MariShin discussion general

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

Moderators: Rebuild/OT Moderators, Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion.
Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:09 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:I don't really think this is worth getting into, so all I'll say is that I think the homoeroticism is near impossible to deny, especially now after 3.0+1.0 where Kaworu flat out states that he was attracted to Shinji and their relationship is directly paralleled with Gendo and Yui's. Very hard indeed to write all that off as just silly westerners projecting, but I suppose certain types will always find some way to deny or downplay it.


To be fair, the words in Japanese when Kaworu said he was attracted to Shinji seem to be ambiguous.

Kaworu said 君にひかれた ("kimi ni hikareta"). These words could imply a romantic attraction, but it doesn't necessarily mean that.

So, 3.0+1.0 continues the tradition of ambiguous words for Kaworu's feelings.


PS: That said, I don't know how people could say this ambiguity is a western thing when it clearly exist in Japanese.

EzioAuditore1456
Embryo
Posts: 26
Joined: Aug 28, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EzioAuditore1456 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:31 pm

View Original PostAlan_81 wrote:Because Shinji appears older? And if it’s the “same” Mari as before? She would be the same age as his mum!

Why is it Mari is always playing cupid? First with Yuri and Gendo then Asuka and Shinji


Considering what they seem to have for moms, like Yui, Naoko and even Misato, I definitely wouldn't blame him lol

Alan_81 wrote:Appart from pretty girl with big boobs? Lol.

yes close female and male friends can “flirt” as friends, BUT it’s so often hinting at “truer” unspoken feeling thinly veiled in the form of jest.

Like Misato does in NGE claiming she wasn’t going to “put the moves on” a 14 year old Shinji when she moves him into her apartment!


Kinda, although there are certainly those cases, from my personal experience I'd say that most times there are no thinly veiled feelings at all and people tend to do so merely for fun or due to previously acquired intimacy, something many people seem to completely miss to feel the need to think they ought to be together due to that interaction alone regardless of all the official statements confirming the very opposite is true.

Archer wrote:I think it’s kind of silly to suggest that there was zero homoerotic intent there. That being said, its significance is also HEAVILY overemphasized in the Western fandom using dodgy evidence that mostly comes from a misunderstanding of Japanese culture.


That is pretty much what I'm trying to say, the homoerotic undertones were nothing but a interpretation of the fandom that the creators ultimately embraced as being valid, but the true intent was to focus on the nature of humanity as a species and as a concept, for he was able to feel human feelings even not being human as the naturally conceived perception of the word. Let's not forget that Khara's new translation severely changed the nature of their dialogue to leave homoerotic undertones much more distant than the previous translations, which only solidifies the idea that their original intention was for their relationship to be nothing more than friendly in nature.

TyroLuuki wrote:I think speculating on the exact nature of Kaworu and Shinji's relationship in NGE is a fruitless endeavor because the main takeaway from that episode shouldn't be what kind of love they had for each other, but just the fact that they loved each other...thus we can understand why Shinji acts the way he does after Kaworu's death. Likewise, theorizing on the types of relationships Mari/Shinji, Kensuke/Asuka, and even Kaworu/Rei have with each other should play second fiddle to the main point: which is that they have those supporting and validating relationships in the first place, and that allows them to realize they are more than their existence as Eva pilots. They have places to belong to outside of the Eva via their relationships with others, that is I think the main takeaway here. I don't think we're ever going to get a clear answer on if Mari/Shinji (and Kensuke/Asuka) are together or not, I think it was left purposely ambiguous as to not detract from the main idea that he has someone to rely on in her. Though personally, I think their relationship leans more towards romantic because Shinji does flirt back with her.

One of the seiyuu (I think it was Asuka's iirc) said at one of the events a few months ago that a main theme of this movie is Love (and probably Rebuild in general, hence it's always a main verse in every Utada song), and I couldn't agree more. The love of friends, family, objects of affection, etc. - Shinji experiences all these types of love in this movie and that is what gives him the strength to stand up and recover and face his father with empathy/understanding instead of hatred/fear. Although I have a lot of issues with how this idea is executed in the movie, I do like its message on a conceptual level.


