How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

Moderators: Rebuild/OT Moderators, Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion.
Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:44 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Then why did they had this laboratory to research core erosion cleansing and find a way to revert it, if they didn't had any chance to survive without a miracle cleansing the whole planet in one go?
There are no indication anywhere that WILLE planned to find or build a spear and create an Impact to reverse the effects of the last three.

Not saying WILLE wouldn't try to look for a way to make Earth habitable again, but what Laboratory are you speaking?

Do you mean the laboratory with Kaji's work? He created this to preserve life forms after humanity was wiped out by the Instrumentality project.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 7872
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:25 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Not saying WILLE wouldn't try to look for a way to make Earth habitable again, but what Laboratory are you speaking?

Do you mean the laboratory with Kaji's work? He created this to preserve life forms after humanity was wiped out by the Instrumentality project.

I'm talking about the lab where Kaji Jr works, IIRC Kensuke says that they conduct experiments on restoration there.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Ragnarok
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 41
Posts: 2
Joined: Mar 07, 2023
Location: Tihuatlan, Veracruz, Mexico
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ragnarok » Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:17 pm

If I start from what was done in that interview with Toshimichi Ootsuki (King Records) in Asahi Shinbun (9/13/2006) that would later be seen in Newtype, when the informational outpouring to promote 1.0 was already beginning:

    1- It will be a reconstruction of Evangelion. A reinvention.
    2- The content is different although the time base of the story would be the same as the original series
    3- It will not be a remake or a re-creation. It will be a new job.
    4- It is not necessary to see the original series to enjoy this. It is not redundant content for those who knew the television series.

All of Rebuild is an elseworld for me, a reinvention of the series with different tools and budgets for its production than they had in the mid-1990s and therefore totally unrelated to the series and The End of Evangelion.

I respect every attempt by the old and the new fandom in the following years to try to relate them in some way but, in reality, beyond the facts, there is only the effort to find the comparisons. The fact that there are many elements taken from the television series and The End of Evangelion does not mean that every theory that relates them as a continuation is correct.

A continuation starts from a logical and progressive sequence. An elseworld, on the other hand, starts from a bifurcation. Not from a sequel. Here the fork is Mari Makinami. To deny this is to deny many things that happen in the rest of the tetralogy. Our privileged position is the one that allows us to notice that, as well as to also notice that, in the very logic that I propose, Rebuild is itself a continuation of its own history, one that occurs with elements of what we knew years ago.

In my obtuse and personal opinion, I think that this is the source of the problem when developing these theories, and wanting to catch the rest of the Eva-fandom that has not done this work in this feast of comparative screenshots. Well... the excuse of generating content with that bad setting of the framework, does not prevent there to be likes, reactions, responses and monetizing those tricksters.

But, it won't be me (an old, old Evangelion fan) who avoids that natural rhythm of events. I ever made that mistake, so my hands are just as dirty as many around here, and we're at peace with that, that's what this show is for. Enjoy the latest work by a great filmmaker like Anno.

Leonaxzz
Embryo
Posts: 11
Joined: Dec 08, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Leonaxzz » Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:02 am

View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:The entire Village scene is mainly about Shinji's recovering. In an actually healthy and welcoming setting, contrasting that of 3.0, surrounded by people who care for him, Shinji is urges and eventually agrees to socialize, go out into the world, try new things, help and feel part of the society by fishing, etc. He gets to feel human again, finds a reason to fight as in these people and this oasis of humanity, and it could even be argued that the contrast between Shinji and his once classmates, who are now respected adults with families while he's still a crying kid, was a wake up call too.


This is the point, in my opinion this part of the village scene doesn't actually bring out anything new, because Shinji's recovering process has been experienced before. Shinji pilots EVA for Rei, defeating Angel while causing innocent casualties therefore was resented by Toji, and was reprimanded by Misato to get out because he disobeyed orders. He felt isolated, lost, and ran away. After that, he chose to go outside, met Kensuke, and touched grass. In the end, Toji apologized and thanked him, admit that Shinji did save everybody. He also reconciled with Misato and decided to pull himself together.

That said the arc of 3.0+1.0 seems to be no much different from it. It is just a retelling of the previous plot which a few times more exaggerated and severe. I don't think Shinji really learned or realized something new from Q to Shin.

But just getting Shinji back on his feet doesn't solve the problems that were thrown in 2.0 and 3.0. If we now put this recovered Shinji into 2.0 to face Zeruel again, the dilemma still exists, Rei is still trapped in Angel's body and the whole world is going to blow up, Shinji doesn't have a magic wand in his hands that can miraculously save everyone. And this problem can't be solved by talking to Gendo.
So exactly when, how, and what did Shinji learn for him to be considered growth?

For example, it's ironic that Shinji is taunted by Asuka as immature because when his companion was in danger he neither killed her nor saved her which however is exactly what Shinji was trying to do in the Zeruel incident which is still called foolishness by Asuka. It's not that Shinji didn't act, he did but failed.

