MariShin discussion general

[Konja7]

Here we have someone who has absolutely no idea how sharing baths is as erotic as going for a walk in the park for Japanese people lol

To be fair, although sharing baths is extremely common in Japan, it's still a big source of fanservice in anime (we have an example in Episode 10).

[pwhodges]

Not to mention Gunbuster!

[Axx°N N.]

PS: the hand touching scene was done without previous quality assurance due to time restraints - the script only mentioned touching his arm.

The script (finalized by Anno) said hand.

H: Why hand-holding though?
M: Because thats what the script said.
H: (flips to the relevant page of the script) it says “touched his hand”. Isn’t it touched, but you drew “hold” (laughs).
M: Because thats what the artist drew and I wasn’t really too concerned and ok-ed it. (laughs) there was basically no time.
NGE Storyboards Collection, Vol.3-4

If anything, Shinji comes off to me as someone who’s pretty comfortable with his sexuality. He knows he likes boobies, and at no point is he shown questioning or angsting over his feelings for Kaworu. I can’t help but feel the interpretation that Shinji is struggling with his sexuality is nothing but projection with no textual evidence, because Shinji really doesn’t seem to worry or care much about the fact that his interactions with Kaworu could possibly be interpreted as gay, and if he generally seems to be taking it in stride, then he is by definition not “struggling with” or “questioning” his sexuality, based on what is shown on screen.

If Shinji blushing at Kaworu naked doesn't indicate attraction, what about Shinji's reactions to boobies indicates attraction?

It's not that Shinji questions or is conflicted about his reactions to Kaworu, it's kind of the opposite. By this point in the show, all of his relationships with female characters are strained. Compare how in EoE when GNR morphs into Giant Naked Kaworu, Shinji immediately breaks down into a defenseless state as if Kaworu is an emotional refuge. The confusion and frustration is actually aimed at everyone but Kaworu--contrast to, again in EoE, Asuka's nightmarish rage-face in Instrumentality. All of Shinji's sexual expressions toward women are filled with hostility, hesitation or shame. It's interesting to note, for instance, that the first interaction Shinji has with Asuka after the whole Kaworu affair is the coma masturbation, and it's something that obviously makes him feel lower than dirt and can only be described as sexually frustrated and desperate. What confusion and angst Kaworu introduces is to highlight how ungraceful Shinji's relationships are with everyone else who remains alive. If there's nothing sexual there, there at least has to be some level of lament over the fact that none of the women treated him that way, which I can only imagine would be confusing or disarming for someone who's 100% heterosexual.

I should mention that many bisexual people don't like the idea to be categorized as homosexual because they are in a gay relationship (or heterosexual because they are in a straight relationship).

Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that that's acceptable--it's just that it does, anyway, happen a lot.

[T. K. Simon]

If Shinji blushing at Kaworu naked doesn't indicate attraction, what about Shinji's reactions to boobies indicates attraction?

Well, Shinji in the bathroom scene blushed due to Kaworu's "loving" words, added to his physical closeness at the time.

Shinji blushes could be interpreted as
1- know that someone knows him, and treats him in a very kind way, something that Shinji wanted at that moment (in the first meeting of him)
2- When they are in the elevator, it is difficult to catalog .... Uncomfortable? Does he blush because of his kindness?, For its beauty? ... I don't know
3-the bathroom scene ^
4- While they sleep, I don't know whether to classify it as a blush, or an expression of disbelief at their words

I don't doubt that Shinji was attracted to kaworu at that moment, it was like an "escape" from his bad situation.

But it seems to me that the attraction that Shinji had for kaworu was not almost anything sexual, but that he was attracted to him, he was a perfect and kind being who offered him love

Shinji is scared with GNR because he is afraid of Rei after knowing the origins of him, imagine having him as a giant being.

His joy at seeing kaworu could mean that he is happy that someone he killed is alive, or that one of the people he loves (either way ) is alive.

He was left ambiguous on purpose, is what anno wanted to do

[EzioAuditore1456]

Well, Shinji in the bathroom scene blushed due to Kaworu's "loving" words, added to his physical closeness at the time.