Normally that could be the case, but the fact is that some interpretations can - and will - ruin some things the creators wants to elicit. Taking as the perfect example is Kensuke's parental relationship with Asuka. Although you and many more people might think seeing them as romantically involved is a valid interpretation, the very opposite is true - in fact, Tsurumaki, Anno's assistant director and de facto #2 in the last movie, got so incredibly pissed off at the interpretation people had of their relationship as being romantic that even a month after the theatrical release of the movie he was still mad about it. Some things are supposed to be taken in a certain way, even in a heavily interpretative franchise like this one. The same way, the staff involved on the ending already confirmed that were no romantic feelings between them at the train station, thus making any different interpretations simply invalid. The whole premise of the last movie is pretty much how almost anything can be true, but that is only after the ending - so they actually can get together, but as long as that happens inside your head and after the canonical end.

Konja7 wrote:To be fair, the words in Japanese when Kaworu said he was attracted to Shinji seem to be ambiguous.

Kaworu said 君にひかれた ("kimi ni hikareta"). These words could imply a romantic attraction, but it doesn't necessarily mean that.

So, 3.0+1.0 mantains the tradition of ambiguous words for Kaworu's feelings.


PS: That said, I don't know how people could say this ambiguity is a western thing when it clearly exist in Japanese.


Actually, in case someone got me wrong, I meant to say that the ambiguity clearly exists but for reasons beyond being romantic - it has more to do with an non human being having human feelings and the consequential questioning of the concept of what being human means - he never expresses "near impossible to deny" gay feelings or even undertones because the ambiguity of their interaction is key to his nature that then bases their relationship, not the opposite - just take how he never uses the more common yet still ambiguous depiction of intimate or romantic love as suki or the even less ambiguous depiction of romantic love ai. The western viewers and shippers just blow things way out of proportion.

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:51 pm

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:Normally that could be the case, but the fact is that some interpretations can - and will - ruin some things the creators wants to elicit. Taking as the perfect example is Kensuke's parental relationship with Asuka. Although you and many more people might think seeing them as romantically involved is a valid interpretation, the very opposite is true - in fact, Tsurumaki, Anno's assistant director and de facto #2 in the last movie, got so incredibly pissed off at the interpretation people had of their relationship as being romantic that even a month after the theatrical release of the movie he was still mad about it. Some things are supposed to be taken in a certain way, even in a heavily interpretative franchise like this one. The same way, the staff involved on the ending already confirmed that were no romantic feelings between them at the train station, thus making any different interpretations simply invalid. The whole premise of the last movie is pretty much how almost anything can be true, but that is only after the ending - so they actually can get together, but as long as that happens inside your head and after the canonical end.


I've never heard that Tsurumaki was angry about a romantic interpretation between Kensuke and Asuka. What is it your source?

In fact, it has been mentioned in an interview the camera scene where Kensuke records Asuka was created with the idea of a romantic scene.

The fans were so upset by this, that Khara had to write a statement (in English and Japanese):to give support to the staff member who said that.


Regarding Mari and Shinji, I remember that it was said that the scene did not necessarily have to be romantic, but I don't think they outright denied the romantic relationship. I don't know where I can find that interview again.

TyroLuuki
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 51
Joined: May 18, 2021
Gender: Female

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby TyroLuuki » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:58 pm

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:he never uses the more common yet still ambiguous depiction of intimate or romantic love as suki

He doesn't say it in Rebuild, but Kaworu does indeed say suki to Shinji during the bath scene in NGE (好きってことさ / Suki tte koto sa). Likewise, Shinji says suki when talking about his feelings for Kaworu to Misato later in the episode (好きだった / Suki datta).

The same suki is used when Rei is talking about her feelings for Shinji in this movie, and when Asuka and Shinji talk about their feelings for each other. In all cases, Khara translated those sukis as "like". So I don't see how their Netflix translation was made to intentionally remove homoeroticism when they did the same exact translation in Rei/Shinji and Shinji/Asuka's case...
Kaworu and Asuka deserved better tbh

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:22 pm

View Original PostTyroLuuki wrote:The same suki is used when Rei is talking about her feelings for Shinji in this movie, and when Asuka and Shinji talk about their feelings for each other. In all cases, Khara translated those sukis as "like". So I don't see how their Netflix translation was made to intentionally remove homoeroticism when they did the same exact translation in Rei/Shinji and Shinji/Asuka's case...