That is to say by this logic unless Shinji directly kills Asuka in the Bardiel event or kills Rei in the Zeruel event, the rest of the options are immature and stupid. The question is how did Shinji learn this conclusion? I don't see how the arc in the village has anything to do with this conclusion, Shinji, who witnessed Rei's tragic death, was heartbroken and decided to pull himself together to help those he cared about. And this act obviously contradicts to the problem in 2.0.
This time he managed to save Rei and Asuka, successfully gave them a second life, but the price Shinji tried to pay was his own life which he also said in 2.0 he doesn't mind losing.

By the way, comparing with that EoE attempts to bring up questions about how can Shinji cheer up by himself if there is no selfless people who are willing to give him unconditional love. This is also in line with NGE's point of view "You have to find happiness by yourself, others can't help you". But on the contrary the answer given by NTE was "Shinji passively obtained a completely healthy environment, and there were people who selflessly cared for him to restore him."

To sum it up, I think 3.0+1.0 shows that Shinji's recovery is just a rehash and retelling of previous story. 3.0+1.0's answer to 3.0 and 2.0 is like "just get back on your feet, get answer and take the initiative to help others", but in fact the whole story is asking the question about "HOW to get back on your feet? how to get the answer and help others correctly?", like it skips over the more important issues, and in the end gives an idealized and vague answer. Though it somewhat can fit EoE's problem I guess, because Shinji's depression can no doubt be solved with unconditional love, but it just miss the point.

ChrisTamv
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 72
Joined: Jan 21, 2023
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ChrisTamv » Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:10 pm

But just getting Shinji back on his feet doesn't solve the problems that were thrown in 2.0 and 3.0. If we now put this recovered Shinji into 2.0 to face Zeruel again, the dilemma still exists, Rei is still trapped in Angel's body and the whole world is going to blow up, Shinji doesn't have a magic wand in his hands that can miraculously save everyone. And this problem can't be solved by talking to Gendo.
So exactly when, how, and what did Shinji learn for him to be considered growth?


I explained in detail (in this thread if I'm not mistaken) what exactly Shinji learned at the Village and how itself as an environment and the people around it, both of which explicitly contrast those in 3.0, greatly facilitated Shinji's growth.

Another thing that separates 3.0+1.0 Shinji from 2.0 Shinji is exactly the fact that this is a latter version of him. There is crucial wisdom he gained from his experience in the previous 2 movies and the tragedies he went through. Mainly, how reacting to tragedy via rage and rejecting this new reality, like he did after Asuka's and Rei's near - deaths in 2.0 respectively, only lead to even more pain for everyone. After Kaworu's death in 3.0, he also learned how completely giving up from life and closing yourself up isn't a healthy way to tackle your life's problems and move on.

All of the above culminate into Shinji's response to Rei Q's death in 3.0+1.0. This is why he reacts the way he did, differently than before, to this death at this point in time.

If Shinji had this wisdom back in 2.0 though, it's unclear what he would had done. He certainly would had tried to save everyone, and quite possibly he would had started N3I because he theoretically doesn't even know that his Eva is capable of doing that. However, he would had never given up on both his own world and his own self, just so he can hug his girl Rei, a clone programmed to like him, while not saying a single word to her, and feel safe around her.

For example, it's ironic that Shinji is taunted by Asuka as immature because when his companion was in danger he neither killed her nor saved her which however is exactly what Shinji was trying to do in the Zeruel incident which is still called foolishness by Asuka. It's not that Shinji didn't act, he did but failed.


Of course it's ironic XD . After all the entire point of Asuka in the last 2 movies is that, despite how much she denies it, she's as much in arrested mental development as she is arrested physical development due to the Curse.

That is to say by this logic unless Shinji directly kills Asuka in the Bardiel event or kills Rei in the Zeruel event, the rest of the options are immature and stupid. The question is how did Shinji learn this conclusion? I don't see how the arc in the village has anything to do with this conclusion, Shinji, who witnessed Rei's tragic death, was heartbroken and decided to pull himself together to help those he cared about. And this act obviously contradicts to the problem in 2.0.
This time he managed to save Rei and Asuka, successfully gave them a second life, but the price Shinji tried to pay was his own life which he also said in 2.0 he doesn't mind losing.


I'll explain it again more clearly, but the context here is drastically different. In 2.0 Shinji, above all, acts out of despair, and his behavior is, as I explained above, extremely like an escapist delirium. He has given up, he has no hope in anything anymore and thinks Rei is all that's left in his life. He doesn't give a dime for anything else, not himself, not even the entire world, as long as he gets to be with her for a little bit more (reminds you of a certain someone?)

This last sentence is the key here, and what mainly seals the deal here. This is not a heroic rescue. This is an escapist delirium from a traumatized kid that has rejected the world and reality. This is not healthy. This is a stark contrast from 3.0+1.0 Shinji, who works on himself and manages to love the world and the people inside it so much that he decides to give his own life for them.

