One More Final: I Need You; a parable of human interaction.

[ElMariachi]

^

The same otaku thinking Anno despised. So she was left apart from ep.8.

Nope, Anno admitted that the reason why Rei take a step back from episode 6 onward was because he brought her character development to its end too early, with her smile just after Ramiel is defeated, and didn't know how to continue from here.
Rebuild managed to continue her character development.


@Chuckman: The problem I think is that neither Shinji nor Asuka where in a state to properly emotionally support the other: Asuka got mind raped, ran away, tried to kill herself and is a mental wreck, and Shinji saw Rei kamikaze herself in front of him, having her replaced by a "copy", learn about the Reiquarium business before seeing them disintegrating due to a crazed Ritsuko, had to kill his best frend with own hands and is also a complete mental wreck.

Both needed emotional support and some comfort urgently, and ended with only each other available, a recipe for pure disaster, and what a disaster it was!

If anything, EoE is a little heavy handed. If she really saw inside his head she'd see all the good he did, all the times he wanted to go to bat for her but couldn't because someone stopped him. Even in the hospital scene, before his breakdown, he was exhorting her to be herself, to snap out of it. He wanted her to get better. He wanted her for her, but she didn't see it that way. There's a little bit of cheating there at the end and Anno takes the most immediately, superficially depressing route he can with their final interaction.

I think that Asuka saw it during Instrumentality, and that's the reason why she forgave him in the last scene, but during pre-I and Instrumentality proper she was too pissed off for what happened to her to take that into account, she wanted to vent-off her rage and feeling of impotence, and there wasn't any glass wall to punch.

[SEELE]

Both needed emotional support and some urgently, and ended with only each other available, a recipe for pure disaster, and what a disaster it was!

Thank you El, man! Thank you for making a point to this discussion. no homo - true story

[Jäeger]

^

Nope, Anno admitted that the reason why Rei take a step back from episode 6 onward was because he brought her character development to its end too early, with her smile just after Ramiel is defeated, and didn't know how to continue from here.
Rebuild managed to continue her character development.

You're right. What I said applies better to the movie.

@Chuckman: The problem I think is that neither Shinji nor Asuka where in a state to properly emotionally support the other: Asuka got mind raped, ran away, tried to kill herself and is a mental wreck, and Shinji saw Rei kamikaze herself in front of him, having her replaced by a "copy", learn about the Reiquarium business before seeing them disintegrating due to a crazed Ritsuko, having to kill his best frend with own hands and is also a complete mental wreck.

Both needed emotional support and some urgently, and ended with only each other available, a recipe for pure disaster, and what a disaster it was!



I think that Asuka saw it during Instrumentality, and that's the reason why she forgave him in the last scene, but during pre-I and Instrumentality proper she was too pissed off for what happened to her to take that into account, she wanted to vent-off her rage and feeling of impotence, and there wasn't any glass wall to punch.

I agree, it's the "Because I'm the same as you??" again. But denying that they like each other or even their relationship is blatant lie. Only a future we'll never see will be the witness of their relationship development. But it's what makes Evangelion special. if I wanted a happy ending with a kiss there are better choices outside.

[Mr. Tines]

You like Rei better than Asuka? It's fine.

Depends what you mean by "like"; but in the context of who I'd say was the girl best suited for Shinji, I would look here first.

"Last request"??

The last line before the live action sequence:

Asuka (voice):
But, if I have to be with you, I'd rather die!

If A then B, and now given A...

[Jäeger]

Depends what you mean by "like"; but in the context of who I'd say was the girl best suited for Shinji, I would look here first.

The last line before the live action sequence:

If A then B, and now given A...

"If you are not all mine, I dont want anything from you". Ahhh FYI everybody says horrible things to Shinji before that live action sequence.

We could be arguing about this all day, but it's doesn't solve the problem : you prefer Rei (it's ok) but you don't accept the fact that in EoE she is out of the ecuation and the movie only pays attention to the relationship between Shinji and Asuka. The movie begins and ends with both of them together, most humanity has accepted that fact. There is plenty of room for interpretation, but not for speculation. You even refuse to accept the DC, being the default cut nowdays, so this discussion is pointless. An advice : in Love Hina I liked Motoko the most, but I would never deny how things ended.

Well, when you have read as an argument (not yours) against Shinji's interest in the redhead that he only shows interest in her from ep 9....when her first appeareance was ep8 Faith in humanity lost. It's like triying to convince somebody that in "2001" Frank Poole's death was suicide and not a murder and analyze everyframe to prove something that is not true.


Well, changue of topic, Why most people end talking about "I need you" or the kitchen scene....and not the sex scene/kiss echo/train scene? For me is a very important moment, because for first time he says her that is impossible to know what she wants if she doesn't say anything to him, or her being as selfish to demand absolute dedication. It links the incoming kitchen sequence very clearly.

[Bagheera]

We could be arguing about this all day, but it's doesn't solve the problem : you prefer Rei (it's ok) but you don't accept the fact that in EoE she is out of the ecuation and the movie only pays attention to the relationship between Shinji and Asuka.