I have understand the word suki could be ambiguous. In the same way, the word "like" could be ambiguous too.

However, in Asuka's case, the context of the conversation wouldn't allow the word suki to have a non-romantic meaning.

In Rei Q's case, I've understood her words should be pretty ambiguous, but the English sub went for the more shippy interpretation


PS: In NGE, Kaworu used suki, but it still ambiguous if his feelings are romantic.

TyroLuuki
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 51
Joined: May 18, 2021
Gender: Female

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby TyroLuuki » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:36 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I have understand the word suki could be ambiguous

Rather than ambiguous, maybe it's more accurate to call it an all-encompassing word? Suki is used all the time between Japanese speakers just like "love" and like" are commonly used between English speakers.

My line of thinking is:
It's been established Rei Q is programmed to have affection towards the Third Boy, so it makes sense for her suki na hito to refer to him. Thus, romantic. I'd also like to mention Shinji says suki na hito about Kaworu in episode 25, too.
After Shinji says he liked Asuka, she blushes. Thus, romantic. When Kaworu says he likes Shinji, he blushes. Thus, romantic.
When Shinji said he likes Kaji Jr. there's no intimate context there. Thus, non-romantic.
Kaworu and Asuka deserved better tbh

TyroLuuki
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 51
Joined: May 18, 2021
Gender: Female

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby TyroLuuki » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:57 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Kaworu said 君にひかれた ("kimi ni hikareta")

I forgot to mention, this is also another neat thing about how Japanese is used in Eva that may not come across in translations for people that aren't fluent in the language.
Hikareta's connotation can change based on the Kanji it's spelled with:
君に惹かれた implies romantic attraction - "I was attracted to you", while 君に引かれた implies a more platonic "I was drawn to you".
However the Japanese script here opts for writing hikareta in Hiragana (君にひかれた) which allows for both interpretations. But for Japanese audiences who most likely won't be watching the movie with captions, they'd only hear hikareta and interpret it as one of the two...or even a mix of both!
It's similar to Kaworu's 好意 / コウイ in episode 24, but this isn't just exclusive to his lines. Anno likes to make use of the ambiguity of Japanese with lots of other lines said by characters in the show and Rebuild, but I fear I've already gotten way too off-topic here so I'll leave that for a more suitable thread haha.
Kaworu and Asuka deserved better tbh

EzioAuditore1456
Embryo
Posts: 26
Joined: Aug 28, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EzioAuditore1456 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:29 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I've never heard that Tsurumaki was angry about a romantic interpretation between Kensuke and Asuka. What is it your source?

In fact, it has been mentioned in an interview the camera scene where Kensuke records Asuka was created with the idea of a romantic scene.

The fans were so upset by this, that Khara had to write a statement (in English and Japanese):to give support to the staff member who said that.


Regarding Mari and Shinji, I remember that it was said that the scene did not necessarily have to be romantic, but I don't think they outright denied the romantic relationship. I don't know where I can find that interview again.


Here it is mate https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Evangelion:_3.0%2B1.0_Thrice_Upon_A_Time#cite_note-21, you might want to refer to notes 18, 19, 20, 22 and 23 as well. About the staff having denied a romantic relationship betwen Shinji and Mari, refer to my original post, although you can also find them in the same link. Honestly, things would be considerably easier if people just bothered reading the wiki pages, not necessarily because of the compilation of theories - I mostly don't care much about other people's theories because I've got mine own - but I do care about what the very creators of the franchise tried to convene, hence why reading the footnotes and translated interviews is so important and can avoid most of the common mistakes, like these ones.

TyroLuuki wrote:He doesn't say it in Rebuild, but Kaworu does indeed say suki to Shinji during the bath scene in NGE (好きってことさ / Suki tte koto sa). Likewise, Shinji says suki when talking about his feelings for Kaworu to Misato later in the episode (好きだった / Suki datta).

The same suki is used when Rei is talking about her feelings for Shinji in this movie, and when Asuka and Shinji talk about their feelings for each other. In all cases, Khara translated those sukis as "like". So I don't see how their Netflix translation was made to intentionally remove homoeroticism when they did the same exact translation in Rei/Shinji and Shinji/Asuka's case...