And of course, all this is without getting into the subtext here. Just to touch on them, there is a reason why it's Rei who's saved here and not literally anyone else. The symbol of all waifus, a pop culture icon, the idealized young, obedient Japanese girl, that is the personification of the Oedipus complex as she is both Shinji's mother and love interest at the same time, with everything that implies about her being an easy, safe escape for him.

Subtextually, Shinji gave up everything just so he can be with his "waifu", and in the next movie was rewarded with a destroyed world and a lifeless doll... So... Basically what he wished for?

By the way, comparing with that EoE attempts to bring up questions about how can Shinji cheer up by himself if there is no selfless people who are willing to give him unconditional love. This is also in line with NGE's point of view "You have to find happiness by yourself, others can't help you". But on the contrary the answer given by NTE was "Shinji passively obtained a completely healthy environment, and there were people who selflessly cared for him to restore him."


This is unfortunately a very common misunderstanding. No, others can help you find happiness, arguably true happiness can only be achieved with other people. NTE makes a single point here, that your environment, both social and not, plays an important role in your growth and mental health. It doesn't exclusively determine it, after all Shinji makes great personal strides in this movie, but it certainly influences it. Now tell me, is there anything in this idea that is disagreeable? I think the grand majority of people would consider this as a truth of life.

This is why in my opinion NTE might even be more realistic, or let's say, empathetic (?), since it also gives the appropriate weight to external factors such as this one.

To sum it up, I think 3.0+1.0 shows that Shinji's recovery is just a rehash and retelling of previous story. 3.0+1.0's answer to 3.0 and 2.0 is like "just get back on your feet, get answer and take the initiative to help others", but in fact the whole story is asking the question about "HOW to get back on your feet? how to get the answer and help others correctly?", like it skips over the more important issues, and in the end gives an idealized and vague answer. Though it somewhat can fit EoE's problem I guess, because Shinji's depression can no doubt be solved with unconditional love, but it just miss the point.


I believe the movie more than answers these questions:
1. Try to understand everyone before you pass judgement.
2. Grieve after any loss like a human being, but don't forget to stand back on your feet again and see what you can do better in the future.
3. Go out to nature, try new things. Follow your own wants, not just orders.
4. Surround yourself with an encouraging environment and people who care about you.

... To name the most important few...

Axx°N N.
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 648
Joined: Dec 31, 2020
Location: Up a tree
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axx°N N. » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:17 am

View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:This is why in my opinion NTE might even be more realistic, or let's say, empathetic (?), since it also gives the appropriate weight to external factors such as this one.

I get the angle, but I'm not sure I take Eva of old to be nearly as solipsistic as it's sometimes presented. EoTV presents a kind of deathbed acceptance--Shinji's decision is entirely interior here because it doesn't effect physical change, which is irreversible, but the epiphany he reaches is retroactive and lets others incorporate into his identity in a transformational way. In EoE, the whole deal of Shinji rejecting Instrumentality is a rejection of the kind of wallowing-in-the-self and rejection-of-others mindset--the same embrace of others EoTV extolled and that Thrice would, 20 years later, present more directly and didactically, it's just that ending on the red sea left it all up to future possibility instead of active demonstration. Which of these approaches is superior kind of boils down to if you found Thrice's demonstrations good or not for whatever reason, and if you find suggestions, premises and promises lacking instead of evocative.

Comparing all three, I'm unsure there needs to be demonstration beyond what had already occurred, and EoTV and EoE acknowledge this in that Shinji's decisions are informed by kind memories and warm, smiling still images. He looks back and recollects with different perspective, as the heavy lifting had been accomplished all along, there was just a kind of blindness preventing clear sight. Thrice, in progressing beyond the scope of what had already been accomplished without additional exposition and character interaction, is left with blank space to navigate and the ability to do what hadn't been done before, but only in a literal sense, regardless of whether the absence of these things in the old material or the existence of exposition in these narrative locations is justified or not.

And more broadly, I get the feeling that Thrice, while attempting to present something more universal, is disserviced by how specific the scenarios are in practice. It's hard not to take the village sequence as an extended ideation--"problems wouldn't exist if we lived like this," except that's not true at all, and speaks nothing of the alienation or ostracization present in even the most limited in scope of tight-knit communities. That segment is idyllic because they decided so, and Wille is fraught with tension because it was decided so, but there's no actual organic reason given the elements involved that either strictly need to be the case. Why wouldn't the village have more assholes? Why wouldn't Wille have some contingent that doesn't blame Shinji? To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what my problem is here, but I think it has something to do with the feeling that Thrice is presenting objective truthisms where reality, in my mind, is more variable, subjective, complicated, and unable to be squeezed down into perfectly contrasting packages. Perhaps there's fundamental, inherent room for skepticism when predicating half your plot around such a long time-skip--each presented element needs to pull double duty and make the argument that this is how this is, that's how that is, and avoid the scrutiny of too many instances of "but why?" and risk the believability of the scenario at its hidden founding level. It would be easy to accept everything as just surface plot, just that this is a fantasy fable and these are our characters and this is our shounen premise. Except these things are, at the same time, being presented as signifiers and something metaphorical, facets of personal decision and responsibility to be praised or or poo-poo'd. But as a kind of ethical formula, the math on one side doesn't factor out to the sum presented on the other side. I don't want to say Thrice is incoherent--it's clear what it's trying to say. But I feel like it's more verisimilitude than coherence, an argument without enough support.

