MariShin discussion general

[T. K. Simon]

That, beyond that at first it was thought that way, the final result seems not to be like that, therefore, it is not canon

Well, this doesn't seem to be a discarded idea. After all, it's mentioned they were told to make the camera scene with the idea of lovers in mind.

If the scene doesn't convey that impression, maybe it's because they realized a bad work

Well, I think that saying is not canon is not the correct word, and also as you said, they failed a lot to give that impression, which was thought but not reciprocated (we don't know hehe).

Although as I insist, the prequel manga and Shin himself make clear Asuka's romantic feelings for Shinji, and her relationship with Kensuke is left ambiguous after her departure from the Antiverse.

[EzioAuditore1456]

The previous footnotes in the wiki aren't connected to what Tsurumaki said.


This is the twitter (where Hidenori Matsubara talk about what Tsurumaki said):

tweet-body

— twitter-user (@username) date

This twitter isn't connected to any other information in the footnotes (that are from totally different interviews).

So, there isn't a hint that he is angry due to the erroneous notion that they're romantically involved. It's pretty possible he isn't a fan of the couple.


PS: Honestly, I've doubts on Miyamura's statements, since she is clearly uncomfortable with the possibility of this couple. It's even possible she didn't even know Asuka become an adult at the end of her Instrumentality.

The other footnotes are about the perception of Kensuke and Asuka as lovers - basically about how everyone thought it would be a bad idea lol. Like, you literally can't find another reason for him to be mad except for the erroneous perception that they are a couple - as I said, he could've easily allowed or vetoed the idea of them being a couple, there's absolutely no logic on him being mad at something he clearly had control of. It's like choosing to bake a cake, bake the cake and being pissed off that you're eating cake - it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Also, as I said, the VAs are many times involved in the creative process of the series, and absolutely nothing points out to Asuka's being uncomfortable merely because she allegedly wasn't aware that she'd grow up at the end. She could be perfectly aware of the grown up Asuka in the ending and also about how things would've been left open ended enough that she could be paired with anyone. What you say only makes sense if someone tries to severely disregard absolutely everything pointing out to Tsurumaki being legitimately pissed off at an erroneous interpretation that, let's not forget, Hideaki Anno himself laughed at - to Asuka's VA, no less.

Also, this is what was said by Touko Yatabe (deputy director):

--Are there any cuts that left a lasting impression on you?
Yatabe: In the sequence where Kensuke points his video camera at Asuka, we were told, "Make it similar to a scene between lovers". Fans who've been watching Evangelion all these years would definitely be happy to see Asuka happy, so I felt it was important to get the scene done right.

https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Evan ... irector.29


PS: Of course, this just means the direction of that moment was to be like a love scene.

I was aware of that but as you even said it yourself, it only applies to that specific scene. While under other circumstances that could mean something, considering the entire context surrounding their relationship it means absolutely nothing but a stylistic choice.

That, beyond that at first it was thought that way, the final result seems not to be like that, therefore, it is not canon

It reminds me of the scripts from e24, in which several scenes were lowered to the first episodes (the kiss scene from the original e24 was lowered to the one from e15)
The 1st draft appears to be from the "Evangelion Proposal"
The 2nd seems to be close to the e24 we saw.

I seriously can't see why some people still insist on them being a couple when it's already been clearly and unequivocally stated that they're not romantically involved - applies to Mari and Shinji as well. Some people want things their way regardless of everything, including basic logic and common sense.

Although as I insist, the prequel manga and Shin himself make clear Asuka's romantic feelings for Shinji, and her relationship with Kensuke is left ambiguous after her departure from the Antiverse.

Honestly, the whole antiuniverse thing is ambiguous af lol

PS: on another note, what they probably meant about the video camera scene was to portray the common scenario in romantic media in which someone - usually the female - gets embarrassed when they notice they're being recorded, so it's mostly about referencing a common trope about recording someone else and having a reaction typical of romantic media, and not that the portrayal was supposed to feel romantic itself. They do like to make a lot of references, especially military ones.