The word you're looking for there is "equation". Apart from that, your viewpoint here is far too simplistic for words. I ship these two hard, but you're ignoring an awful lot of what we've been shown in both the series and the movie. It's not just about Shinji and Asuka.

[Mr. Tines]

you prefer Rei

I don't ship S/R; I anti-ship S/A. If I were going to do pairings it would be Shinji/one of his ep3 fan-girls.

The movie begins and ends with both of them together

The movie opens with Shinji washing his head in failed suicide #2 (and by no means last).

Well, change of topic, Why most people end talking about "I need you" or the kitchen scene....and not the sex scene/kiss echo/train scene?

The kitchen scene is where it, uh, all comes tumbling down; and "on the beach" is no unambiguous resolution.

[Jäeger]

The word you're looking for there is "equation". Apart from that, your viewpoint here is far too simplistic for words. I ship these two hard, but you're ignoring an awful lot of what we've been shown in both the series and the movie. It's not just about Shinji and Asuka.

Thanks ;)

Ahhh of course isn't. For me, the only "true" love story of the series is the one between Gendo and Yui. And the more interesting by far.

The kitchen scene is where it, uh, all comes tumbling down; and "on the beach" is no unambiguous resolution.

And the previous scene is the context.

Of course is not ambiguous : if she didn't want to be there, she had plenty of choices and chances. But If you want to keep denying what is shown, it's your point of view. But I've said before arguing about this is pointless, you don't even accept DC.

[Bagheera]

Thanks ;)

Ahhh of course isn't. For me, the only true love story of the series is the one between Gendo and Yui. And the more interesting by far.

Yui doesn't seem to have been all that into him. Misato/Kaji is a much better fit for "true love", and far less destructive besides.

[Jäeger]

Yui doesn't seem to have been all that into him. Misato/Kaji is a much better fit for "true love", and far less destructive besides.

And even being true love is a fucked relationship, as well.

Well, could we say that Gendo's love is true love??? ;)

I didn't want to sound like a s/a hysterical fangirl, because I'm not. I only wanted to point that their relationship is the key of many of the events (not all) of the movie, from the beginning to the end, being "i need you" one of the best examples. It's a fucked relationship,yeah, but it was what Anno chose for Shinji and Asuka. I never expected an Harem Comedy ending. He left alone in the planet two people that like and hurt each other, after a message of hope. Time will be the only witness of their relationship development.

As I said before, I agree with the official trading cards explanation. For me, it seems pretty accurate and hell yeah, It's way more official than any other crazy theory explained in a forum , which is not the Delphos Oracle.

[Bagheera]

Well, could we say that Gendo's love is true love??? ;)

No, it's obsession. If he really loved her he wouldn't have been fucking the Akagis.

[Jäeger]

No, it's obsession. If he really loved her he wouldn't have been fucking the Akagis.

Well, love which turned into obsession seem more precise to me. It fits a pathetic man like him.

[Orkki]

No, it's obsession. If he really loved her he wouldn't have been fucking the Akagis.

I agree that it was more like obsession than "true love" but not necessarily because of the Akagis. The Akagi incident/s could be construed as a means to an end, which was his plan to reconnect with Yui. The ultimate answer is quite obviously left to the viewer's discretion (e.g. the inaudible line from Gendo to Ritsuko right before he shot her). Nonetheless it was part of a selfish goal (explanation below).

Well, could we say that Gendo's love is true love???

Well, the whole reconnection project to begin with was quite likely against Yui's "bright future for mankind"-agenda and, in general, in spite of things Yui cared for except Gendo himself.

Gendo was afraid of the "invisible bonds between people" i.e. relationships. He probably couldn't bear being vulnerable with people, and a woman like Yui was "self-sacrificial" (this might be dysfunction from her part also) enough to get to know him personally without having much input/initiation from Gendo for herself.

There's a lot of dualism going on in NGE, and I think Gendo represented a "selfish" archetype in contrast to Yui's selflessness. Albeit it's more than "selfishness": Yui was the only person Gendo didn't fear being hurt by and who could see the scared, vulnerable but "quite sweet" side of Gendo. I think the whole Gendo arc was part of the general motif of being willing to get vulnerable for love/happiness. Instead of confronting his fears and opening his heart to people, Gendo just stubbornly tried to regain Yui, much to his ultimate downfall.

[Sorrow]

No, it's obsession. If he really loved her he wouldn't have been fucking the Akagis.

Sex does not equate to love. The notion itself is absurd.


If throwing the world into ruin, causing all people to potentially never be the same again or even be people again, with the sole purpose of being re-united with one single person... well... if that's not love...

[Bagheera]

Sex does not equate to love. The notion itself is absurd.

The notion that I implied otherwise is likewise absurd. You can't claim to love someone with a straight face if you've been betraying their trust for years on end.

All assuming Yui and Gendo didn't have an open relationship, of course.

If throwing the world into ruin, causing all people to potentially never be the same again or even be people again, with the sole purpose of being reunited with one single person... well... if that's not love...