Each entry in Eva boils down, the narrative disappears and the characters become motifs, but it feels like EoTV and EoE have far more breath, range and adaptability in terms of how the audience can approach the core ideas. Shinji is an almost elemental rejection of others, and the other characters embody different forms and flavors of rejection, or obsession, or baggage. But then you have Thrice putting lids on its characters and creating obstacles. You can say Kaworu, for instance, is used as shorthand for codependence ... but the narrative is determined to also make up for lost time and show us flashbacks of him as a Nerv commander and that he had a relationship with Kaji we don't get to see, and the narrative communication and meaning here is tangled up and trying to do so many things at once. The plot dissolves at the same time that it's preoccupied with tidying its characters up, gets loose only to become thoroughly deliberate, and irons each character out in this checklist revolving door into some kind of permanent cliffnotes version of what a character is: a trope, plus a problem, and now a solution. Things get trippy so they can normalize, Shinji matures so he can be immature, reality unrealities into actual reality. It's a mad rush, but it's not radical, and it's resolving its characters, but they're left feeling less than a scripted idea, and it's clearly trying to reach a meaningful conclusion, but there's no sensation of epiphany.

I've seen Thrice with several people, not superfans, but not people who neglect to focus on a film and hash out its meaning. None of them comprehended that the film was filling in time-skip blanks by showing Kaji and Kaworu's interaction, and when told this, their reaction was "what?" and then, very quickly, "why?" Nothing is really contributed to the narrative in terms of emotion or immersion by the idea that there was this relationship we don't get to see, especially in the climax of a film when, structurally, ideally, the emotive building blocks should be fully slid into place. EoTV and EoE are successful falling actions to all the elements that built up to fitting last words. Thrice is more like an arduous endnote presented as a fitting conclusion, stamped out of thin air with premises that are their own resolutions without really attending to the middle chunk. This is handily demonstrated by Mari's periphery presence and sudden integral role. And this itself handily demonstrates the contradicting nature of Thrice, as I've seen arguments that something is accomplished in the storytelling because of the absence of Mari's character--yet in the same breath, the suggestion that prior versions of Eva were incomplete--because they didn't codify the characters in the manner of a third party essay (Rei needs to be her own person, Asuka and Shinji need to move on from each other, etc.) or give Gendo a typical, openly narrated, plain words redemption. Thrice is justified because it's finally filling in old blanks, and blanks need to be filled, except not its own, those are fine.

I'm always shocked and, honestly, taken aback when I see glowing praise online, because my experience irl has been totally different and pretty consistent. The second half of the film tires everyone out with blunt exposition, the mythology becomes totally vacant of ethos and mystery, and the latter half loses everyone with the least gripping, contradicting, psychedelic yet mundane, dry stream of consciousness.
Après moi le déluge!

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:59 am

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:I've seen Thrice with several people, not superfans, but not people who neglect to focus on a film and hash out its meaning. None of them comprehended that the film was filling in time-skip blanks by showing Kaji and Kaworu's interaction, and when told this, their reaction was "what?" and then, very quickly, "why?" Nothing is really contributed to the narrative in terms of emotion or immersion by the idea that there was this relationship we don't get to see, especially in the climax of a film when, structurally, ideally, the emotive building blocks should be fully slid into place. EoTV and EoE are successful falling actions to all the elements that built up to these fitting last words. Thrice is more like an arduous endnote presented as a fitting conclusion, and then it's stamped out of thin air with premises that are their own resolutions without really attending to the middle chunk.

I'm pretty sure that the initial reactions being "what?" and "why?" are the one the creators wanted and expected from the audience for that scene.

They probably expect that many fans will be curious about the relationship after they process the surprise, but the scene is created to be confusing.



View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:I'm always shocked and, honestly, taken aback when I see glowing praise online, because my experience irl has been totally different and pretty consistent. The second half of the film tires everyone out with blunt exposition, the mythology becomes totally vacant of ethos and mystery, and the latter half loses everyone with the least gripping, contradicting, psychedelic yet mundane, dry stream of consciousness.

Well, most positive opinions are from fans, so they could appreciate aspects shown in the second half.

Also, it isn't weird that people feel lost about Evangelion. That's how many people feel about Episode 25&26 and EoE. I mean, I still remember the many complaints these ending received for the confusion they caused in the audience.

