MariShin discussion general

[Joseki]

Just the fact that there are heavy romantic implications between Shinji and Kworu in 3.0 and not only is evidence that the Rebuilds aren't pushing some supposed anti-gay agenda like the user I replied to was suggesting. That's all I'm saying.

I can't name an openly gay character in Rebuild.
I can however name a gay character from NGE that had their sexuality entirely removed in the Rebuild. And that's what I wrote, the is no space dedicated to gay characters in the Rebuild universe.

Unless you count an eternal being having a savior complex for Shinji as gay representation, which I personally don't.
Still, they gave fujoshi their fanservice in 3.0, no one can deny that.

Re: Shinzo Abe's breeding propaganda. Shin is a movie that explores the family dynamics entirely from a strongly conservative pov, that's it.

That said, I won't continue this discussion. Just thinking about all this reminded me why I hate this movie so much, it's infuriatingly heteronormative and hyperfocused on the nuclear family to the point of harming its own characters.

[ChrisTamv]

Unless you count an eternal being having a savior complex for Shinji as gay representation, which I personally don't.

So you're referring to Maya then? I mean, if something so secondary made such a difference for you then you'll be happy to hear that not much has changed compared to NGE in this regard. Maya's feelings towards Ritsuko are still unrequited, in fact they're more overt than normal in the last movie. She literally calls her "XO Senpai" every time she refers to her.

Re: Shinzo Abe's breeding propaganda. Shin is a movie that explores the family dynamics entirely from a strongly conservative pov, that's it.

That said, I won't continue this discussion. Just thinking about all this reminded me why I hate this movie so much, it's infuriatingly heteronormative and hyperfocused on the nuclear family to the point of harming its own characters.

NGE isn't much less "heteronormative" than the Rebuilds, and the Rebuilds' relatively larger focus on this aspect doesn't damage the characters. It's not even explored from such a conservative lens, as for example pretty much every single nuclear family presented the parents are presented as anything but an authority and are confronted multiple times for their negligence and faults.

[Blockio]

I agree with Chris, that's an incredibly cynical and reductive take; also patently wrong, given the attention that Shin gives to Kensuke and Asuka just normally living together without any implication of romantic involvement.
Also the entirety of Mari's character

[BernardoCairo]

In regards to Shinji and Mari, I've said it before and I'll say it again. They're not just standing next to each other... They're flirting. Mari is doing what she always does and Shinji is moving along withit, breaking out of his reactive role as a character and becoming a more active person. That's the reality right there. That doesn't mean they're madly in love or anything, but there is indeed some tension between them, something I can't say about Asuka and KenKen, for example.

ppl will see "girl & boy standing next to each other" and instantly think couple - they also did it in EoE but at least in that case Shinji and Asuka were actually portrayed to have some degree of sexual tension between them.

Hell no. What people did was acknowledge that their relationship, however turbulent it was, is important to the movie's plot and Shinji's progression as a character. This is obvious, as not only does the film begin and end with this dynamic, but it is very important during the climax of the story (Asuka's death and instrumentalization) and the mental state Shinji is in during its first half as well.
So they were never just “standing next to each other.” There is real movie material behind their relationship. And yet, most people don't say that they will be happy together or that they are even a couple. They just acknowledge that their bond is important to the film.

[VeryConfusedDingus]

But you can't really say these two, as of now, are there to "generate gayness"; at the least all you can say now is that they generate potential bisexuality, and it's only true on the basis of plausible deniability. Mari is last seen running off with Shinji, Kaworu is last seen standing still with Rei. If they wanted to maintain the ambiguity of these character's sexualities, that's an extremely poor way of doing so.

In the end, there wasn't really any legitimately queer elements to the NTE story or characters. Even Maya is kept more on the down-low, the only thing suggestive being her cringey lines about the unreliability of young men, as if lesbianism can be conflated to man-hating.