Shinji blushes could be interpreted as
1- know that someone knows him, and treats him in a very kind way, something that Shinji wanted at that moment (in the first meeting of him)
2- When they are in the elevator, it is difficult to catalog .... Uncomfortable? Does he blush because of his kindness?, For its beauty? ... I don't know
3-the bathroom scene ^
4- While they sleep, I don't know whether to classify it as a blush, or an expression of disbelief at their words

I don't doubt that Shinji was attracted to kaworu at that moment, it was like an "escape" from his bad situation.

But it seems to me that the attraction that Shinji had for kaworu was not almost anything sexual, but that he was attracted to him, he was a perfect and kind being who offered him love

Shinji is scared with GNR because he is afraid of Rei after knowing the origins of him, imagine having him as a giant being.

His joy at seeing kaworu could mean that he is happy that someone he killed is alive, or that one of the people he loves (either way ) is alive.

He was left ambiguous on purpose, is what anno wanted to do

Pretty much this. Shinji was lonely and horny, Kaworu was convenient at that moment in a lot of ways. Besides, blushing can mean more than romantic or sexual feelings, like drunkness.

Although I think it's rather funny y'all really talking exclusively about him while I expected at least a little more about Mari's yuri vibes or connotations, even while I don't personally believe there are any - as her VA said, she just likes people - so I guess I just really think she'd be a cute pairing with Asuka because I really love the chemistry between them. I wish I could see more of their interactions - in fact, more of Mari's interactions as a whole, she could really have some character development in 2.5. Actually, I love Asuka and I love Mari, so I can't see why I wouldn't like the both of them interacting more, even if sexually or romantically - not canonically though, that'd be weird af

[Zusuchan]

Kaworu is an angel disguised in human form so a humans gender and sexuality mean absolutely nothing to him! He loves Shinji for his humanity he offers him his understanding, that manifests as love or just friendship either way it’s the same feeling.

That's not necessarily false, but the way their interactions were presented within the episode are obviously homoerotic. The point isn't does Kaworu romantically love Shinji or Shinji romantically love Kaworu, or even as another user pointed out, whether sharing baths is a commonplace occurrence in Japan, the point is does the episode give homoerotic (which doesn't mean blatantly homosexual) (under)tones to Kaworu and Shinji's relationship, which it indisputably does. Even details like Kaworu not having been meant to hold Shinji's hand mean little considering other elements of the episode and the fact he was still meant to touch it.

[Konja7]

That's not necessarily false, but the way their interactions were presented within the episode are obviously homoerotic. The point isn't does Kaworu romantically love Shinji or Shinji romantically love Kaworu, or even as another user pointed out, whether sharing baths is a commonplace occurrence in Japan, the point is does the episode give homoerotic (which doesn't mean blatantly homosexual) (under)tones to Kaworu and Shinji's relationship, which it indisputably does. Even details like Kaworu not having been meant to hold Shinji's hand mean little considering other elements of the episode and the fact he was still meant to touch it.

This is definitely true. Episode 24 has these homoerotic understones.

The ambiguous impression conveyed by the interactions between Kaworu and Shinji is definitely intentional from the staff.

[Axx°N N.]

He was left ambiguous on purpose, is what anno wanted to do

I absolutely think this is what it boils down to. But my point was just that, while the rest of your post is well thought out and are valid reads, the same "yes, but no" analysis can be done to situations where Shinji blushes at women. If a straight Shinji isn't gay at a naked Kaworu because of a blush, a gay Shinji isn't straight at a naked Rei (per episode 5) because of a blush; seeing a naked person can make anyone nervous, and the textual evidence for Shinji's sexuality in each case is the same visual expression.

But it just seems odd to me that the refrain in this thread of "it's meant to be ambiguous" is being used (not by you, to be clear) to diminish a homoerotic or gay interpretation. If the series is meant to be a puzzle box that's meant to have many different kinds of people relate (which has been said by Anno before, and as recent as the interviews mentioned here, one of which is him speaking to Utada, a non-binary person), than that seems against the intention. If Kaworu & Shinji was meant to be ambiguous, the effect was to invite multiple readings, and so to use the ambiguity to single out one reading as wrong seems oxymoronic.

Similarly, if Mari & Shinji was meant to be ambiguous (which, by the existence of this thread, suggests that it is), a coupling read is as valid as a non-coupling one.

[Konja7]

I absolutely think this is what it boils down to. But my point was just that, while the rest of your post is well thought out and are valid reads, the same "yes, but no" analysis can be done to situations where Shinji blushes at women. If a straight Shinji isn't gay at a naked Kaworu because of a blush, a gay Shinji isn't straight at a naked Rei (per episode 5) because of a blush; seeing a naked person can make anyone nervous, and the textual evidence for Shinji's sexuality in each case is the same visual expression.

IIRC, Shinji doesn't blush, because Kaworu is naked. He blushes, because Kaworu said he liked Shinji.

At the end, it would be pretty difficult to apply the same ambiguity to the attraction of Shinji towards girls, since there are a lot of scene where Shinji shows to be physically attracted to girls (he saw Rei in the pool, he wanted to kiss Asuka, between others).


Curiously, in NTE, it would be easier to apply this ambiguity, since Shinji doesn't show a so obvious sexual attraction to the girls (it is totally absent from his relationship with Misato and Rei).

That said, in 3.0+1.0, we have the confirmation that he likes girls.

[T. K. Simon]

Ax, I am not saying that your reading is wrong, I mean that there is not enough evidence to prove that one house is true or not, we are debating, I am not trying to discredit anything, I am giving my opinion

It is true that there are homoerotic overtones in e24, but they can interpret the Shinji blushes in the scenes in different ways.

Especially in the bathroom scene, in which it can be embarrassing for a boy (who has been very kind to him and has been helpful)
he touches his hand in the shower, beyond that it is common in Japan for boys to bathe together in Japan. Or something else.

There is a lot of ambiguity to theorize

[Axx°N N.]

IIRC, Shinji doesn't blush, because Kaworu is naked. He blushes, because Kaworu said he liked Shinji.

Nope. The two times Shinji blushes in 24, one is just from the way Kaworu is looking at him in bed, preceding a line. Then in the bath scene, Shinji blushes as soon as Kaworu stands up. The "like" line is afterward, at the very tail-end of many reaction shots of Shinji blushing to preceding lines.

I'm sure you can do "that doesn't mean Shinji is straight" reads to scenes where he reacts nervously to a girl, which doesn't outright imply attraction. I'm not saying those would be more valid, I'm saying the method would be the same.

That said, in 3.0+1.0, we have the confirmation that he likes girls.

Do you mean his confession to Asuka that he liked her? But, using the logic of this thread, doesn't that just indicate that Shinji is Asuka-sexual?

I am not saying that your reading is wrong, I mean that there is not enough evidence to prove that one house is true or not...

That's why I emphasized that you weren't diminishing anything; I agree with your points.

But for the sake of consistency, what I'm trying to get at is that while there's ambiguity in the Kaworu interactions, there's also ambiguity in interactions in general. But when they're with women, no attempt is made to rationalize them as non-sexual, when they very well easily could be using the same arguments.

[T. K. Simon]

But for the sake of consistency, what I'm trying to get at is that while there's ambiguity in the Kaworu interactions, there's also ambiguity in interactions in general. But when they're with women, no attempt is made to rationalize them as non-sexual, when they very well easily could be using the same arguments.

The problem is that the Shinji mentality in the chapters of the action arc is very different from that of the e24.

In episodes 1 to 15, Shinji has come out of his shell, he began to create bonds with people, his trust has been growing little by little.

But in e24 he has lost all that, and that makes him hurt more and he has not talked to anyone, he is isolated.

He feels discomfort that someone (kaworu) notices him and tries to talk (and mentally Shinji says that nobody loves him and he is alone) in addition to the extreme kindness of kaworu, it makes him feel good.

Shinji's relationship with the 3 women is somewhat ambiguous, I interpret them as follows

The case of Rei, due to the oedipus complex, in addition to reminding Yui (the person she loves the most) are important, there is also a sexual attraction at the beginning, but it disappears completely as the series progresses

With Misato it could be that he began to consider her as a mother as the series progresses, but at first he thinks that she as someone messy and outgoing, in addition to not feeling as much sexual tension as with the redhead.

With Asuka there is a very evident sexual tension in Shinji, beyond that I come to admire her (and "loved") as the story progresses, it is clear that Asuka steals her "sexual atention" from the other 2 women.

With kaworu, it must be taken into account that she appeared in a situation of total isolation from Shinji (in addition to feeling like the most lonely and most deporable person of all)

Although as it is said, it is only my opinion

* when I refer to kaworu-sexual (hahaha), I mean that Shinji at that time had an "attraction" for him.

Shinji in the whole series seems to have sexual attraction only for women, not for boys, being kaworu (in e24) the only one to whom he was "attracted" (it is up to you to interpret it if it was genuine or only by the need to feel loved and be treated kindly)

[baldur]

June is also the source of the draft versions of episode 24 that are even more overtly homoerotic.

If the staff is responsible for canon, doesn't that include the afforementioned scriptwriter? Didn't Anno also defer to him? If so, why is there no mention of the scriptwriter at all in the theory article? And why no mention of the drafts?

Honestly, is it not fair to say that the original drafts of episode 24 are, like, explicitly homosexual? Shinji and Kaworu quite literally share a kiss.

(I implore anyone that hasn't already to read those drafts, by the way.)

(Also, we are very off-topic.)

[Blockio]

thread title has been changed to better reflect any takes on MariShin in general, not just this one theory

[T. K. Simon]

There were 2 drafts.

The first possibly belonged to Evangelion Proposal, where Kaworu was a boy with a cat, and here they swim and kiss in a lake (Here Shinji is very possibly homosexual, since in the drafts it says that the first person who fell in love was Kaworu )

Later several scenes (such as the kiss) were lowered to other episodes (the e15 in particular)

The second draft included a kiss from Kaworu on the bed, which Shinji seems to accept, this is more like the original episode 24.

It is never explained to us how much Hideaki participated in these rewritings is to think

[baldur]

It is never explained to us how much Hideaki participated in these rewritings is to think

IIRC, Satsukawa wrote the first draft on his own, while the second draft was written after discussing with Anno. The version that ended up in the episode was, of course, further edited by Anno.

Interviewer: Did you stop Satsukawa-san when it looked like he was going to go berserk, Director Anno?

Anno: No, nothing like that. Satsukawa-san’s atmosphere remains in the script. Satsukawa-san’s original script had more of that sort of meaning and was more JUNE-like.

[Blockio]

Folks, let's get this whole thing a bit more back on topic

[EzioAuditore1456]

While I wholeheartedly agree that canonically not pairing Shinji with anyone at the end was the best decision, I can't help but wonder if they didn't at least feel tempted to do it, or at least to imply something more concrete with Asuka. One of the original ideas was to have them contact each other via smartphone and I can't help but think what if we saw Shinji sending a lovey dovey message to Asuka in the end. I really liked the ending we got, it leaves us capable of defining pretty much everything, although some people really took a wrong turn when interpreting Mari's presence. While I don't personally mind any of the ships except Ritsuko, fuck that I seriously can't understand people bending absolutely everything in all of the movies to try to justify their - wrong, mind you - interpretation of things, with people claiming the ship that comprises her name didn't sink - when in fact it did, although finding a IJN ship that didn't would be a tricky task lol - and some going as far as claiming that the creator's work is nothing more than just another interpretation just as valid as anyone else's - like, no, seriously. Some people believe whatever Hideaki Anno says is just his interpretation of things and people can simply completely disregard it because the fact he's the series' creator is meaningless. All of that just to try to justify Shinji pulling a Kaji and hooking up with a girl with watermelons.

PS: imagine creating a masterpiece of a franchise, nurturing it for nearly 3 decades, selling billions worth of merchandise and working on having the series expanded to new creators just to have people tell you that what you say about your own creation is meaningless simply because they refuse to accept the way you envisioned things to be

[Konja7]

Some people believe whatever Hideaki Anno says is just his interpretation of things and people can simply completely disregard it because the fact he's the series' creator is meaningless. All of that just to try to justify Shinji pulling a Kaji and hooking up with a girl with watermelons.

When did Anno said that the interpretation of Shinji and Mari as a couple is wrong?

I mean, we see Shinji and Mari flirting in the Epilogue. I doubt the creators wouldn't expect that interpretation.

One of the original ideas was to have them contact each other via smartphone and I can't help but think what if we saw Shinji sending a lovey dovey message to Asuka in the end.

I would need to know the source for that original idea too. I've never read that idea from the interviews to staff or VA's.

[Axx°N N.]

I doubt the creators wouldn't expect that interpretation.

Agreed.

Ambiguity retained doesn't mean all interpretations are wrong. It means it's expecting (and encouraging) many interpretations.