Axx°N N.
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 648
Joined: Dec 31, 2020
Location: Up a tree
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axx°N N. » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:52 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I'm pretty sure that the initial reactions being "what?" and "why?" are the one the creators wanted and expected from the audience for that scene.

They probably expect that many fans will be curious about the relationship after they process the surprise, but the scene is created to be confusing.

I don't disagree, and I'm not against movies confusing their audience. But there's a difference between purposeful confusion and something both confusing and pointless. To my taste, a falling action shouldn't contain distractions or pieces of information that would have a fuller sense of importance and their own fitting space in some earlier part of the narrative. I don't think that segment of the film benefits from tasking the audience to process that specific tidbit, not to mention that I genuinely believe few people even process what that tidbit is trying to communicate. To put it another way, I think the presentation is more confused than the audience. I mean, Kaji and Kaworu having a history isn't confusing in itself, I just don't think it imparts anything of importance to the extant that it needed to be placed at that point. Perhaps if it can be brushed off and not interfere with a casual audience's enjoyment it isn't an issue--but that's not really my concern.

My concern is more with how the narrative justifies its decisions. Gendo is a good example. He gets a redemption, something no prior version of this character has been afforded, even though he's the version of the character who has committed the most grievous acts in terms of body count and, hell, duration of effort. You could say this is purposefully exaggerated, and that it services the redemption by making a kind of statement: even someone this far gone, this cartoonishly evil, can be redeemed. The problem for me, though, is kind of an overlapping thing:

1) I'm not sure I trust the intent. How am I supposed to know that Gendo isn't more exaggerated merely because it was the only thing available to do that would differentiate his character? That kind of goes for any element in NTE, because it's not something that could exist in a vacuum, and only makes sense as made up of a series of counterparts. This doesn't really matter in itself if the premise is executed with immersion, but:

2) The premise, beyond being a counterpart, doesn't have strong legs compared to its parallel. Gendo as a villain has pitch perfect foresight, and his hidden surprise emotional foible is ridiculously cut and dry, to the extent that it's hard to picture one can even turn into the other. I can't help but think it's in fact the result of seeking out differentiation for its sake and then running into a lose-lose scenario the more events you need to change and the less screen time you can afford to justify each one. For instance, a comparison is made between Shinji and Gendo because they both shun others. But we've gotten a long, intimate perspective on why Shinji is the way he is, not least of which because of Gendo as his father. With Gendo, all we get is "he's like this because he is, then he's not because of Yui, then he is even harder when she's gone." And that's because it's competing with other similar resolutions, and nothing is done to flesh any of them out beyond being my reduced sentences. I suppose part of the gamble is that an audience won't question what made Gendo how he is outside of the vacuum of sad music and a couple flashback pictures. Mystery would be an acceptable reason, and I enjoy how mysterious Gendo's aims and drive are in the flashback episode of NGE. I can at least bask in that--but I can't bask in or enjoy much of what NTE glosses over, because it's not replacing it with anything approaching sensory.

So yes, the really, beyond the pale evil guy is redeemed, and this is new and not done before in Eva--but I find myself unable to care, because redemption in and of itself is just a concept unless attached to some kind of tangible, actual, fleshed out human. What I'm left with is more the unavoidable sense of Thrice as a byproduct of being a sequel, being a series of decisions, and its relationship to old material being not only distracting, but more apparent than the good stuff about film: immersion and emotion.

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Well, most positive opinions are from fans, so they could appreciate aspects shown in the second half.

Also, it isn't weird that people feel lost about Evangelion. That's how many people feel about Episode 25&26 and EoE. I mean, I still remember the many complaints these ending received for the confusion they caused in the audience.

Well, but there's the fact that reception was overwhelmingly positive across every metric, including among media critics, who are not necessarily fans but impartial professionals.

I don't think lost is the right word. Among those who weren't thrilled with Thrice, online and not, I'd say the better descriptor is apathy. I don't think it's possible that the broad strokes are lost on anyone, as they're presented overtly.
Après moi le déluge!

nerv bae
Israfel
Israfel
User avatar
Posts: 479
Joined: Sep 06, 2021
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby nerv bae » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:34 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:So yes, the really, beyond the pale evil guy is redeemed, and this is new and not done before in Eva--but I find myself unable to care, because redemption in and of itself is just a concept unless attached to some kind of tangible, actual, fleshed out human.

Did this scene affect you emotionally the first time you saw it?

SPOILER: Show
Image

I know there's a lot more to Thrice's presentation of Gendo's redemption than just this scene, and I'm not trying to frame my question as a "gotcha" or assert that your answer one way or another will refute your reasoning. Instead, I'm just trying to figure out if you felt any particular way upon first viewing, if those feelings changed subsequently, and how that may have altered your thinking over time.

This scene knocks me over emotionally every time I see it. Gendo kneeling and hugging Shinji is so enormously emotively redeeming that, yeah, at least for a minute and within the logic of the story I can forgive everything that's come before. It's just that powerful.