Alright, so I have finished the Rebuild series. I don't have anything to add to this thread that others haven't already said besides my own headcanon, I like to think that Rei and Kaworu are just part of Shinji's psyche and he has moved on into a happier adulthood. Didn't really notice anything in the scene that would suggest that they are a couple. They were having a casual conversation with a bit of teasing. Maybe that's just my bias as a Kawoshin supremacist. I've got no interest in straight romance. I do find it silly and slightly overexaggerated to consider it "heteronormative" but I get the users point. I like to believe it's deliberately left open to interpretation. And as you said, that could have been done a lot better. I didn't enjoy the rebuild films nearly as much as I did the TV series or EoE. It's just left way too vague. In my view, Shinji is still gay. It seems way too out of the blue for him to suddenly start this romance with Mari. She is too old for him, she was a grown woman when he was born. And what's with the DSS choker too? The events of Evangelion have long since passed so why does he still have it 14 years later as a grown adult?

I bloody hate Asuka with a boiling pool of malice (seriously I despise her) but I can at least understand the ( flawed >:( ) logic behind it since there was a level of tension between them. Shinji shows no interest back and that's put to rest. Mari is complimenting how he has changed into a man and not the scared self-loathing boy he used to be, she is giving him acknowledgement and appreciation. Her breasts were a running gag. Personally, I didn't like it at all, 3.0 gave us the gay fan service then suddenly it's inverted with this weird mommy age-gap ship that's curveballed at us? Like man, no. Kaworu's relationship with Shinji was definitely romantic and I will never in my lifetime understand the olympic mental gymnastics you guys go through to deny that. Is that to say that 3.3 is homophobic? No, it just felt lazy. Like saying "Here's a vaguely implied romance that may or may not be canon, now shut up and let the franchise die already". Not my cup-o-tea. >:(

[Axx°N N.]

She is too old for him, she was a grown woman when he was born.

But does he know that at all? Logically he should if everyone went through instrumentality together, but Instrumentality seems more selective in Rebuild. We don't get insights into Mari, for instance, but everyone else gets their mind exposed to us. Doesn't make much sense. I think it's part of the problem of how Mari was handled, that everything is so hush-hush that there isn't much to grasp no matter how you slice it. If the ending is romantic, we don't even know how Shinji views Mari so it's hard to swallow. Even if they're just friends, that's still the case; we don't have much insight into where Shinji's even coming from when he interacts with her, even if it's just platonic.

I often see people saying "but Kaworu is mysterious too, it's exactly the same!" But no, it's way different. With Kaworu we might not know everything but we know precisely how Shinji feels and where he's coming from and what he knows and thinks of Kaworu. That's 100% different.

I prefer to read Shinji as somewhat queer, but I'm not exactly against the idea of a Shinji/Mari coupling ... it would just need to have any kind of grounding or explanation, which Rebuild doesn't provide.

[nerv bae]

And what's with the DSS choker too? The events of Evangelion have long since passed so why does he still have it 14 years later as a grown adult?

I think a popular explanation for this is that 14 years haven't actually passed in this scene. Instead, the characters age-up in an instant during Instrumentality, and then are ejected to whatever lies beyond as adults.

She is too old for him, she was a grown woman when he was born.

But does he know that at all? Logically he should if everyone went through instrumentality together, but Instrumentality seems more selective in Rebuild. We don't get insights into Mari, for instance, but everyone else gets their mind exposed to us. Doesn't make much sense. I think it's part of the problem of how Mari was handled, that everything is so hush-hush that there isn't much to grasp no matter how you slice it.

Instrumentality is selective in Rebuild, in the sense that although everyone did go through it together, there were three distinct centers. I still feel this is under-discussed:

I would assume EVA imaginary / GNR / Lilith is the catalyst like in EoE and the spears are needed as the sacrifice. My interpretation is that Shinji "overrides" Gendo as the center by providing another spear.

This isn't directly relevant to impact triggers, but I think the fact that Kaworu has control of Thrice's Instrumentality in between Gendo and Shinji is under-discussed. Shinji doesn't really defeat or override Gendo. Rather, Gendo has an epiphany and relinquishes control, Kaworu picks up the reins for Asuka and his own Instrumentality, and then Kaji suggests Kaworu let Shinji drive for Rei and then finally himself.

SPOILER: Show

Gendo -> Kaworu




Kaworu -> Shinji

So, while I agree that Mari's treatment during Instrumentality might stem in part from how she was handled by the authors, I still think it would be worthwhile to perform a per-center examination of why each character chose not to focus on her. I recall that Gendo was fully self-centered, that Kaworu focuses on himself and Asuka, and that Shinji focuses on himself and Rei. Does each character while at the center have a reason to avoid examining Mari, or to make other focuses the priority? Does Kaji's suggestion derail Kaworu's bound-for-Mari train? If Asuka had been at the center instead, might she have focused on Mari, because they seem to share a richer recent relationship?

[VeryConfusedDingus]

But does he know that at all? Logically he should if everyone went through instrumentality together, but Instrumentality seems more selective in Rebuild. We don't get insights into Mari, for instance, but everyone else gets their mind exposed to us. Doesn't make much sense. I think it's part of the problem of how Mari was handled, that everything is so hush-hush that there isn't much to grasp no matter how you slice it. If the ending is romantic, we don't even know how Shinji views Mari so it's hard to swallow. Even if they're just friends, that's still the case; we don't have much insight into where Shinji's even coming from when he interacts with her, even if it's just platonic.

I often see people saying "but Kaworu is mysterious too, it's exactly the same!" But no, it's way different. With Kaworu we might not know everything but we know precisely how Shinji feels and where he's coming from and what he knows and thinks of Kaworu. That's 100% different.

I prefer to read Shinji as somewhat queer, but I'm not exactly against the idea of a Shinji/Mari coupling ... it would just need to have any kind of grounding or explanation, which Rebuild doesn't provide.

I agree on Kawoshin 100%. It's not mysterious, it's so painfully bloody obvious. Shinji’s relationship with Kaworu felt so intimate and healthy even if it was only for a short while. Shinji showed Kaworu a side of humanity he never knew. They were romantically in love. Kaworu is an angel and we may never get a full picture behind how he thinks or even functions as an ethereal being in a human vessel. But we know Kaworu loves Shinji and Shinji loves him back. That's why I so fervently defend Kawoshin. Whether you like it or not, it's officially CANON.

Anno did warn us about getting too intimately involved in fictional ships by annihilating one in the second impact lmao. I think those who ship Asuka and Shinji are a bit mental and don't understand the irony. They are meant to be incompatible opposites, that's the joke. They'll interpret and make Shinji into this buff macho stud with freakish clone offspring when canonically he is a fruitcake in denial and the polar opposite of that. It's a weird self-insert thing. If Anno was to outright say this ship was true and provide more contextual info as to why he chose this ending then sure, I would accept that. There is no closure in this for me. I strongly disagree on Shinji and Mari being a couple, I really do not like it. Sure, they grow up in the Rebuild. Yet I can't envisage Shinji being in a straight relationship because objectively it doesn't fit him. I never really liked Mari at all either. It feels so icky. Seriously, why her? In all likelihood, they're probably mutual friends and she's just being a cheerful mother figure. The lack of context is very frustrating. There is no way to truly tell.

One thing I will say did give a conclusive ending in the Rebuild series was Rei. She found purpose and community among the rural rice farmers doing whatever menial work she was tasked with. It's not much, but it is the authentic beauty of reality. Harvesting the fruits of your labour and feeling part of something. Made me feel happy for her. I much prefered 3.0 as a film. I'm waiting to try and get a DVD copy so I can watch the full series on my CRT. No matter how bad things get, we keep going because the will to live burns brighter and ignoring the issue won't solve anything. Asuka emerged back from the dead in the LCL sea just to continue being a smug *** to Shinji again. That's true dedication.

[Konja7]

Didn't really notice anything in the scene that would suggest that they are a couple. They were having a casual conversation with a bit of teasing.

Some translations for the script of that scene mentiond Kaworu and Rei as a couple, but it seems to be somwhat ambiguous.

I agree on Kawoshin 100%. It's not mysterious, it's so painfully bloody obvious. Shinji’s relationship with Kaworu felt so intimate and healthy even if it was only for a short while. Shinji showed Kaworu a side of humanity he never knew. They were romantically in love. Kaworu is an angel and we may never get a full picture behind how he thinks or even functions as an ethereal being in a human vessel. But we know Kaworu loves Shinji and Shinji loves him back. That's why I so fervently defend Kawoshin. Whether you like it or not, it's officially CANON.

I think the relationship between Shinji and Kaworu isn't mysterious because we know where their feelings come from. Instead, Shinji and Mari relationship is mysterious because we don't know where Shinji and Mari (romantic or not) feelings come from.

However, I don't think Kaworu and Shinji feelings are necessarily romantic on NGE. It's true they like each other, but it's intentionally ambiguous whether the feelings are romantic or not. Their relationship could always be read as a deep friendship.

In Rebuild, they mantain this ambiguity about their relationship (even in words). They seem to want to hint some connection/similarity between Shinji, Kaworu and Gendo.

[VeryConfusedDingus]

However, I don't think Kaworu and Shinji feelings are necessarily romantic on NGE. It's true they like each other, but it's intentionally ambiguous whether the feelings are romantic or not. Their relationship could always be read as a deep friendship.

Sorry man, I disagree strongly. If they're just friends then they have to be the most affectionate, intimate and fruitiest I have ever seen because most don't tend to hold hands in the bathhouse, confess their love and kiss each other. It's definitely romantic. I much prefer this ship that actually has some grounding and link to the characters that fit their overall personalities and story arc over this random mommy age-gap ship that has no implication throughout the series and pops up out of nowhere. It's ten past eleven at night, I'm too tired to debate lol.

[BernardoCairo]

I would like to start by saying that "canon" doesn't really mean anything in Evangelion and most anime. Japanese people don't really have the same concept of "canon" that we do here in the West. Plus, Evangelion is very multifaceted. There's a lot more to it than meets the eye and some people will react to it in different ways.
What I can say is that: "Shinji is gay" doesn't make any sense in the context of the two continuities, as he's shown to be attracted to women and that's important to many of his character moments (especially in the original series). One could make the point that he's bi, but that's a whole other discussion. Also, Kaworu and Shinji, again, has much more to it than people think. You have to take the context behind it into consideration when doing analyzes. Kaworu is an unique antagonist and Shinji is in a miserable place dying for anyone's attention (something that's later built upon on EOE). It isn't really a "love story" per say. That's what I think at least, but there are other interpretations. Finally, no ship is "canon" (I'm using it for lack of a better term). The characters are all there to explore different sides of human relationships. I would argue that Shinji and Asuka's relationship, for example, is much more relevant ro the plot (especially on EOE, but also in many episodes, not as a stand alone thing). Shinji and Rei is also quite important in the movies, I have to admit. So maybe Shinji and Mari has its meaning.

[Axx°N N.]

So, while I agree that Mari's treatment during Instrumentality might stem in part from how she was handled by the authors, I still think it would be worthwhile to perform a per-center examination of why each character chose not to focus on her. I recall that Gendo was fully self-centered, that Kaworu focuses on himself and Asuka, and that Shinji focuses on himself and Rei. Does each character while at the center have a reason to avoid examining Mari, or to make other focuses the priority? Does Kaji's suggestion derail Kaworu's bound-for-Mari train? If Asuka had been at the center instead, might she have focused on Mari, because they seem to share a richer recent relationship?

Center-swapping of Instrumentality is a really excellent point! I wasn't focused on that at all despite that being exactly how it operates.

Given that Shinji is one of the centers, I guess it's mainly Shinji's lack of curiosity about Mari that bothers me. I guess Gendo's too? I take it that Shinji saw Mari in Gendo's flashback, but it really feels like there should be some character moment somewhere that reconciles how truly odd and significant she is. Fuyutsuki's the only one, but Mari proves instrumental for all the characters. Gendo as center thinks only about Yui, which I suppose makes sense. But if he were paranoid, if he wanted some insight into Fuyutsuki, the guy he's been cohorts with for most of his life, maybe some reveal about Mari would be possible.

As for Shinji, on a character level, I do really feel like he should be reacting in some way to all the information being gathered about Mari. It's almost like a plot turn that isn't treated like one. The only way to write it off is "Shinji didn't see Mari in Gendo's flashback," but he interacts with her so heavily toward the end and it's in a sort of bizarre "fuck it, we ball" kind of way that feels underwritten.

I'm not sure where it would occur, but Instrumentality seems a good candidate.

It's such a can of worms. Even just focusing on the centers of Instrumentality, like, so ... did Kaworu, for instance, not know about the whole Mari thing?