I'm not sure how acquainted you are with the old translations, but some - there were many lol - translations were heavily homoerotic, including "love" as the direct translation of pretty much everything. Khara's oversight helped establish the new direct translations in more ambiguous terms, such as "like" or "worth of my grace" - grace being a synonym of affection - so in that sense they did try to tone down the homoerotic interpretations some of the old translations were giving.

Konja7 wrote:I have understand the word suki could be ambiguous. In the way, the word "like" could be ambiguous.

However, in Asuka's case, the context of the conversation wouldn't allow the word suki to have a non-romantic meaning.

In Rei's case, I've understood her words could be more ambiguous, but the English sub went for the more shippy interpretation


Pretty much this. "Like" is ambiguous in both languages, with the bonus of Japanese being an extremely context based language. Even suki has ambiguous interpretations depending on context - daisuki might mean affectionate love, intimate love or even romantic love - being that the word considered best suited to represent romantic love is ai, as in aishiteru - although my comprehension of Japanese isn't exactly top notch, so you might want to refer to an actual scholar.

TyroLuuki wrote:When Shinji said he likes Kaji Jr. there's no intimate context there. Thus, non-romantic.


*Ahem* Are you sure of that

TyroLuuki wrote:It's similar to Kaworu's 好意 / コウイ in episode 24, but this isn't just exclusive to his lines. Anno likes to make use of the ambiguity of Japanese with lots of other lines said by characters in the show and Rebuild, but I fear I've already gotten way too off-topic here so I'll leave that for a more suitable thread haha.


I can't quite remember where I saw it but Dan Kanemitsu - the original series' official English translator - affirmed that the meaning was the platonic "drawn to you", and that also makes sense considering the whole time loop theory. But hey, don't sweat it, the whole point of the original post was to clarify how Mari and Shinji aren't romantically involved at the end of the last movie and here we are discussing how gay Mari is.

TyroLuuki
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 51
Joined: May 18, 2021
Gender: Female

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby TyroLuuki » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:29 pm

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:so in that sense they did try to tone down the homoerotic interpretations some of the old translations were giving.

My argument is that the intention doesn't seem to be about toning down homoeroticism when the same translators use "like" instead of "love" for the sukis said between Rei/Shinji and Asuka/Shinji in this movie, and people have still been interpreting those likes as romantic regardless.
The "worthy of my grace" line was definitely weird as hell, but I assume the translator chose a more "creative" translation to play up Kaworu's angelic-ness. Though iirc that line was changed last year to worthy of my affection in Netflix's subtitles, probably because grace isn't a viable translation for 好意.

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote: the word considered best suited to represent romantic love is ai, as in aishiteru - although my comprehension of Japanese isn't exactly top notch, so you might want to refer to an actual scholar.

Yeah, not necessarily. Gendo tells Shinji 愛している / Aishiteiru in this very movie during the train station scene and he definitely didn't mean it in a romantic way...
Though Aishiteiru is certainly one of the more intense and blunt ways to express love than suki or daisuki, hence why Japanese people don't say it all too often to not come off too strong.

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:I can't quite remember where I saw it but Dan Kanemitsu - the original series' official English translator - affirmed that the meaning was the platonic "drawn to you"

Hm, not saying you're lying but I'd like to see a source for this before I believe it. Kanemitsu ultimately chose to translate Kaworu's line as "I was attracted to you", not "I was drawn to you".
Kaworu and Asuka deserved better tbh

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:46 pm

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:Here it is mate https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Evangelion:_3.0%2B1.0_Thrice_Upon_A_Time#cite_note-21, you might want to refer to notes 18, 19, 20, 22 and 23 as well. About the staff having denied a romantic relationship betwen Shinji and Mari, refer to my original post, although you can also find them in the same link. Honestly, things would be considerably easier if people just bothered reading the wiki pages, not necessarily because of the compilation of theories - I mostly don't care much about other people's theories because I've got mine own - but I do care about what the very creators of the franchise tried to convene, hence why reading the footnotes and translated interviews is so important and can avoid most of the common mistakes, like these ones.

Thank you for the answer.

However, it is just said that Tsurumaki was annoyed over the Asuka and Kenken thing. It doesn't say he is angry with fans for assuming that (in a certain perspective, that could imply that Asuka x Kenken is a real pairing, but Tsurumaki doesn't like it :emogendo:).

As I said, it was mentioned in an interview in newtype magazine that the camera scene was created with a romantic vibe.


The other footnotes are from VAs. I don't think they know so much about the staff plans. I've understood Evangelion's VAs haven't even seen the scenes when they recorded.

Ogata wasn't even Shinji's VA in the train station scene.



View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:Pretty much this. "Like" is ambiguous in both languages, with the bonus of Japanese being an extremely context based language. Even suki has ambiguous interpretations depending on context - daisuki might mean affectionate love, intimate love or even romantic love - being that the word considered best suited to represent romantic love is ai, as in aishiteru - although my comprehension of Japanese isn't exactly top notch, so you might want to refer to an actual scholar.

The thing is aishiteru exist, but it is uncommon to use it. So, suki is the common word used for romantic confessions too.

At the end, it depends on the context:

In 3.0+1.0, there isn't a way the suki mentioned by Asuka wasn't romantic due to the context. Instead, Rei Q could be more ambiguous with her suki, because I've understood it isn't even clear if she likes one person or several (the english sub choose the shippy interpretation).

In NGE, Kaworu suki is ambiguous, because the context couldn't define his exact feelings (only that he likes Shinji).

Settie
Sachiel
Sachiel
User avatar
Age: 37
Posts: 212
Joined: Mar 17, 2017
Location: The deep south
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Settie » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:20 pm

It's kinda hard to write off their final interactions as "just friends" though. For one even if you disregard Maris action as just a Mari thing, Shinji is entirely different. The way he flirts back to her is, the way i see it, more than just a sign of him being grown up.To me it signifies an interest, particularly from Shinji, that goes beyond regular chit chat. i mean calling someone cute isn't exactly subtle, especially if you just met a couple hours ago. There's too much familiarity there for two people who are very much complete strangers to each other to not be implying something more than "just friends".

T. K. Simon
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 112
Joined: May 02, 2021
Location: Argentina, from Colombia
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby T. K. Simon » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:26 pm

About Asu x ken, beyond the camera scene having the interpretation of "romantic", it is clear in the pre-3.0 manga (supervised by Anno) and in Shin that Asuka has not forgotten her crush on Shinji at all. (the beach scene says it all).

Sure, we don't know what happens after she comes back
.mas knowing that it is not clear if Shinji is in the "real" world (the evangelion world) or in the antiverse at the end of Shin.
Asuka could stick with Kensuke and form a relationship, or just the opposite.
And if Shinji really returns to the "real" world .....
The ending was left ambiguous on purpose

About mari x Shinji, it's even more ambiguous, it's okay if you see them as friends or lovers, you could say that Shinji has grown up, has come out of his shell and is trying to socialize and be more confident.
or Shinji has a real interest in mari

EzioAuditore1456
Embryo
Posts: 26
Joined: Aug 28, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EzioAuditore1456 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:34 pm

View Original PostTyroLuuki wrote:My argument is that the intention doesn't seem to be about toning down homoeroticism when the same translators use "like" instead of "love" for the sukis said between Rei/Shinji and Asuka/Shinji in this movie, and people have still been interpreting those likes as romantic regardless.
The "worthy of my grace" line was definitely weird as hell, but I assume the translator chose a more "creative" translation to play up Kaworu's angelic-ness. Though iirc that line was changed last year to worthy of my affection in Netflix's subtitles, probably because grace isn't a viable translation for 好意.


Actually now that you mention it I had forgotten that Netflix did change their translations a second time between the original release in 2019 and sometime in 2020, so I can't actually comment on which translation they were referring to - although I believe it was the first one - but yeah, grace felt a bit weird and out of place, at least for people that were already acquainted with his background.

TyroLuuki wrote:Yeah, not necessarily. Gendo tells Shinji 愛している / Aishiteiru in this very movie during the train station scene and he definitely didn't mean it in a romantic way...
Though Aishiteiru is certainly one of the more intense and blunt ways to express love than suki or daisuki, hence why Japanese people don't say it all too often to not come off too strong.


Yeah, I actually meant love in a more decisive, unambiguous way, but since we were talking about romantic feelings I emphasized that meaning, didn't mean to say it's exclusively romantic. Japanese people are rather different from westerners on how to express all the types of love, hence why some things like kabedons and love confessions might seem so alien to us sometimes - at least at first, when our knowledge of Japanese culture is rather thin.

TyroLuuki wrote:Hm, not saying you're lying but I'd like to see a source for this before I believe it. Kanemitsu ultimately chose to translate Kaworu's line as "I was attracted to you", not "I was drawn to you".


I'd totally get you a source but I honestly can't remember where I saw that, but as far as I remember that's what I read, although I might be wrong since that was something I read around a week ago or so and ever since the last movie came out I've been reading a shitload of things. Either way, since you seem more knowledgeable in Japanese than me we can see this your way, I don't mind since feeling attracted by and be drawn to can both have very similar - yet still ambiguous - meanings and the direct translation might even depend on localization, although ideally we shouldn't depend on translations to other languages to be able to set intent.

Konja7 wrote:Thank you for the answer.

However, it is just said that Tsurumaki was annoyed over the Asuka and Kenken thing. It doesn't say he is angry with fans for assuming that.

In a certain perspective, that could imply that Asuka x Kenken is real pairing, but Tsurumaki doesn't like it :emogendo:


The other footnotes are from VAs. I don't think they know so much about staff plans. I've understood Evangelion's VAs haven't even seen the scenes when they recorded.

Ogata wasn't even Shinji's VA in the train scene.


Considering the context of the previous entries and footnotes it's explicit that his anger is due to the erroneous notion that they're romantically involved, being that Tsurumaki was in charge of most of the movie's direction and everything Asuka related. In fact, Hideaki Anno himself audibly laughed at the notion of something romantic going on between them - refer to footnotes 18 and 20. Besides, being present or not during the recording of the scenes is rather irrelevant as it's very clear - honestly, it's really just common sense - that the voice actors are instructed by the personnel directly involved in the storytelling, instructing them how to act based on what feelings they want them to convey, and many times the VAs themselves take part in the creative process - hence why literally everyone involved in the train scene denying romantic feelings between Mari and Shinji is so relevant. It's also worth pointing out that Tsurumaki had nearly total creative liberty - at least according to Anno himself, so take that with a grain of salt - to decide most of the things in the last movie, due to him wanting to flourish the next generation of the franchise and the revival of the anime industry and etc., so it's extremely unlikely that he'd end up having to put up with a pairing that he explicitly didn't want to happen and that no one in the cast approved of - refer to footnotes 19 and 22.

Konja7 wrote:The thing is aishiteru exist, but it is uncommon to use it. So, suki is the common word used for romantic confessions too.

At the end, it depends on the context:

In 3.0+1.0, there isn't a way the suki mentioned by Asuka wasn't romantic due to the context. Instead, Rei Q could be more ambiguous with her suki, because I've understood it isn't even clear if she likes one person or several (the english sub choose the shippy interpretation).

In NGE, Kaworu is ambiguous, because the context couldn't define his exact feelings (only that he likes Shinji).


Yeah, the funny thing about their language is that absolutely everything heavily depends on context. Honestly, I didn't stop to think too much about Rei Q's meaning of suki, at the moment I was more concerned about how they made the poor girl dirty (RIP)

Settie wrote:It's kinda hard to write off their final interactions as "just friends" though. For one even if you disregard Maris action as just a Mari thing, Shinji is entirely different. The way he flirts back to her is, the way i see it, more than just a sign of him being grown up.To me it signifies an interest, particularly from Shinji, that goes beyond regular chit chat. i mean calling someone cute isn't exactly subtle, especially if you just met a couple hours ago. There's too much familiarity there for two people who are very much complete strangers to each other to not be implying something more than "just friends".


Honestly, I think that's mostly just your interpretation of things. Let's not forget that there are people and people, so while some words or actions can be much more deep and relevant for, lets say, a German, it might not be the case for, lets say, an Italian, due to the differences in their usual interpersonal relations and overall culture. I personally never felt anything romantic between them, much to the opposite, I happened to feel exactly what the creators wanted to convene with that scene - a more mature, grown up Shinji. In fact, some people might not even consider the usage of such words in their dialogue as flirting. As I said, it's not that people are wrong for desiring them to be together, but there were specific feelings that the staff wanted to convey and they weren't romantic at all, canonically speaking they're not a couple. Shipping them isn't bad, affirming such ship to be canon based on an interpretation proven to be flawed, is.