. . . it's obsession.

If Gendo really loved Yui he'd be considering her wishes rather than wrecking the world to satisfy his own. But he didn't, and Yui knew it, which is why Gendo got chomped in EoE.

[Sorrow]

The notion that I implied otherwise is likewise absurd. You can't claim to love someone with a straight face if you've been betraying their trust for years on end.

Of course you can. Loving someone else doesn't mean sabotaging yourself in the process. That's a blind, un-realistic interpretation from ideal works of fiction. If you had killed 8 people, genuinely loving someone wouldn't compel you to share that information. That would be pure idiocy, really.

Just because he loved Yui doesn't mean in her absence he can't use sex to get her back. Sex and love are dis-connected from one another.

. . . it's obsession.

If Gendo really loved Yui he'd be considering her wishes rather than wrecking the world to satisfy his own. But he didn't, and Yui knew it, which is why Gendo got chomped in EoE.

Sure, it was selfish, but if you consider one person to be worth more than all the other billions; that person means an awful lot to you. It's almost love to the absolute extreme. He had already "tasted" Yui, the fact he still needed her in his life says an awful lot.

Obsession could work, though as an extreme form of his love and admiration for her. If there was no real love, then surely her presence wouldn't mean much at all and an image or recording could suffice? We already know Gendo can turn himself off to things quite easily, but her in his life made it bearable. He dis-carded all memorabilia of her simply because it doesn't fill the hole that she, herself, the real and true Yui, could. Not even a clone of her would do. If we know anything about sick obsession from fiction, a doll or replacement is often a prized possession. Rei herself felt like a means to an end, not a treasured prize.

If he had no possibility of having her returned he'd absolutely have probably killed himself. Was Romeo simply obsessed with Juliet? He couldn't live in a world without her as a symbol for the purest and highest love.

[Bagheera]

Just because he loved Yui doesn't mean in her absence he can't use sex to get her back. Sex and love are dis-connected from one another.

I get that you might feel that way, but for an awful lot of people -- anyone who's monogamous, really -- it just doesn't work like that.

If he had no possibility of having her returned he'd absolutely have probably killed himself. Was Romeo simply obsessed with Juliet? He couldn't live in a world without her as a symbol for the purest and highest love.

Again, if he loved her he should have considered her wishes. How would she feel about him wrecking the world? About his doing grievous harm to Shinji? Of his ignoring her obvious wished re: the HIP? But he didn't consider any of this. He was just obsessed with getting her back at any cost.

[Sorrow]

I get that you might feel that way, but for an awful lot of people -- anyone who's monogamous, really -- it just doesn't work like that.

It's not how I feel, it's an objective opinion. Monogamy is a social construct. It intends to prevent further competition among mates and create a degree of security. Sex is entirely and utterly meaningless on it's own. Sex with the one you love seems to have a different, enhanced, feeling - making it better because you also love them; but sometimes, the person you love and enjoy spending your time with, just doesn't fit with your sexual needs or, perhaps, even your sexuality.

I don't see sleeping with someone else to imply a dis-honest love or joy for someone else.

Again, if he loved her he should have considered her wishes. How would she feel about him wrecking the world? About his doing grievous harm to Shinji? Of his ignoring her obvious wished re: the HIP? But he didn't consider any of this. He was just obsessed with getting her back at any cost.

Love is blind? He didn't (or didn't want to) see it. He was too focused on having her back to see the bigger picture. She never explained it to him anyway, she just went ahead with it and expected everything to fall into place.

[pwhodges]

Isometimes, the person you love and enjoy spending your time with, just doesn't fit with your sexual needs or, perhaps, even your sexuality.

I don't see sleeping with someone else to imply a dis-honest love or joy for someone else.

However, your view conflicts with much social pressure; and one needs to consider the extent to which that might have arisen essentially evolutionarily as the most effective way for the process of procreation and upbringing to be carried on effectively. Note that I am not saying that society can't have got it wrong, or have failed to update its behaviour as circumstances change; but in this case I would suggest that your view is not often appropriate.

[Sorrow]

However, your view conflicts with much social pressure; and one needs to consider the extent to which that might have arisen essentially evolutionarily as the most effective way for the process of procreation and upbringing to be carried on effectively. Note that I am not saying that society can't have got it wrong, or have failed to update its behaviour as circumstances change; but in this case I would suggest that your view is not often appropriate.

I don't mean to say it's un-necessary or "wrong". I think it has many benefits, and therefore it continues to exist. However, it is not necessary to feelings of love as they are not the reasons for monogamy existing. Love just seems to be used as a way to defend monogamy and it's practicality.

If I were to love a female with all my heart, there is nothing stopping me from being attracted to a male at the same time, with no feelings of love at all. In reality, they're not stuck to each other.

It seems to be a moot point here regardless. Many people move on to find other partners when they have lost one, through death or even simply separation, and no one accuses them of having "not really loved them". Gendo loves Yui, he sleeps with the others. He even sleeps with them to further his plans of being re-united with Yui. One is love, the other is sex. Deceptive sex at that.