[T. K. Simon]

PS: on another note, what they probably meant about the video camera scene was to portray the common scenario in romantic media in which someone - usually the female - gets embarrassed when they notice they're being recorded, so it's mostly about referencing a common trope about recording someone else and having a reaction typical of romantic media, and not that the portrayal was supposed to feel romantic itself. They do like to make a lot of references, especially military ones.

This seems more logical to me, since they failed a lot if they wanted to portray them as "lovers"

Although I trust the film director more than a VA

[Konja7]

The other footnotes are about the perception of Kensuke and Asuka as lovers - basically about how everyone thought it would be a bad idea lol. Like, you literally can't find another reason for him to be mad except for the erroneous perception that they are a couple - as I said, he could've easily allowed or vetoed the idea of them being a couple, there's absolutely no logic on him being mad at something he clearly had control of. It's like choosing to bake a cake, bake the cake and being pissed off that you're eating cake - it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Also, as I said, the VAs are many times involved in the creative process of the series, and absolutely nothing points out to Asuka's being uncomfortable merely because she allegedly wasn't aware that she'd grow up at the end. She could be perfectly aware of the grown up Asuka in the ending and also about how things would've been left open ended enough that she could be paired with anyone. What you say only makes sense if someone tries to severely disregard absolutely everything pointing out to Tsurumaki being legitimately pissed off at an erroneous interpretation that, let's not forget, Hideaki Anno himself laughed at - to Asuka's VA, no less..

Honestly, Tsurumaki could be mad at the fans, because they could be problematic. When Touko Yatabe said that in the interview, Khara need to release a statement (in Japanese and English) to support her, because fans become hostile.

How Anno laughing proves anything?


To be clear, I don't think there was a romantic relationship between Asuka and Kensuke in the 14 years either. At most, I think there is a possibility in the future.

I just don't think VA's have enough information to use their opinions as canon.

[EzioAuditore1456]

Honestly, Tsurumaki could be mad at the fans, because they could be problematic. When Touko Yatabe said that in the interview, Khara need to release a statement (in Japanese and English) to support her, because fans become hostile.

How Anno laughing proves anything?


To be clear, I don't think there was a romantic relationship between Asuka and Kensuke in the 14 years either. At most, I think there is a possibility in the future.

I just don't think VA's have enough information to use their opinions as canon.

Being mad at the fandom is just standard practice at this point lol

Hideaki Anno laughed at the idea that they had a romantic relationship AKA the idea is so absurd he refuses to even acknowledge it, and instead just laughs it off. About VAs, I'm not particularly sure of how acquainted you are to the anime industry, but - obviously depending on the show - VAs can and will dictate a massive part of the creative process. In some cases they just do what they're told to do and go on with their lives, in other cases they can literally veto anything regarding their character, it all depends on the show - in our case, the VAs play remarkably important roles, especially Megumi Ogata, Shinji's VA. More often than not Anno would ask the VAs for input, besides all the other assistant producers and directors like Sadamoto and Tsurumaki keeping them really close while designing everything from their actual artistic design to plot ideas. The greatest example of that is Hideaki Anno himself stating that, along a personal aide, Ogata was the person that understood him the most - a VA was literally the person closest to the director and creator of the franchise after a person that's supposed to attend to his more personal, intimate needs. Another example is Anno asking Miyamura what something as important as Asuka's last line in EOE should be - the infamous kimochi warui one.

You severely underestimate the level of knowledge and influence VAs can and often have.

[Axx°N N.]

That is pretty much what I'm trying to say, the homoerotic undertones were nothing but a interpretation of the fandom that the creators ultimately embraced as being valid, but the true intent was to focus on the nature of humanity as a species and as a concept, for he was able to feel human feelings even not being human as the naturally conceived perception of the word.