Axx°N N.
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 648
Joined: Dec 31, 2020
Location: Up a tree
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axx°N N. » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:46 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Did this scene affect you emotionally the first time you saw it?

I don't want to potentially dampen anyone's enjoyment by leaning into disparagement of the scene, but in the interest of variety, and the fact I don't believe I've seen anyone criticize that specific scene before...

To take a line from Peter Griffin, not that this is tacit agreement of his take on the Godfather, that moment feels like the film insisting on itself too much. It feels, like much of Thrice, as if rectifying Eva's past sins means to be unambiguous where it counts, and part of that is delivering a familiar tearjerker that leaves no one unmoved. I mean, what kind of monster wouldn't be moved? Well...

The first time I watched that scene, I had already been inundated with exposition, not something I was expecting nor ever enjoy, and was verging on being totally checked out. The action scenes were wearing me down and I could feel all through Gendo's flashback that the film was sprinting where it should have been navel-gazing, and could palpably feel that I was being instructed what to feel once the moment came and went. But I never felt it, and I haven't on each rewatch.

I'm not sure how much of it is contextual. As a thought experiment, let me wipe aside all the baggage of what doesn't work for me about surrounding moments. Taken as it is, the scene is actually a neat way to merge classic Eva iconography and use it as a kind of crescendo. Aesthetically it makes all the sense in the world.

But I just don't feel anything for Gendo or for Shinji. It feels not only unearned, it feels like it's running negative on a deficit. Closest approximation I can make is how some people feel about Return of the Jedi's absolution of Vader; many a nerd argument over how blowing up entire planets can't be outweighed by the fact that, hey, it's the third film, and we need some bittersweet catharsis cause you know, we gotta.

There's something about it that's trite and ethically simplistic. I'm not aware of any films that redeem Hitler, maybe one or two exist, but it's pretty self-explanatory why that's not a common feature of media about Hitler. I'm not a big fan of the idea that all evil can be forgiven and all evildoers redeemed, but there's an argument there; what there's no argument for is that there is evil in this world that does not ever reach the point where forgiveness or redemption occur. One aspect of evil is that one insulates oneself against the chances. Another is that it's an unwanted chance--that the want and the chance are alien language.

I find it way more believable for Gendo to be so pigheaded that the closest he can come to remorse is still distant, aloof, and somewhat self-serving. I don't buy that Gendo, after decades of slow-burning genocide, can think in the terms presented by an anime scriptwriter eager to please an audience. They should be different vocabularies entirely, and I know it's just fiction, but it feels like an ethical failure if not just totally unbelievable.

I don't think art should be obligated with any responsibility to the outside world. But I think it's worth saying that there's the potential for people to take from sentimentalizing media like this the idea that they've failed or are incomplete in some way if a bridge that's burned is unrecoverable--even when the fire was started on the other side. If the purpose of art is to help us live, I don't find anything helpful in Eva propping itself up as yet another of the endless narratives that treats finality on par with every single bad turned into a good.
Après moi le déluge!

DantesInferno
Ramiel
Ramiel
User avatar
Posts: 327
Joined: Apr 23, 2020
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby DantesInferno » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:19 pm

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:Did this scene affect you emotionally the first time you saw it?

SPOILER: Show
Image

I know there's a lot more to Thrice's presentation of Gendo's redemption than just this scene, and I'm not trying to frame my question as a "gotcha" or assert that your answer one way or another will refute your reasoning. Instead, I'm just trying to figure out if you felt any particular way upon first viewing, if those feelings changed subsequently, and how that may have altered your thinking over time.

This scene knocks me over emotionally every time I see it. Gendo kneeling and hugging Shinji is so enormously emotively redeeming that, yeah, at least for a minute and within the logic of the story I can forgive everything that's come before. It's just that powerful.


It hit me super hard because I'm about the same age as Gendo pre-time skip, and my son is about as aold as Shinji in the platform scene.

MsenjaKagami
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 108
Joined: Aug 28, 2021
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby MsenjaKagami » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:29 pm

Axx°N N. wrote:But I just don't feel anything for Gendo or for Shinji. It feels not only unearned, it feels like it's running negative on a deficit. Closest approximation I can make is how some people feel about Return of the Jedi's absolution of Vader; many a nerd argument over how blowing up entire planets can't be outweighed by the fact that, hey, it's the third film, and we need some bittersweet catharsis cause you know, we gotta.

Genuinely not trying to sound rude or condescending by this, asking out of honest curiosity: how would you have preferred for Shin to have ended? I know this is a bit of a complicated question, and I'm not trying to insinuate a "oh if you think it's so bad why don't you write your own movie?" kind of accusation. I realize asking for an entire hypothetical rewrite is an unreasonable thing to demand, and I'm also not trying to say you're obligated to justify your dislike of it. But honestly speaking, I personally cannot imagine a different way for this series, for Anno's Evangelion, to have concluded any other way than the way we ended up getting; where Shinji is finally able to overcome his greatest, series-spanning struggle and reach an understanding with Gendo. Which I'll admit that might just mainly be the hindsight talking, it is easier to accept that things had to be the way they turned out after they've already happened (obviously), and I'll admit I do like the ending. I also realize that you and I are/were looking for different things out of this movie, thus the difference in our experiences. What worked about it for me wouldn't work for you.

But I am curious: what would you have wanted to happen instead? To Gendo, to Shinji, to the rest of the characters and their story? What would you have changed, be it set-up, build-up, or pay-off?
Last edited by MsenjaKagami on Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Avatar Source: https://twitter.com/AwakeningDog/status ... UW7kpedBvg

Software engineering degree haver, aspiring pretend storyteller

nerv bae
Israfel
Israfel
User avatar
Posts: 479
Joined: Sep 06, 2021
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby nerv bae » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:28 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:The first time I watched that scene, I had already been inundated with exposition, not something I was expecting nor ever enjoy, and was verging on being totally checked out. The action scenes were wearing me down and I could feel all through Gendo's flashback that the film was sprinting where it should have been navel-gazing, and could palpably feel that I was being instructed what to feel once the moment came and went. But I never felt it, and I haven't on each rewatch.

Reading this made me realize that I can't actually remember how the scene made me feel on first watch. What I wrote above, that the scene knocks me over emotionally every time I see it, is definitely true for subsequent watches. But I watched all four films for the first time ever when they came to Prime, one apiece four nights in a row, and frankly that was pretty overwhelming and I can't remember how I felt about any specific scene. Only after digesting the story for a bit, figuring out what the hell was going on (thanks EGF), and rewatching all of it again a few weeks later was I able to experience the scene's full impact (heh). It was a lot to take in.

Axx°N N.
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 648
Joined: Dec 31, 2020
Location: Up a tree
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axx°N N. » Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:48 am

View Original PostMsenjaKagami wrote:But I am curious: what would you have wanted to happen instead? To Gendo, to Shinji, to the rest of the characters and their story? What would you have changed, be it set-up, build-up, or pay-off?

I mean, the simple and honest answer is "EoE." I wasn't left wanting for a more formulaic conclusion to Gendo and Shinji's relationship. I took their dynamic to be irreparable. Many of my favorite films have morose, sad facts of life without magic solutions. Au Hasard Balthazar does not stand to benefit from a rewrite where he runs off with a big-breasted girl donkey after making amends with his evil-a-second-ago donkey papa.
Après moi le déluge!

MsenjaKagami
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 108
Joined: Aug 28, 2021
Location: USA
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby MsenjaKagami » Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:09 am

Axx°N N. wrote:I mean, the simple and honest answer is "EoE." I wasn't left wanting for a more formulaic conclusion to Gendo and Shinji's relationship. I took their dynamic to be irreparable.

Mmm. Well, fair enough then I suppose. If it wasn't the film you wanted it to be, then it wasn't the film you wanted it to be. Nothing I have to say could possibly change that, though I'll respect that you understand what you're looking for in your media.
Avatar Source: https://twitter.com/AwakeningDog/status ... UW7kpedBvg

Software engineering degree haver, aspiring pretend storyteller

Axx°N N.
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 648
Joined: Dec 31, 2020
Location: Up a tree
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axx°N N. » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:30 am

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:But I watched all four films for the first time ever when they came to Prime, one apiece four nights in a row, and frankly that was pretty overwhelming and I can't remember how I felt about any specific scene. Only after digesting the story for a bit, figuring out what the hell was going on (thanks EGF), and rewatching all of it again a few weeks later was I able to experience the scene's full impact (heh). It was a lot to take in.

Oh wow, I'm honestly jealous and wish I could have watched them without long waits in between. Although I'd have to say that having the landscape shot + Sakura Nagashi at the end of Q as a mood to dwell on, that the dreaming and yearning that induced in me for years is something I miss, now that the blank is filled.

This reminds me of the fact my first exposure to Eva was renting EoE randomly from blockbuster. In some ways Eva is still in my head as "that thing I had no context for the ending for that drained my brain at age 18."
Après moi le déluge!

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 7872
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:27 pm

View Original PostChrisTamv wrote:And of course, all this is without getting into the subtext here. Just to touch on them, there is a reason why it's Rei who's saved here and not literally anyone else. The symbol of all waifus, a pop culture icon, the idealized young, obedient Japanese girl, that is the personification of the Oedipus complex as she is both Shinji's mother and love interest at the same time, with everything that implies about her being an easy, safe escape for him.

Subtextually, Shinji gave up everything just so he can be with his "waifu", and in the next movie was rewarded with a destroyed world and a lifeless doll... So... Basically what he wished for?

The problem is that Rei isn't really treated as your typical "escapist waifu": their real meeting has him coldly rebutting him for having taken Gendo's old glasses, their second one has her slaps him for insulting Gendo.
Then they spend a lot of time together, both at school and after school to train most of the days, regularly talk together, get to know each other to the point that Shinji knows Rei's culinary tastes and even the kind of books she likes (as seen when he tries to bring some to "her" in Q), he's worried for her when she leaves for several days and immediately asks her if she's okay when she comes back, he regularly makes her meal as he sees that she doesn't eat well and don't know how to cook; and ultimately that makes Rei start to open up more and she decides to step out of her zone and comfort and tries to organize a diner so Gendo and Shinji could get closer. (as she's the only person in the world can convince him to participate)

If anything, it's one of the healthiest relationship Shinji has before the timeskip! :tongue:

The whole manic escapist angle is also damaged by the fact that the first two scene of him in 3.0 are respectively him answering Asuka's call to save her even beyond "death", and then immediately asking to be deployed to help her when she had to connect the Wunder engine during the Nemesis Series attack, not really fitting of an escapist.

And if the goal was to chide him for trying to escape reality with a "waifu", then don't have another one drop on his laps at the end of the saga, one that is the stereotypical 21's century waifu (big tits, cat girl, genki and constantly sexualizing everything), with whom he only had four encounters, three of which being about her tits and his smell and who turned out to had know him since his birth and kinda always were looking for him from the shadows.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:23 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:If anything, it's one of the healthiest relationship Shinji has before the timeskip! :tongue:

To be fair, the relationship wasn't so healthy for Rei II at the end.

Rei II seems to be trapped in her wish to give Shinji "the happiness of a live without the Eva" after 14 years. Not to mention that Rei II is projecting her own wishes to Shinji.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 7872
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:28 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:To be fair, the relationship wasn't so healthy for Rei II at the end.

Rei II seems to be trapped in her wish to give Shinji "the happiness of a live without the Eva" after 14 years. Not to mention that Rei II is projecting her own wishes to Shinji.

That's still one of the healthiest relationships Shinji has. :tongue:
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

ChrisTamv
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 72
Joined: Jan 21, 2023
Gender: Male

Re: How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ChrisTamv » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:47 pm

The problem is that Rei isn't really treated as your typical "escapist waifu": their real meeting has him coldly rebutting him for having taken Gendo's old glasses, their second one has her slaps him for insulting Gendo.
Then they spend a lot of time together, both at school and after school to train most of the days, regularly talk together, get to know each other to the point that Shinji knows Rei's culinary tastes and even the kind of books she likes (as seen when he tries to bring some to "her" in Q), he's worried for her when she leaves for several days and immediately asks her if she's okay when she comes back, he regularly makes her meal as he sees that she doesn't eat well and don't know how to cook; and ultimately that makes Rei start to open up more and she decides to step out of her zone and comfort and tries to organize a diner so Gendo and Shinji could get closer. (as she's the only person in the world can convince him to participate)

If anything, it's one of the healthiest relationship Shinji has before the timeskip! :tongue:

The whole manic escapist angle is also damaged by the fact that the first two scene of him in 3.0 are respectively him answering Asuka's call to save her even beyond "death", and then immediately asking to be deployed to help her when she had to connect the Wunder engine during the Nemesis Series attack, not really fitting of an escapist.


Well this is exactly why I specifically referred to Rei as a "waifu" when talking about the subtext of this part of the story. In the actual text I will also agree that Rei II develops out of her archetype in many ways and that she and Shinji cultivate a genuine relationship, at least to an extent (and I say to an extent, mainly because the fact that Rei was programmed to like Shinji muddies things quite a bit).

This interpretation is mainly about Shinji's behavior. And yes, even maniac escapists have their moments of assuming responsibility and acting bravely. That's... Kind of the whole point of Shinji's character since day 1 after all... However, Shinji at the end of 2.0 became Gendo 2.0. He was already at a bad spot, he lost the only person he thought that mattered in this world, and his response to all of this was to reject the world, his own self, and go beyond the laws of physics out of pure despair just and only to be together again with said person (not even to really live together with them again!)

3.0 + 1.0 reinforces this further by drawing explicit parallels between these two character moments, and they're almost the same, down to specific actions and the sequence in which they occurred.

And if the goal was to chide him for trying to escape reality with a "waifu", then don't have another one drop on his laps at the end of the saga, one that is the stereotypical 21's century waifu (big tits, cat girl, genki and constantly sexualizing everything), with whom he only had four encounters, three of which being about her tits and his smell and who turned out to had know him since his birth and kinda always were looking for him from the shadows.


I'm not going to deny the romantic implications in the last scene, but I really don't think these two are a couple in the end of 3.0+1.0. Besides the VA Director for Thrice confirming that the scene wasn't directed romantically, I don't think Mari's symbolic role in the Rebuilds, which is surprisingly well - established, is really compatible with such an interpretation, nor even that such a relationship logically makes any sense unless another major timeskip happened before the final scene at the train station.


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests