a lot of it is semantics, but I consider alien anything that didn't originate on Earth. Getting here earlier than all other life still counts.

3. I don't know, your post came off as abrasive to me, but I've always been a little sensitive about questions like "How hard is this to grasp?" and the like. I'm probably over-polite, and don't really bring up bending or breaking standards.
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:46 pm

Rei's monologue in episode 25 suggests that her real self is somehow fundamentally different from humans, and lacks "human form." :shrug:

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby CorporalChaos » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:48 pm

Lucretius wrote:Rei's monologue in episode 25 suggests that her real self is somehow fundamentally different from humans, and lacks "human form." :shrug:

Yes, being sort of a cross breed makes her fundementally different from humans, but it kinda makes her different from Lillith at the same time.
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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:57 pm

1. I don't know if you're getting my point, that its not Lillith acting human, but humans acting Lillith. So its more like humans acting like aliens then aliens acting human. Besides, I really don't see much behavior from her at all in the show, she's sort of like a prop. Rei is more like the bastard offspring of Lillith and humanity, so its a distorted reflection of Lillith.

2. I know a lot of it is semantics, but I consider alien anything that didn't originate on Earth. Getting here earlier than all other life still counts.

3. I don't know, your post came off as abrasive to me, but I've always been a little sensitive about questions like "How hard is this to grasp?" and the like. I'm probably over-polite, and don't really bring up bending or breaking standards.

1. Chicken and egg analogy. However, it still doesn't mean that there isn't a basic equivilency at work. Who is based off who is meaningless, but to say that Rei acts like a human is a useful turn of words that gets that point across quickly and easily.

2. But when those life forms behave fundamentally the same as you, it doesn't really matter where you came from, so its not important to the point of it all.

3. Standards of politeness vary between people, and the only people who have the authority to say what is the minimum level of politeness are the staff. Standards of behavior (which unfortunately blur on the net with standards of politeness) are more universal, and to say that arguing like a broken record is bad form is a perfectly valid point from that perspective. Further, that particular question could be re-phrased as "you're missing the point" or something to that effect. How much does that really change the sentiment being conveyed? :wink:
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:02 pm

Formless One wrote:You have no evidence that she is in fact an alien

CI wrote:C. Confidential Information

They were the first extraterrestrial intelligence. The humanoid species,
referred to as the First Ancestral Race, started to spread Seeds of Life
throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. As of yet, we do not know their motives or for what they were aiming.

It is becoming evident that multiple Seeds were disseminated. Eventually, by force of sheer bad luck, two accidentally landed on the same planet: Adam of the White Moon, and Lilith of the Black Moon.

D. In-Depth Information

Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a
perfect cavity (also a moon), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods.

Nope, none at all.

or inhuman in any way

She can still be human and be an alien. It doesn't mean a different species, just a different origin. Is that so hard to grasp?

Broken records are broken.

Truth is true.

2. But when those life forms behave fundamentally the same as you, it doesn't really matter where you came from, so its not important to the point of it all.

If you think being a 4 billion year old lifeform from another planet isn't a big deal then... Well I can't put into words how odd that is.
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Postby CorporalChaos » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:09 pm

Formless One wrote:Chicken and egg analogy. However, it still doesn't mean that there isn't a basic equivilency at work. Who is based off who is meaningless, but to say that Rei acts like a human is a useful turn of words that gets that point across quickly and easily.

The problem is that Rei isn't exactly Lillith either, so saying Rei acts like a human isn't exactly saying that Lillith acts like a human.

But when those life forms behave fundamentally the same as you, it doesn't really matter where you came from, so its not important to the point of it all.
I don't know about that. The FAR is definitely considered alien, and they created Lillith in their image or something like that. I think place of origin is what is considered alien, not behavioural patterns.

Standards of politeness vary between people, and the only people who have the authority to say what is the minimum level of politeness are the staff.

I agree, I was just commenting that that conversation began to get on the abrasive side, and that all parties involved should probably calm down before a flame war starts.

Further, that particular question could be re-phrased as "you're missing the point" or something to that effect. How much does that really change the sentiment being conveyed? :wink:

"You're missing the point" seems a lot better way to make a point than "How hard is this to grasp?" without seeming harsh.
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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:10 pm

Nope, none at all.

The point isn't whether she came from another world, its that she acts like everyone else on this one does. Also, that you didn't show the evidence the first time.

She can still be human and be an alien. It doesn't mean a different species, just a different origin. Is that so hard to grasp?

Its not hard to grasp, but clearly she acts like a human, speaks like a human, thinks like a human, feels emotion like a human, expresses herself like a human (albeit a very introverted one)... hmmm... I wonder where this is going... :)

If you think being a 4 billion year old lifeform from another planet isn't a big deal then... Well I can't put into words how odd that is.

Rei doesn't act like its a big deal. :rei_meh: Seriously, you want to see an alien mindset? Look at squid. Or fish. Real aliens think waaaaaay differently then Rei.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:13 pm

Formless One wrote:The point isn't whether she came from another world, its that she acts like everyone else on this one does. Also, that you didn't show the evidence the first time.

Actually that always was my point... Also, I need to prove a known fact???

Its not hard to grasp, but clearly she acts like a human, speaks like a human, thinks like a human, feels emotion like a human, expresses herself like a human (albeit a very introverted one)... hmmm... I wonder where this is going... :)

That she is a human with a soul from a being from another planet.

Rei doesn't act like its a big deal.

Rei didn't know until EoE.

Seriously, you want to see an alien mindset?

Again, never the point.
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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:24 pm

CorporalChaos wrote:The problem is that Rei isn't exactly Lillith either, so saying Rei acts like a human isn't exactly saying that Lillith acts like a human.

The discussion is about Rei, not Lillith. And besides, Rei III did not act so drastically different from Rei II as to qualify as not human. Once she became GNR, she acted pretty freaky, but her basic emotions and personality stayed the same. Still sounds pretty human to me.

I don't know about that. The FAR is definitely considered alien, and they created Lillith in their image or something like that. I think place of origin is what is considered alien, not behavioural patterns.

We have never seen a FAR in person, so we have no way to judge. We have seen Rei, and so, from the way she acts we can say she is human.

Also, say I was an immigrant from, say, Mexico, and I grew up in America, act like an American, was even born here. Ethnically, I am still Mexican. But no one would deny that by the way I act I am American. Origin is less important to behavioral patterns. I am in fact white, its just for the sake of argument

Also, what measure is a non-human?

I agree, I was just commenting that that conversation began to get on the abrasive side, and that all parties involved should probably calm down before a flame war starts.

I suspect AEF has a pretty thick skin. I could be wrong. He certainly took it in his stride this time.

"You're missing the point" seems a lot better way to make a point than "How hard is this to grasp?" without seeming harsh.

Well, tis a matter of personality, I suppose. I have a few pet peeves, and he managed to hit one of them on the nose. So I responded as my gut told me to. It still didn't come out as harsh, in my mind.

Edit:

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Actually that always was my point... Also, I need to prove a known fact???

OOPS. Forgot, my first post was a nitpick. Sorry! :sweatdrop:

That she is a human with a soul from a being from another planet.

Well, we're clear, at least... we always were. Again, my fault.

Rei didn't know until EoE.

And she reacted to it like a human. As expected.

Again, never the point.

Again, my humble apologies.
Last edited by Formless One on Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CorporalChaos » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:38 pm

Formless One wrote:The discussion is about Rei, not Lillith. And besides, Rei III did not act so drastically different from Rei II as to qualify as not human. Once she became GNR, she acted pretty freaky, but her basic emotions and personality stayed the same. Still sounds pretty human to me.

But still, GNR is a mix of human/Lillith, which means that you still can't assume a personality of Lillith based on GNR alone. Lillith is still on the level of "prop" throughout the whole show.

That being said, Rei is also mixed with an alien soul, so she's not entirely human either.


We have never seen a FAR in person, so we have no way to judge.

But just because we have never seen a FAR, doesn't mean they aren't alien. Anything that has never lived on Earth is definitely considered alien.

We have seen Rei, and so, from the way she acts we can say she is human.

But Rei was also created by humans, and a lot of human behavioural patterns were imprinted on her from birth.

Also, say I was an immigrant from, say, Mexico, and I grew up in America, act like an American, was even born here. Ethnically, I am still Mexican. But no one would deny that by the way I act I am American. Origin is less important to behavioral patterns.

The analogy fails here because Lillith wasn't born here, but instead 'immigrated' here. And instead of growing up and acting like the planets creatures, the planets creatures grew up around her and acted like her. Origin is very important in this case.

Well, tis a matter of personality, I suppose. I have a few pet peeves, and he managed to hit one of them on the nose. So I responded as my gut told me to. It still didn't come out as harsh, in my mind.

Fair enough. For the sake of topic, I think we should probably just drop this part of the conversation.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:39 pm

Formless One wrote:The discussion is about Rei, not Lillith.

You can't seperate the two. I've tried to make this point several times. Lilith is a HUGE part of Rei's character as a whole. Hijacking those powers is the very reason Gendo keeps her around.

Also, say I was an immigrant from, say, Mexico, and I grew up in America, act like an American, was even born here.

Lolwut? You can't be an immigrant to this country if you were born here. Our screwy laws make that instant citizenship. Also, BORN HERE. Lilith was not.

Ethnically, I am still Mexican. But no one would deny that by the way I act I am American.

If you do not have citizenship you are an alien, legal or otherwise.

OOPS. Forgot, my first post was a nitpick. Sorry!

FFS!!!

And she reacted to it like a human. As expected.

I think my main issue with it is just what you said in your previous post.
Rei doesn't act like its a big deal.

But it's not really her choice if it's a big deal in a romantic setting. It's whoever she has her eyes set on. Not everyone is going to have a freakish reaction to something like Asuka did with the bone me or get lost bit. My opinion of the morality of the matter may not mean shit but the target's does. The question shouldn't be is Rei okay with these facts, it should be is her interest okay with them.
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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:57 pm

CorporalChaos wrote:But still, GNR is a mix of human/Lillith, which means that you still can't assume a personality of Lillith based on GNR alone. Lillith is still on the level of "prop" throughout the whole show.

That being said, Rei is also mixed with an alien soul, so she's not entirely human either.

How do you know that she is a hybrid soul? Assuming there isn't a thread that this would be better discussed in.

But just because we have never seen a FAR, doesn't mean they aren't alien. Anything that has never lived on Earth is definitely considered alien.

Oh yes it does! If humans are based off them, it makes a huge difference. Species lines make more of a difference than location differences. Psychological differences are next. In fact, location means almost nothing, and to say that you are an alien is a semantic issue, and as I already said, it matteres not as to whether you act like an alien.

But Rei was also created by humans, and a lot of human behavioural patterns were imprinted on her from birth.

That doesn't mean that they created or shaped her mind. If she was truly an alien as you say, then no amount of tinkering by humans should make her this human. Consider also their inability to recreate a human soul, and you will see why this one is unsupported.

The analogy fails here because Lillith wasn't born here, but instead 'immigrated' here. And instead of growing up and acting like the planets creatures, the planets creatures grew up around her and acted like her. Origin is very important in this case.

Its not an exact analogy. But she is only conscious and aware after those life forms came to be, FYI.

It really was to point out how something could come from another place, and still be judged to be what are from how they act, not where they came from.

Also, that link.

Fair enough. For the sake of topic, I think we should probably just drop this part of the conversation.

Deal.

Edit:

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:You can't seperate the two. I've tried to make this point several times. Lilith is a HUGE part of Rei's character as a whole. Hijacking those powers is the very reason Gendo keeps her around.

When she isn't aware of those powers until the end, it makes a difference. The two are already separate until the appointed time.

Lolwut? You can't be an immigrant to this country if you were born here. Our screwy laws make that instant citizenship. Also, BORN HERE. Lilith was not.

Again, imperfect analogy. See what I wrote to the Corpral.

If you do not have citizenship you are an alien, legal or otherwise.

Only legalistically speaking. That's frankly worse than a semantic argument, IMO.

FFS!!!

Er... pardon my ignorance, but what does that mean?

But it's not really her choice if it's a big deal in a romantic setting. It's whoever she has her eyes set on. Not everyone is going to have a freakish reaction to something like Asuka did with the bone me or get lost bit. My opinion of the morality of the matter may not mean shit but the target's does. The question shouldn't be is Rei okay with these facts, it should be is her interest okay with them.

Fair enough.
Last edited by Formless One on Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby p06 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:27 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:If you think being a 4 billion year old lifeform from another planet isn't a big deal then... Well I can't put into words how odd that is.


The reaction you expect comes from the fact that there are no 4 billion year old life forms on earth IRL? A notion as such is certainly bizarre to us, but given the different setting and background of the anime this probably isn't anything much.

It would probably be more fair to consider a different analogy here. If say, you were to meet a complete stranger who is a foreigner, for the first time on the streets, there would naturally be a feeling of distance from that person. However, if say in a different scenario you one day found out that your best friend for three years was born in another country, the immediate feeling is vastly different. Or perhaps you meet your long lost mother, who is from another country.

The point here is that yes, Rei/Lilith could be considered "alien" in some specific sense of the word, but that contributes little in the way of Rei/Lilith and her behavior appear unfamiliar or strange to the other characters (particularly Shinji). Certainly, Rei's true origins affects little, at least from the POV of Shinji. (Note also that the characters in the series are exposed to 2nd Impact, and the invasion and attacks of all the angels, etc. They've already seen lots of weird shit.)

As for Rei/Lilith's behavior, it probably wouldn't stray that far from what we expect as human either. Firstly, several basic human instincts are probably inherited from lilith after all. Secondly, in the series it is clear that through the interactions with Shinji, Rei has become increasingly "human". In EoE, lilith takes the form of Rei (instead of remaining as the purple mask thing) and allows Shinji to decide for the world; this shows that it is the case of a "human" Rei changing the behavior of Lilith rather than the "alien" nature of Lilith determining the behavior of Rei.

I see the intended place of this uneasiness as within the viewers rather than within the eva characters. (with so many psychological problems already, the eva characters probably couldn't care less)Personally, as a Rei fan, i believe that the possibility of R/S relationship coming to fruition represents the ideal that true love can transcend all these barriers that make their relationship feel weird, bizarre or even immoral. The fact that this possibility was eliminated in the end was, to me, a message saying that despite eva looked at certain ideals, it was first and foremost an examination of real relationship problems and offering possible real solutions, and not anything fairy tale.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:31 am

The Shinji side of things seems to have become lost at some point

SeanTucker wrote:All I'll say is, S/R makes for good pr0nz and good comedy, sometimes at the same time; the latter moreso if they're kept in character.


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Postby Evangelion__x » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:43 am

Lucretius wrote:
SeanTucker wrote:All I'll say is, S/R makes for good pr0nz and good comedy, sometimes at the same time; the latter moreso if they're kept in character.


How do you write good S/R pron and still keep them in character?!

Rei: I'm sorry, I don't know what to do in situations like this.
Shinji: You could try moving, or something.
Rei: If I'm ordered to, I will.


Ahahaha. That's what I pictured, too. ^_^


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