That's simply not an accurate statement, though. In fact the opposite of your proposed timeline is more accurate. There existed even more overt undertones in the JUNE-published Akio Satsukawa drafts of what would become episode 24, only for the revised Anno script to downplay those elements. Both Anno and Sadamoto refer to those scripts as unambiguously homoerotic, even "near pornography." The undertones originated with the episode's conceptualization; the most you can say is that Anno took them and corrected them into what we got, which is something far more ambiguous. It's not at all that the audience fabricated undertones, ran off with the idea and then it was acknowledged retrospectively. There's a reason the episode was received that way, however softened it was, because there was still fire at the source of the smoke. Regardless, you can both acknowledge this and still find episode 24 to lack actual gay content. I don't see the need to put fingers in your ears; one fact doesn't threaten the other.

[EzioAuditore1456]

That's simply not an accurate statement, though. In fact the opposite of your proposed timeline is more accurate. There existed even more overt undertones in the JUNE-published Akio Satsukawa drafts of what would become episode 24, only for the revised Anno script to downplay those elements. Both Anno and Sadamoto refer to those scripts as unambiguously homoerotic, even "near pornography." The undertones originated with the episode's conceptualization; the most you can say is that Anno took them and corrected them into what we got, which is something far more ambiguous. It's not at all that the audience fabricated undertones, ran off with the idea and then it was acknowledged retrospectively. There's a reason the episode was received that way, however softened it was, because there was still fire at the source of the smoke. Regardless, you can both acknowledge this and still find episode 24 to lack actual gay content. I don't see the need to put fingers in your ears; one fact doesn't threaten the other.

Well, it mostly works like that though, the preliminary scripts and storyboards are only relevant as a complement to the actual, released material, so when they're incompatible what should be taken into consideration is what hit the screen, not what could have been, so taking them and correcting into what we got isn't ambiguous at all as it's simply what happened regarding a plethora of subjects - otherwise, the entire ending of the original series would've been remarkably different from what we got, considering the early drafts from the original proposal.

[Axx°N N.]

Well, it mostly works like that though, the preliminary scripts and storyboards are only relevant as a complement to the actual, released material, so when they're incompatible what should be taken into consideration is what hit the screen, not what could have been, so taking them and correcting into what we got isn't ambiguous at all as it's simply what happened regarding a plethora of subjects - otherwise, the entire ending of the original series would've been remarkably different from what we got, considering the early drafts from the original proposal.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. The only difference in this specific case is that the original undertones poked through, in some ways intended, in some ways unintended, per Anno's statements in the interview. I don't disagree that there's a degree of misinterpretation going on when someone takes 24 as patently homoerotic, I'm just saying it's no wonder at all someone would do that, and it seems odd to pretend there's no reasonable basis and obvious foundation.

[Zusuchan]

24 has Shinji and Kaworu sharing a bath, Kaworu taking Shinji's hand and Shinji blushing, if that's not homoerotic, then I don't know what is, lol.

[Alan_81]

He doesn't say it in Rebuild, but Kaworu does indeed say suki to Shinji during the bath scene in NGE (好きってことさ / Suki tte koto sa). Likewise, Shinji says suki when talking about his feelings for Kaworu to Misato later in the episode (好きだった / Suki datta).

The franchise as a whole is made to be ambiguous, and the translations and dub change to “like” fits better within this idea.
So I actually quite like it, especially from a western audience POV we are always hoping the characters will come straight out and say they “love” each other already! Thank god this isn’t a Hollywood production and they don’t, so by keeping it at “like” It keeps us on edge and builds so much more tension. Was it the intention to frustrate the audience? If so was it worked.

I also find it hard to believe that these characters being of Japanese culture would ever be so forthright with their feels by directly admitting “love” after all, for them and their psyche it would be the hardest four letter word for them to say and or receive. Even Kaji can’t say it outright to Misato on his last ever voice recording.

Letting the audience decide has always been the EVA way.
Long may it stay that way :-)

[Alan_81]

24 has Shinji and Kaworu sharing a bath, Kaworu taking Shinji's hand and Shinji blushing, if that's not homoerotic, then I don't know what is, lol.

Kaworu is an angel disguised in human form so a humans gender and sexuality mean absolutely nothing to him! He loves Shinji for his humanity he offers him his understanding, that manifests as love or just friendship either way it’s the same feeling.

Before Shinji is forced to kill him, Kaworu straight up says he understand him (humanity) that death is his freedom, so please grant me my freedom Shinji. As our two species can not survive on this earth together.

This of cause absolutely mentally destroys Shinji as he has to kill the only “person” that he thinks truly cares for and understands him (he can’t see that others love and care for him to)

So after experiencing being touched by humanity with all their emotions and their music ( Lilin’s greatest achievement)
Kaworu admits his species “the Angels ” are not the ones that deserves to live.

So like in the terminator “I know now why you cry” type of thing.

The homoerotic stuff is only there as a side dish because “WE” see Kaworu in the form of a young man expressing love to another young man.

[T. K. Simon]

Here the issue is not that kaworu is gay ( he is an angel (Adam) in a lilim body, I suppose so)
The point is that if Shinji is bisexual or someone very confused and sad (in episode 24), because at the moment he is so lonely and clings to the person who offers him love, it is an extraordinary situation.

I don't think E1's Shinji would have done the same with kaworu.

In my opinion, Shinji is straight and kaworusexual (haha).
Or at least I see it like that

[Archer]

^lol, that’s a pretty good way of putting it and I agree.

[Axx°N N.]

The point is that if Shinji is bisexual or someone very confused and sad (in episode 24), because at the moment he is so lonely and clings to the person who offers him love, it is an extraordinary situation.

Yeah, I find it odd that the conversation has led in the direction of pigeon-holing Kaworu as the source (or not) of gay tones, completely ignoring there are two boys in this equation. Whatever Kaworu is as an entity and if it even allows the potential for being queer, Shinji is seeing the surface-level situation just as we are. To me, the ambiguously queer content was always in Shinji's reactions and what they might indicate about him, either bisexual or just bicurious. The more important thing is the Kaworu situation adds a breaking point to his confusion and angst, and the subtext is whether or not Shinji's checklist of typical teen existential dread also includes the extremely common dilemma of doubting one's sexuality.

[T. K. Simon]

The point is that if Shinji is bisexual or someone very confused and sad (in episode 24), because at the moment he is so lonely and clings to the person who offers him love, it is an extraordinary situation.

Yeah, I find it odd that the conversation has led in the direction of pigeon-holing Kaworu as the source (or not) of gay tones, completely ignoring there are two boys in this equation. Whatever Kaworu is as an entity and if it even allows the potential for being queer, Shinji is seeing the surface-level situation just as we are. To me, the ambiguously queer content was always in Shinji's reactions and what they might indicate about him, either bisexual or just bicurious. The more important thing is the Kaworu situation adds a breaking point to his confusion and angst, and the subtext is whether or not Shinji's checklist of typical teen existential dread also includes the extremely common dilemma of doubting one's sexuality.

As I said, it is difficult to say that he is bisexual for one case (Kaworu), knowing that the series has shown what he wants (ahem, bubbies), more knowing that he is in a situation of extreme loneliness and feels abandoned by everyone, and suddenly there comes a person who accepts and loves him, who also has angelic charms.

At best, he would be a Very little bi curious
person.
Or someone who at that time was simply clinging to the one who gives Love

[Axx°N N.]

As I said, it is difficult to say that he is bisexual for one case (Kaworu), knowing that the series has shown what he wants (ahem, bubbies), more knowing that he is in a situation of extreme loneliness and feels abandoned by everyone, and suddenly there comes a person who accepts and loves him, who also has angelic charms.

At best, he would be a very un-bi-curious person.
Or someone who at that time was simply clinging to the one who gives Love

I don't disagree, I like your take. But it is worth noting that in real life, I know of an instance where someone discovered they were bisexual because they happened to meet one guy they really fell in love with, even though their flavor of bisexuality still leaned far more toward women even while still being in a relationship with that guy. In that case, no one would say that person is (insert name here)-sexual, they'd just say they're bisexual, or more likely, just homosexual, because they're now in a gay relationship. In real life these things are sometimes hard to categorize, too.

[Archer]

If anything, Shinji comes off to me as someone who’s pretty comfortable with his sexuality. He knows he likes boobies, and at no point is he shown questioning or angsting over his feelings for Kaworu. I can’t help but feel the interpretation that Shinji is struggling with his sexuality is nothing but projection with no textual evidence, because Shinji really doesn’t seem to worry or care much about the fact that his interactions with Kaworu could possibly be interpreted as gay, and if he generally seems to be taking it in stride, then he is by definition not “struggling with” or “questioning” his sexuality, based on what is shown on screen.

Overall I think I’m pretty satisfied putting Shinji’s sexual preference down as “women and also Kaworu”.

[T. K. Simon]

I don't disagree, I like your take. But it is worth noting that in real life, I know of an instance where someone discovered they were bisexual because they happened to meet one guy they really fell in love with, even though their flavor of bisexuality still leaned far more toward women even while still being in a relationship with that guy. In that case, no one would say that person is (insert name here)-sexual, they'd just say they're bisexual, or more likely, just homosexual, because they're now in a gay relationship. In real life these things are sometimes hard to categorize, too.

Sure, I also understand your opinion, but it is not less the situation of Shinji in e24 is extraordinary, and that a boy with angelic features approaches him and offers him unconditional love (what Shinji wanted at that time), it was like a escape from reality (kaworu's love was not "realistic")

After all, perhaps shinii is a bicurious with an almost total inclination to women, or a pansexual.

Pd: obviously, nobody in life would say that the person is a (name-sexual) , but Shinji never seemed interested in men in the whole series, added that in e24 he only wanted love from anyone, it is difficult to catalog

Overall I think I’m pretty satisfied putting Shinji’s sexual preference down as “women and also Kaworu”.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that Shinji was much more attracted to the kaworu person (his being), than he was sexually attracted to him.

Like everything in Eva, it is ambiguous

Merged, multiple posts. Use the "Edit" button to add more stuff in your post. - JoelcrNeto

[Konja7]

I don't disagree, I like your take. But it is worth noting that in real life, I know of an instance where someone discovered they were bisexual because they happened to meet one guy they really fell in love with, even though their flavor of bisexuality still leaned far more toward women even while still being in a relationship with that guy. In that case, no one would say that person is (insert name here)-sexual, they'd just say they're bisexual, or more likely, just homosexual, because they're now in a gay relationship. In real life these things are sometimes hard to categorize, too.

It's true that there are people who could discover their sexuality due to one person. However, the situation with Shinji in episode 24 could be ambiguous, since Shinji's behaviour could be related to the loneliness he felt at that point.

I should mention that many bisexual people don't like the idea to be categorized as homosexual because they are in a gay relationship (or heterosexual because they are in a straight relationship).

[EzioAuditore1456]

24 has Shinji and Kaworu sharing a bath, Kaworu taking Shinji's hand and Shinji blushing, if that's not homoerotic, then I don't know what is, lol.

Here we have someone who has absolutely no idea how sharing baths is as erotic as going for a walk in the park for Japanese people lol

PS: the hand touching scene was done without previous quality assurance due to time restraints - the script only mentioned touching his arm.

If anything, Shinji comes off to me as someone who’s pretty comfortable with his sexuality. He knows he likes boobies, and at no point is he shown questioning or angsting over his feelings for Kaworu. I can’t help but feel the interpretation that Shinji is struggling with his sexuality is nothing but projection with no textual evidence, because Shinji really doesn’t seem to worry or care much about the fact that his interactions with Kaworu could possibly be interpreted as gay, and if he generally seems to be taking it in stride, then he is by definition not “struggling with” or “questioning” his sexuality, based on what is shown on screen.

Overall I think I’m pretty satisfied putting Shinji’s sexual preference down as “women and also Kaworu”.

I never felt any particular gay vibes from him so I wouldn't even say he could be romantically or sexually interested on him, it's more of a case of much needed affection that he was desperate for - but in any case, from now on I'm gonna consider myself straight and Marisexual. Sorry, Asuka.