T. K. Simon wrote:or who has a real interest in mari


I have a real interest in Mari thank you very much

T. K. Simon
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 112
Joined: May 02, 2021
Location: Argentina, from Colombia
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby T. K. Simon » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:39 pm

I have a real interest in Mari thank you very much


The translator ......... Corrected

EzioAuditore1456
Embryo
Posts: 26
Joined: Aug 28, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby EzioAuditore1456 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:48 pm

View Original PostT. K. Simon wrote:The translator ......... Corrected


It's just a joke bro don't sweat it. I just really love Mari.

T. K. Simon
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 112
Joined: May 02, 2021
Location: Argentina, from Colombia
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby T. K. Simon » Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:59 pm

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:
View Original PostT. K. Simon#930715 wrote:The translator ......... Corrected


It's just a joke bro don't sweat it. I just really love Mari.


Anyway, nothing happens, because I don't speak English, I use the translator and it translates anything most of the time. :lol:

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:05 pm

View Original PostEzioAuditore1456 wrote:Considering the context of the previous entries and footnotes it's explicit that his anger is due to the erroneous notion that they're romantically involved, being that Tsurumaki was in charge of most of the movie's direction and everything Asuka related. In fact, Hideaki Anno himself audibly laughed at the notion of something romantic going on between them - refer to footnotes 18 and 20. Besides, being present or not during the recording of the scenes is rather irrelevant as it's very clear - honestly, it's really just common sense - that the voice actors are instructed by the personnel directly involved in the storytelling, instructing them how to act based on what feelings they want them to convey, and many times the VAs themselves take part in the creative process - hence why literally everyone involved in the train scene denying romantic feelings between Mari and Shinji is so relevant. It's also worth pointing out that Tsurumaki had nearly total creative liberty - at least according to Anno himself, so take that with a grain of salt - to decide most of the things in the last movie, due to him wanting to flourish the next generation of the franchise and the revival of the anime industry and etc., so it's extremely unlikely that he'd end up having to put up with a pairing that he explicitly didn't want to happen and that no one in the cast approved of - refer to footnotes 19 and 22.


The previous footnotes in the wiki aren't connected to what Tsurumaki said.


This is the twitter (where Hidenori Matsubara talk about what Tsurumaki said):



This twitter isn't connected to any other information in the footnotes (that are from totally different interviews).

So, there isn't a hint that he is angry due to the erroneous notion that they're romantically involved. It's pretty possible he isn't a fan of the couple.


PS: Honestly, I've doubts on Miyamura's statements, since she is clearly uncomfortable with the possibility of this couple. It's even possible she didn't even know Asuka become an adult at the end of her Instrumentality.
Last edited by Konja7 on Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:31 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:23 pm

Also, this is what was said by Touko Yatabe (deputy director):

--Are there any cuts that left a lasting impression on you?
Yatabe: In the sequence where Kensuke points his video camera at Asuka, we were told, "Make it similar to a scene between lovers". Fans who've been watching Evangelion all these years would definitely be happy to see Asuka happy, so I felt it was important to get the scene done right.


https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Evan ... irector.29


PS: Of course, this just means the direction of that moment was to be like a love scene.

T. K. Simon
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 112
Joined: May 02, 2021
Location: Argentina, from Colombia
Gender: Male

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby T. K. Simon » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:31 pm

PS: Of course, this just means the direction of that moment was to be like love scene.


That, beyond that at first it was thought that way, the final result seems not to be like that, therefore, it is not canon

It reminds me of the scripts from e24, in which several scenes were lowered to the first episodes (the kiss scene from the original e24 was lowered to the one from e15)
The 1st draft appears to be from the "Evangelion Proposal"
The 2nd seems to be close to the e24 we saw.

Konja7
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
Posts: 1376
Joined: Aug 04, 2019

Re: Why Shinji and Mari DID NOT end up as a couple: Explained

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Konja7 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:53 pm

View Original PostT. K. Simon wrote:That, beyond that at first it was thought that way, the final result seems not to be like that, therefore, it is not canon


Well, this doesn't seem to be a discarded idea. After all, it's mentioned they were told to make the camera scene with the idea of lovers in mind.

If the scene doesn't convey that impression, maybe it's because they realized a bad work :tongue:


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests