How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:22 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:This is mainly because the story is all about the Ikari family, not Misato and her crew. So in a way, we're following Gendo on his journey to madness and godhood, not Misato trying to defeat him. It's the tale of Shinji and Gendo and that's why I personally find it interesting to see him defeat lesser characters like Asuka. HE'S THE ONE FIGHTING THE WORLD AROUND HIM TO ACHIEVE HIS GOAL.

That's an interesting point you're raising, and if that was indeed the point of NTE, I can see why it left me disappointed: I find the story of the surrounding cast (both shown and told/implied) more engaging than that of the arch-asshole taking three decades and two near-genocides to realize that he's just afraid to make a connection with his children, and the son being constantly bonked in the head by the universe until he thoroughly internalized the proper conservative Japanese mindset.

What I meant is that personally I would had found it more interesting if the story focused more on Misato and her crew (that also includes the people of the Village) and her fight against the doom cult now led by the world's biggest selfish monster, with Shinji being used as an audience surrogate to get to know the cast's extra backstory and find his place among them as a way to finally excise himself from the shadow of his father and the toxic longing for his approval that made him blind to what's around him (both the people who really care about it and blind to the manipulation of his father), especially as it would form a continuation of the previous movies' themes of humanity overcoming their problems when they work hard together instead of putting all their faith in some magical one-trick that will solve all the world's problem (Instrumentality) and in Shinji's case, how the world isn't just about him and his father, but wider than that.
The direction the story ultimately took and and the way it was resolved gave me the feeling that all of those themes and extra-characters were swept aside (Shinji isn't even seen going back to his original world!) and that ultimately yes, everything does revolves around Shinji and Gendo, they are the alpha and omega of this story, culminating by them becoming fourth wall breaking gods and recreating the world at their image, and that Shinji's problem was that actually he didn't tried hard enough to get his father's approval.

The last part which, following your argument, might actually be the point of NTE, but I still find it uninteresting in comparison to the potential of all the rest of the setting and cast.


View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:I think the fights in Thrice are probably the biggest hit the movie took in terms of sequel obligations. In lieu of something that lended room for expansion like Rei's characterization or Shinji & Gendo's absent reconciliation, I can't imagine how you could beef up the Asuka vs MPE fight, not least of which because it was already cinematic.

Ironically, I got some of that beefing up in the initial NTP at the end of 3.0, with Unit 8+2 fighting an endless horde of copies of Mark.06, thanks to the motion capture and the fight taking place on the ground, it still gave the vibe of the heroes in a heroic desperate and heroic fight against impossible odds, but with its own twist, with said impossible odds coming from the sheer number of weak enemies rather than the near unkillability of a small group of them.
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Postby Axx°N N. » Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:33 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I find the story of the surrounding cast (both shown and told/implied) more engaging than that of the arch-asshole taking three decades and two near-genocides to realize that he's just afraid to make a connection with his children, and the son being constantly bonked in the head by the universe until he thoroughly internalized the proper conservative Japanese mindset.

Wording straight out of my soul.

Everything with Gendo is an insurmountable amount of disbelief to suspend. Or to paint a picture, a horse-pill the size of a head of lettuce. Impossible for me to swallow.

The actions Gendo takes suggest a far more compelling and interesting psychology behind it all than what we get, which feels rather like brooding Deviantart prose. I understand brilliant minds can often be severely stunted in other ways but like, real life agoraphobics are way more, well, real. There's way more to get out of a biography on HP Lovecraft or Emily Dickinson than Gendo's "I hate people and my earbuds shield me" stuff. Perhaps it was meant to be easy to relate to by a broad audience, or perhaps it's autobiographical. But while I can perhaps imagine someone with that emotional complexity becoming an anime director, I can't take it seriously that they would become a strategic organization's commander or, eventually, tokusatsu hitler with the power to transcend space-time

I don't particularly feel anything for the whole romance angle either because it's a pretty classic trope, love lost turning to impossible corrupting aims, beaten to death and done far better before, not least of which in this very franchise. Perhaps it's because Yui got actual lines and suggestions of something deeper, but I could believe in NGE & EoE that Gendo's love obsession was based on anything. I could also get something of a feel for the dynamics of the obsession because of his interactions with Rei. NTE shows us brooding Gendo on one hand, and a montage that consists of a smile and sex on the other, and asks us to fill in every single blank.

And lastly, I'm not too keen on the fact he's made to fathom his wrongs and end it all in penitence, because I don't think psychology and the propensity for change works the way NTE is presenting it, this in a series well-known for its psychological tangents. Even more disappointing, it's more or less the kind of psychology mainstream fiction indulges in all over the place, which is a kind of fantastical feel-good essentialism: everyone has goodness and badness, and they're basically elemental ying-yang, and even if it's reduced down to a nugget, the last little teensy spark of it will never be snuffed out and is always there for someone to breathe life back into it using undeniable reason. The thesis isn't "people are capable of reviewing all contents of the situation and of themselves and still choose evil," but more like "someone can only be evil by making themselves blind to something." But instead of working off the basis that there's a tragic true-love flashback explainer always waiting at the last moment, real life is ruled by the relentlessly procedural. People commit society-wide atrocities because those atrocities align with what they care and don't care about, and they've found themselves making a cost-benefit analysis resulting in someone else's bad day or life.

Anyway, black/white morality is very much the stuff of tokusatsu or anything with heroes and villains, so it's fundamentally not outside the wheelhouse NTE plants itself in; the bigger problem for me is that there isn't believable pathos involved. It works so much more for me in EoE where Gendo in his dying monolog seems so matter of fact and even a little resentful, as if these were things he was aware of on some level and that he's merely addressing because they've come to figuratively and literally bite him in the ass. As compared to Thrice, and the idea that Shinji's experiences can infuse him with just the right thing to say to someone who has committed atrocities for decades, which is ultra-absurd because it relies on the premise that Gendo has been refusing to turn certain stones over in his head all this time, even though most of what he's been doing is brooding, apparently, for long stretches in between the events he's orchestrated. I just can't buy that someone as capable and all-seeing as Gendo, the person who made this whole setting look how it looks, is such a dummy in such a simplistic way. I understand the contrast and "get" the irony, but it's not engrossing to me.

EDIT: Something that sticks out to me as something I don't quite get is the stuff with Gendo forcing Shinji to feel despair. Because if he's tactically forcing Shinji to experience similar grief, why is Gendo's epiphany based on finally acknowledging their similarities? Isn't inducing similar tragedy assuming there's a like foundation there in terms of, like, temperament? The crux of so many things is Gendo manipulating Shinji with near-omniscience, which would involve on every level an understanding of his nature, but Gendo doesn't make this 2+2 equation happen in his head? It's easy to buy someone holding their child in contempt without realizing it's a form of self-hatred when it's, like, someone you know in your family, but Gendo logically shouldn't be not realizing anything, mastermind manipulator that he is. It's maddening.

Anyway, like much else, it only makes sense to me when viewed metaphorically. Gendo is Anno, who for whatever reason is plagued with the tendency to cause the audience (Shinji) to share his pain. He heaps on the grief with precision. But with the help of his cohorts at Khara (or once-cohorts in Wille) and the influence of his wife's love, the prevailing tonal atmosphere becomes hope, and it loosens the grip.
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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:01 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:I find the story of the surrounding cast (both shown and told/implied) more engaging than that of the arch-asshole taking three decades and two near-genocides to realize that he's just afraid to make a connection with his children, and the son being constantly bonked in the head by the universe until he thoroughly internalized the proper conservative Japanese mindset.

That's where I have to disagree with you. Frankly, Misato (in this continuity, for God's sake) is not an interesting character to follow. Aside from the very first movie (which is pretty much a one-to-one copy of a better structured, richer section of the original story), her role in what's happening is merely symbolic at best. She is there to progress Shinji's character, making him face rejection. Her journey gets lost in the midst of all the chaos that's going on. In the end, she is reduced to Kaji's second-in-command. He, of course, is a more interesting character and that's probably because he only appeared in one movie and ended up not getting worn down like the other WILLE members.
The premise of a group of rebels fighting the tyranny of an authoritarian like figure is as boring as a basic concept to begin with. It's been so overused, for the lack of a better term. And even if we don't take that into consideration, it just doesn't suit EVA at all. It only barely works in the last two movies because we're not meant to simpatize with them in any meaningful way. What does Asuka has to bring to the table? Or Ritsuko, the technobabble lady? Or Mari? Or Sakura? These are not characters. They're taglines for characters. They are tools to challenge Shinji as much as Nerv is. I wouldn't like to know what happened to these people because at the end of the day it wouldn't advance the story any further as they are mere pawns in the big picture and are treated as such.
Gendo is an interesting character because, unlike Misato and Asuka (again, in this continuity), he has a very human side to his character. Emotional dependency is such a real problem that many of us have to deal with every day. Understanding how to move on from someone after it's all over can also be a huge challenge. It can take months and even years. Some people just can't and become monsters, just like Gendo (turn the news on and you'll see). Intolerance, lack of care for those around you, denial... These are all things we can see in the real world and I appreciate the movie for the way it tackles them.
The way you say it makes Shinji and Gendo's journeys look stupid. The thing is that... They are. It's called hyperbole. We're meant to see how far these two (especially Gendo) got and how simple their problems were to solve in comparison. It's not easy, but there are better ways to deal with a traumatic event than becoming God and trying to kill everyone around you.
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Postby Axx°N N. » Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:42 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Emotional dependency is such a real problem that many of us have to deal with every day. Understanding how to move on from someone after it's all over can also be a huge challenge. It can take months and even years. Some people just can't and become monsters, just like Gendo (turn the news on and you'll see). Intolerance, lack of care for those around you, denial...

Are you referring to, like, school shooters? I felt like Gendo made sense as this really closed off upper management guy, but he doesn't make sense to me as lone figurehead. It doesn't feel like it relates to anything real on an accurate scale.The architects of genocide haven't, from what I've seen, been the result of some kind of warped emotional dependency leading to the alienation of their offspring. Often if not always, as militarism is deeply woven into ideals involving family and lineage, evil men are family men, instilling the exact same mores and social advancement values into their children. Even in exceptions, like in the case of Hitler who had interesting reasons for not having children, these things are pretty deeply enmeshed in their political personas. As climbing a militaristic ladder is still climbing a social ladder, it takes some kind of skill in that regard. There are cases of agoraphobic, pessimistic, cynical leaders, but nothing similar to the "hate everyone and get lost in my earbuds" kind, which is so much more mundane and everyday than what I'd expect of someone who's supposed to be extraordinary. Even misanthrope leaders at least create a pool of confidants and similar thinkers to surround themselves with, not just a single Fuyutsuki. It's all pretty unreal, especially given that there aren't even inter-agency conflicts with Seele that leads to anything dynamic on their part. In NTE he pretty much just chats with them and, barring time-skip shenanigans, shuts them off. As foils they're completely impotent and I feel like as part of the equation Gendo is rendered dramatically inert.

I know at the heart of it Gendo is driven by his love of Yui, but we don't get a sense of how this fuels anything he's done. We peak into his mind but it's all pretty disconnected. Flashback Gendo with Yui feels completely separate from all the stuff with purifying the world and anything he did in a literal sense. Like, how do you get from point A where you love someone deeply to point B, you've utilized esoteric unearthed apocrypha to exterminate everyone to resurrect that love. There's a couple hundred steps in the evolution there that we aren't allowed to experience, so we just have to sit back and let Gendo rant as monotonously as possible, because we're stuck at the tail-end of a couple decades of him calcifying into his decisions, and then when we get flashbacks it's too little too late. What this results in for me as an audience member is having to bear purely informational exposition and frustrated boredom.

I know I could and should brush that all aside, but I feel like as a writer if you put in a genocidal tyrant and you don't really actually adhere to what that would imply about them psychologically, the ingredients you're working with aren't being fully considered in any meaningful way. Like, the closest anyone in Wille gets to expressing anger about the situation a tyrant has caused is treating Shinji like he's hitler. Instead of story elements that are put there in order to cohere, it feels like aspects that are just free-floating as part of surface signals. Even if we take Gendo's psychology to have no relation to his actual role or actions, and take them to relate to like, your average alienated father, I don't feel like Thrice is even a decent example of an exploration of an absent father. For a film to actually be a successful exploration of that subject it would have to dedicate to it, not spend hours on things that have nothing to do with that so that when the time comes, you only have 10 minutes to get everything across. It's more like that aspect of the story is outlined and blanks are suddenly created to then immediately fill them in as compared to it being fundamentally woven into the entire fabric. If it's THE throughline, I have trouble reconciling Asuka's relevance or like, Kaworu's role in terms of supporting the throughline.

EDIT: Expanded on certain things.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:07 am

Not gonna get into the loooooooooooooong debates in this thread but with the final film having been out for a year and a half and having now seen it twice in theaters my ranking of the Rebuilds is officially set.

1. 3.0
2. 3.0+1.0
3. 2.0
4. 1.0


Not gonna get into a long debate about the quality or NGE vs Rebuild or whatever but I would personally consider the top three among some of my favorite films of all time. So glad this new version exists alongside the original.

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Postby logged_in » Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:54 am

I meant to write this earlier when I saw 3.0 + 1.0 in theatres, oops.

On my third full rewatch (but reading some of the posts in here, maybe not enough watches), the movie magic of 3.0 + 1.0 has faded for me unfortunately. I still do like it even if I have some major squabbles with it, but personally, I think EoE (and NGE in general) hits much, much harder and resonates better though I'll acknowledge that EoE is among the best things I've ever seen and it's a very high bar to clear. I guess my major issue with NTE is that I read it as Anno going very meta, retracing his steps, and working through the issues he couldn't resolve through NGE + EoE. I think that's all fine, but it came off to me as more cold and clinical, sometimes wavey, incoherent, and ham-fisted. In shorter words, I could see what it was going for, but the approach missed.

Seeing anything Evangelion in theatres for me was honestly the best part of the experience. I was shocked that it even came to theatres where I live (none of the GKIDS Ghibli theatre runs this past year did, which was really disappointing), and based on the turnout, I'd say it's not happening again. Sucks.

Anyways, rankings.

1. 3.0 + 1.0
2. 3.0
3. 1.0
4. 2.0

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:18 am

Just saw, at last, Thrice : They really spent 14 years, untold amounts of man hours and millions of yens, wiped humanity a couple of times just so that Shinji could end up with a big breasted girlfriend ?
Please excuse the laconic, vulgar assessment but it mirrors what Rebuild amounted to. And honestly I can respect that.

Feel the whole effort was really shallow and a monument to self indulgence. I liked it a lot, but suspect more as comfort food and how hard it pandered to my reptilian hunger for more Evangelion and of the same.

Loved the ride, especially starting with Q and the audiovisual ambitions and executions getting a major step up. If anything, Rebuild at least generated some spectacular mecha and apocalyptic imagery... I'm not sure it holds up to any scrutiny beyond how overwhelming, epic & bombast it was or works all that well or at all without the prior emotional attachment to the franchise.

Have to agree with whoever earlier said that Gendo's omniscience kills any stakes and agency... I guess it couldn't end any other way than having Shinji confront him, but it felt shallow and unearned that Gendo just crumbles and yields after a couple minutes of soul searching. As with many things Rebuild, I liked a lot the execution of them having a mirror fight in all the stages of NGE but the actual writing doesn't really live up to how insightful the audiovisual language is.

And even as a farewell tour... It's really just a Shinji show.
Much ado about nothing, but a pretty nothing.

Apologies for the double post but I just rewatched the three films and bits of Thrice, and that was a surprising run for me...

All in one go and after listening to a podcast to refresh my NGE lore and make more sense of the films : It's actually not all that bad in the NTE and you can follow things until Thrice... I'll agree with everyone that thinks the last film gets really excessive with impacts, triggers, rites, spears and a variety of things you get barraged with along with exposition dumps that have the fatal flaw of not making things all that clear.

I think 2.22 holds up really well, actually. The reimagining of the Angels fights with added production value is a real treat in that one & the reordering of the plot is as good as they could achieve. I have a lot of fondness for Q, its radical alterity, dark apocalyptic mood and mixing Eva with Diebuster. Thought the Shinji / Kaworu interaction was a lot stronger than I remember.

Ultimately the whole effort falls short because of how it has to condense the character arcs and deprive it of some pacing and breathing room (1.0 in particular). I like Mari but it's comical how they grafted her into this and never really managed to make it more than a weird add-on with no real story of her own until the very end. There's plenty to like in Thrice but the conclusion still felt forced and artificial despite conceptually (having Shinji confront Gendo) being more sound and logical on paper.

I'm not gonna say it was pointless, I enjoyed my time with it and will again. Call me a prisoner of Eva, but there's enough of a spin, sidestep and added production value to make it valuable... I still think it was very over-indulgent and that they missed the mark if the ambition was really to have more than a re-thread. A lot of convoluted extra steps to basically end roughly at the same point.

I think composer Shirō Sagisu deserves a shout out for his work, definitely a massive part of achieving the bombast epicness the action scenes strives for.

Rankings then ? I'd put Q and 2.22 up top. 1.0 is the one bringing the less to the table.

Best sequence in four films ? Tokyo-3 waking up at sunset.

Double post merged into previous - staff

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Postby Joseki » Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:51 am

1. You Can (Not) Advance
2. You Can (Not) Redo
3. You Are (Not) Alone
4. Trice Upon a Time

I've managed to watch all movies in theater in the past year with less emotional investment and... It's a nice project, until it derails into the most socially conformative and coward ending imaginable.

The first movie is a pretty unambitious retelling of the first part of the story with enough small tweaks to feel intriguing for both new and old fans alike. The first half is a bit clunky but the second half is genuinely well done.

The second movie is the very definition of "Evangelion for theaters". It's big, loud and full of drama. As a stand-alone movie I feel like it's the strongest. The changes to the story are also pretty interesting to me and the ending is masterfully done: it's powerful without involving brain-numbing twists or visual porn. Fantastic cliffhanger too.

The third movie is bold: it revolutionized the setting and the visual identity of the entire series, created a brand new scenario and it's a nice overall package. I'm not a massive Kaworu fan but it sell the character well and the ending scene is my favorite in the entire series.

However the series as a whole is entirely undermined by the final movie. The first part in the village is actually pretty good, slow paced development for all characters involved with plenty of emotional moments, including a mighty fine closure for not-Rei's character arc. The problem starts in the second half. On a fundamental level, there is so much visual porn and smashing of giant robots the pacing mixed with vague, incredibly convulted lore that is gets slightly nauseating. On a more personal level, the way this movie concludes its narrative is of a cowardly I've honestly only seen in the most bog-standard romcom.
- Gendo spends 30 year committing multiple genocides, but he has a 10 minutes conversation with his son and he changes his mind. Not only that, the movie actively rewards him reuniting him with Yui.
- Asuka is reduce to visual fanservice for lusting fans. In her final scene she is reduced to a silent fetishized object. She is deprieved of any agency, she is depicted incapable of even saying anything or looking at Shinji, but boy did they show you how sexy she is in her lucent, ripped plugsuit.
- Mari, who I never mentioned because up until this point she is as relevant as post-timeskip Misato to the overall Shinji-centric narrative, is inexplicably turned into an invincible pilot capable of achieving all she wants without ever failing who is committed to stay with Shinji at the cost of leaving everyone else behind.
- The worst offender however is Shinji and his ending. As a character Shinji was built on top a very simple characterization that actually had some unique traits. Shinji has self-esteern issues, he is vulnerable and he's afraid of suffering. He also has some very positive traits like genuinely caring about his affections, he is a very skilled "male housewife" and he's not afraid of talking about his feelings. Among other things, Shinji rejects the standards of classic shonen masculinity.
The ending of this movie annhilates this. Shinji's payoff is turning into Shinzo Abe's ideal Japanese man. He is a salary-man and paired with a "reward woman" with which he shared 3 single moments in hours of story prior to the ending, two of this moment being explicitely situations centered on Mari's breasts. This is so limiting to their actual relationship that the movie has to focus on Mari's breasts even during the epilogue, because the audience never actually saw them talk about each other of any topic that isn't Mari's "big chest" and Shinji's body odor. I don't know how intentional this is, but all we see of them interacting about stuff that isn't an immediate "mission objective" is purely sexual and instinctive in nature.
Ultimately the end goal for Shinji was spending time with a big breasted girl when he's not working the most socially-normative work immaginable like the most disposable harem-romcom epilogue.

Thank you Eva, very cool.

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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:28 am

On rewatch I'm less interrogated by the very end with Mari (it's bothersome but she's just so shallow a character... and that song plus the heartfelt pan to the city does a lot to sweeten that sequence) but Gendo and Yui reuniting in a loving embrace and finally doing right by their kid is a little hard to swallow, yeah. I guess we're both Gendo hating hard liners. I don't mind him being humanised but he has long crossed any and all moral lines in every iteration... I never was 100% sold on Yui either but we never get to really know her as a character and not just an object of adoration or maternal instinct. Gendo even sounds more like a maniac in this version, I think, with his whole "purify the seas and earth" speech. He still laments seeing the new lance come down as "regrettable" and having to relinquish control of his plan. And even in that Shinji confrontation there's a sense of "well, turns out you've grown into being an adult, guess I did my job after all !".

They want to give all the characters some happy positive closure but they also made them even more subordinate to Shinji. Say what you will about the last scene of EoE (it's not certain Asuka willed herself there) but at least she gets the last word in on her own.

In a way Fuyutsuki and maybe Misato are the ones who get to exit on their terms in Rebuild Thrice, even if the former there's clearly no solace in it.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:02 pm

Joseki wrote:The worst offender however is Shinji and his ending.

Q is what it's like to be an adult (you fuck up, you suffer the consequences for it)
Shin is like what a child imagines adulthood to be (you have power, answers, etc)

Being an adult is literally 90% screwing up, taking responsibility and bettering yourself and 10% having answers, more power over yourself and shit. If you think you have the answers, you're wrong. You are refusing to see the other side and failing to renew yourself (and there are so many ways to do this)...
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Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:15 am

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Being an adult is literally 90% screwing up, taking responsibility and bettering yourself and 10% having answers, more power over yourself and shit. If you think you have the answers, you're wrong. You are refusing to see the other side and failing to renew yourself (and there are so many ways to do this)...

To be fair, Shinji wasn't bettering himself in 3.0. The bettering himself happened in the Village part of 3.0+1.0.

It's funny because Shinji recovering emotionally and meeting Kensuke and Touji was originally planned to happen in 3.0 (as we can see in imageboards from 3.333 Blu-ray).

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Postby Axx°N N. » Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:46 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:The worst offender however is Shinji and his ending. As a character Shinji was built on top a very simple characterization that actually had some unique traits. Shinji has self-esteern issues, he is vulnerable and he's afraid of suffering. He also has some very positive traits like genuinely caring about his affections, he is a very skilled "male housewife" and he's not afraid of talking about his feelings. Among other things, Shinji rejects the standards of classic shonen masculinity.
The ending of this movie annhilates this. Shinji's payoff is turning into Shinzo Abe's ideal Japanese man. He is a salary-man and paired with a "reward woman" with which he shared 3 single moments in hours of story prior to the ending, two of this moment being explicitely situations centered on Mari's breasts. This is so limiting to their actual relationship that the movie has to focus on Mari's breasts even during the epilogue, because the audience never actually saw them talk about each other of any topic that isn't Mari's "big chest" and Shinji's body odor. I don't know how intentional this is, but all we see of them interacting about stuff that isn't an immediate "mission objective" is purely sexual and instinctive in nature.
Ultimately the end goal for Shinji was spending time with a big breasted girl when he's not working the most socially-normative work immaginable like the most disposable harem-romcom epilogue.

It's cathartic to see a reaction like this because I've long been surprised there hasn't been more negative reception to the fact that, well ... this is where I get the urge to waffle, but I guess I'll just put it how I honestly see it: Thrice is Anno actively de-queering the franchise. It feels like an anachronism in itself, but the fan reaction is what surprises me more. I suppose the shipping angle, as usual, gets in the way of things and acts like a lightning rod; just like red girl, blue girl wars distract and detract from intelligent discussion, upset Kaworu fans were merely mad at the ship being sank purely in terms of their shipping wars, and it took the brunt of disappointment for what I feel should be a more subdued, nuanced appraisal of Thrice as an aggressively heteronormative product. The closest I've come to seeing my thoughts on the matter reflected were in EvaMonkey's vid with friends going in depth on Thrice, and hearing, for instance, the same trepidation over the station shot of Kaworu & Rei paired off. But of course, the person with trepidation was also queer.

I'm not being 100% serious here (or am I?), but on some level it's extremely hard, as a queer person, not to see Thrice's conclusion as retroactively making Rebuild (and Eva in its entirety) into a tale of reformed heterosexuality. And if it sounds bizarre, now you know how bizarre Thrice itself seems to me. It's impossible not to read some kind of "ah, what we once had" remorse into Shinji looking over to Kaworu & Rei on the station platform, the implication being that, well, that was impossible anyway because reasons, and the straight and narrow is the only option in the end because reasons. While I have no game in the shipping wars, I find the arguments Thrice offers for why Asuka and Kaworu are no-go to be somewhat unconvincing, not least of all because they're not very in-depth. And it's not like shipper grievances are completely without merit, because the very act of sideswiping these aspects of Shinji's character and replacing them with Mari has a detrimental effect that goes deeper than pairings as pairings.

And it gets mind-numbing, because you'll immediately be hit with, "no, the sound design guy said it's not romantic" or, "well, everything is ambiguous." Yet watching Thrice might be the least ambiguous viewing experience I've personally gone through in terms of its signals and its appraisals of certain modes of thought. It's more abstract than who was paired with who, it's the fact that queer elements once (and for decades) ambiguously existed within Eva as a core part of why it persists for a lot of people as an important narrative, and then Thrice makes pains to basically undo them all and replace them with patently unambiguous signals. After Thrice, the only reasonably deduced queer element is the implication that Maya is still a lesbian, although that aspect has been diminished by the fact that it's now expressed primarily through the outdated notion that lesbianism is more rooted in hating men than loving women, reversal of position in the film's climax aside.

Where it was once possible to identify with Shinji as a queer aided by the fact that it was an ambiguous element and not concrete, allowing a broad range of people to relate to the narrative for complex, varying reasons, now there's no room to do so any more because the film overwhelmingly marries positive fulfilling assessments with stringent conformity. Not only that, it creates barricades to entry in terms of identificaton: not an outspoken dude with women's breast's foregrounded in mind? Not your protag! Even Kaworu, at the very end, is saddled in perpetuity with "but what about the shot with Rei?"

Rei herself is an interesting angle re: queer identification, not as a sexual label but the more general use of "not feeling like belonging to mainstream society," and it too seems like an under-explored subject. Her role in the film is probably the most obviously meta, because I always felt like she became a more-Rei-than-ever-Rei, and was assuming in-universe the cultural cache she's come to inhabit in real life among fans and those more distantly aware of the franchise. She's the wabi-sabi, at a distance from life character, and but then (much to an imagined audience's shock) in the village she's accepted despite her differences and perhaps in some ways even because of them as a source of appeal. Yet this acts as a catalyst for her to be directed and instructed toward conformity: she's to be married off, ideally, and she ends up embracing the role of female as conduit of life. And it's interesting because the latter is in fact a perfect circle of an arc for her character, given her lineage as birthed from, and yet the same as, the birth-mother to all of humanity. And yet ... that connection is actively ignored in the rest of Thrice's narrative, and so the actually important intention is to take Rei, a character who embodies feelings of estrangement (and who acts as a way for those watching to see that part of themselves reflected) and to shepherd her toward taking (or aspiring to take) a traditional role in mainstream society.

And is this in particular wrong? No, because if Anno's vision of Eva is heteronormative and traditionalist that's his prerogative. The claim isn't that Eva is queer, but that it had ambiguously queer elements, and that's not much of a leg to stand on regarding entitlements. But to me it's an objective, abject difference between the approach taken to prior and new material, and I feel like the discussion there is lacking, if not missing entirely.
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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:18 pm

That's nice reading a perspective such as yours ! I've been on an Eva binge after Thrice but it's not that easy finding fresh angles to listen to.

You mentioned EvaMonkey, was that the Feminist Anime (pardon me if I got the name wrong) podcast ? I read the transcript in diagonal and thought of maybe giving it a shot.

I don't know I read into it as much as the earlier message did but it's hard not to notice Shinji being in a tie & suit in that final, nor you can really fend off the implication that it is the normal, real life world in that final scene (Anno's hometown recreated with some composites to how it looked then, I heard... I do appreciate that there's an element of non glamour there, with the factories featuring prominently in the skyline). Mari, who was so aggressively forward in those films, gets a much more modest real life re-styling too.

It's a fact of fiction that "go touch grass in the real world" message will often come across a tad reactionary, it takes a lot of doigté and finesse to pull it off without it coming across as old man knee jerk.
I don't want to reduce it to the franchise selling out or something, Evangelion is not Tetsuo the Iron Man, it never was punk (though thought provoking in its own right) but maybe turning into one of the most popular active franchises also might play a part in the fact Thrice's conclusion feels a lot more conformist.

Not to lionize the many, many issues of sexualisation that Eva had in NGE but for instance I don't think anything in Thrice was as provocative or disgusting as Gendo fusing Adam in Rei (to take one example where I feel it serves a purpose). The Rebuilds had some striking imagery (in particular Q), I think the timeskip was a bold decision wrt expectations but they sandpapered some of the unpleasantness. In some ways the Bardiel fight was as visceral as those Rebuild got.

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Postby Axx°N N. » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:22 pm

View Original PostAsuQa_PsyOp_Langley wrote:You mentioned EvaMonkey, was that the Feminist Anime (pardon me if I got the name wrong) podcast ? I read the transcript in diagonal and thought of maybe giving it a shot.

It was their Evangelion and Good Friends Spoilercast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkvAQzcWgms
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Postby AsuQa_PsyOp_Langley » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:25 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:
View Original PostAsuQa_PsyOp_Langley#938769 wrote:You mentioned EvaMonkey, was that the Feminist Anime (pardon me if I got the name wrong) podcast ? I read the transcript in diagonal and thought of maybe giving it a shot.

It was their Evangelion and Good Friends Spoilercast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkvAQzcWgms


Not the one I was thinking of but will accommodate some time to listen to in the future. Thanks.

Chatty AF was what I had in mind :
https://www.animefeminist.com/podcast-c ... ion-final/

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Postby SEELE-01 » Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:54 pm

View Original PostJoseki wrote:The ending of this movie annhilates this. Shinji's payoff is turning into Shinzo Abe's ideal Japanese man. He is a salary-man and paired with a "reward woman" with which he shared 3 single moments in hours of story prior to the ending, two of this moment being explicitly situations centered on Mari's breasts.


Thank_you.gif

This has bugged me since the first watch and it's nice to see someone has this opinion beyond "Shinji went with big-boobs-girl"
My first, visceral impression from the ending was not happiness for Shinji or closure for well, anything. It felt more like a slap in the face that I could only summarize as a "go outside, touch the grass, get a job and pay your taxes".
I know this is reductionist, that it was not the intention and that there are a myriad of other details to take into account, but still... First impressions matter and that one was kinda sour.
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Postby Archer » Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:22 pm

If we’re talking first impressions you don’t even need to go that far: the fact of the matter is that the ending was so poorly conceived and put together that, on release, there was a thread with dozens of pages trying to pick apart whether or not the ending takes place in a fantasy world, which if true completely undermines any possible message the film could have.

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Postby Axx°N N. » Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:20 pm

View Original PostArcher wrote:If we’re talking first impressions you don’t even need to go that far: the fact of the matter is that the ending was so poorly conceived and put together that, on release, there was a thread with dozens of pages trying to pick apart whether or not the ending takes place in a fantasy world, which if true completely undermines any possible message the film could have.

It's both the most overt and most convoluted ending I've ever seen. It's so bizarre, because the ambiguity seems to serve no purpose whatsoever but to throw off anyone who spent two additional minutes thinking beyond its surface level appeal. Is that the point? "Analyzing media is not the message here, it only gets worse the more you pick at it so don't, go live your life." But like, that gets dangerously close to the suggestion that art and thinking about art is inherently less meaningful than whatever governing forces in society want you to do, which to me seems like the cynical stance, despite whatever positivity the film tries to spin itself as embodying.
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Postby Gendo's Glasses » Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:38 pm

It's absolutely wild that Shinji used the godlike power of the anti-universe and the imaginary Evangelion to... create the modern world circa 2021.

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:43 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:To be fair, Shinji wasn't bettering himself in 3.0. The bettering himself happened in the Village part of 3.0+1.0.

Yeah, but do we even see Shinji recovering? He spends most of the time doing nothing. Then, in the last five minutes we, as the audience, are on the village, he suddenly goes through a life defining change.
And what is even that "change" to begin with? He now goes around as if he has all the answers, decides to use the godly powers of his EVA once again (just like his "immature self" tried to do in HA and Q, but failed) and then creates a "perfect" world in his image. He, for example, "fixes" Asuka without asking her what she wants and sends her away without even giving her a chance to say anything. Then he proceeds to destroy the power he used to do all of that and labels it as the source of all people's problems. That's, at least, hypocrite.

OG Shinji: "I'm giving people the possibility to get out of Instrumentality, with the free will that's inherent to everyone. The real world isn't perfect, but I rather live in it than in a lie."
NTE Shinji: "I'm using this godly power to create my vision of a perfect world, because I know better than everyone. Then I'm destroying this power because it's bad."

The difference is bizarre. If that's what it means to be a "mature adult", I don't want to be one.
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