Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:04 am

Let people have fun, Bloc-kun-io.

orcot
Adam
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby orcot » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:21 pm

Oh blockio I'm neither ignoring you nor talking directly to you in general.

I do wonder what you hope to achieve by this.
Personaly I think you take some of these pairings to seriously.
Eva/anime in general seems to have a problem with given the male lead a harem. It is in general good to think outside the box and try
pairings with people who are not/less emotionally scarred.

Sight, Lord knows I will miss little out if I would put you on my foe list.
My advice, try and be better then that, read what you write and wonder does this have content

orcot
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby orcot » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:20 pm

Gendo and ritsoku, like I wonder how that relationship worked.
My first idea would be that it's more a friend with benefits relation, but Ritsuko seemed to hurt and jealous abouth Rei. Yet never tried to be a foster parent for Rei in anyway or form. Rei calls her doctor akagi even tough she could say the women who cares for me (would be true in the medical sence).

In the manga she claims to be the person that makes sure she (Rei II) has a healty body then she snaps like why did she strangle Rei II? to hurt Gendo? Why did she stop)? Also if your emotionally distressed and looking for answers Rei responses could be interpreted as You can let other people (then Gendo) in your heart. (Not what she said but close enough if that is what you want/need to hear) a negative interpretation would be that she's yust as much a doll to the commander as she is.(volume 8 stage 56 jealousy).

Meanwhile Gendo seemed to be a monogamist. Being first with Yui then Naoko and then Ritsuki afther each death.

It seems like one of those couples that does not live together, Ritsuku gives the impression that her life is going nowhere especialy afther her cat dies, but her decision to blow up the spare Rei's is yust weird. She clearly want's more attention but she is very destructive in her ways and knows this. Gendo does punish her for that and the relation is pretty much over at this point.

But then still she want's to die together with Gendo in a murder suicide situation blowing up central dogma. Like what is up with that woman. Why spend that much time and energy in something that looked so casual. She could have yust quit her job and go back to her grandma (she is alive in the manga).

Seeing a alternative ending with a "will they miss me when i'm gone" followed by a YOLO I quit would be fun. With Giving Shinji the details abouth Rei origin.

Zusuchan
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:30 am

orcot:
Ritsuko wants/needs emotional connections, but no-one gives them to her. Judging from Naoko's comments in 21, she probably wasn't a very good mother and neglected her in favor of work. Gendo is someone who gives her that connection and actual romance on top, but it's obvious he doesn't care as much about her as Rei and ultimately even Shinji, which is the reason why she feels so jealous towards Rei especially as she even gets showings of love from Gendo. And as the series progresses, her mental state gets more and more worse-Kaji dies, Misato becomes distant and hateful, Gendo reveals his true colors more and more and so she ultimately reaches a breaking point leading her to kill all those disposable, endlessly replaceable Rei spares and shows it to even Shinji to further corrode his trust in his father and also break him (having correctly guessed that Gendo does actually care for Shinji, he's just afraid to show it). The idea that Ritsuko wants more of Gendo's attention is an interesting interpretation and possibly true, but it's by no means the most important factor that went into her decision.
Yet never tried to be a foster parent for Rei in anyway or form. Rei calls her doctor akagi even tough she could say the women who cares for me (would be true in the medical sence).

The jealousy/envy she feels towards Rei is probably too strong for that and it's not like Rei is exactly easy to communicate with.

Rei calls everyone formally, even Gendo and Shinji, the two people she's the closest to. There's no reason for her to refer to Ritsuko with anything else than her proper designation.
In the manga she claims to be the person that makes sure she (Rei II) has a healty body then she snaps like why did she strangle Rei II? to hurt Gendo? Why did she stop)?

The manga is something entirely different and famous for simplifying characters-Ritsuko is just another victim of that. Though her almost strangling Rei does make some sense considering her mental state at that point. And the reason she snapped and strangled is because of her mental deterioration, jealousy/envy towards Rei and complicated feelings towards Gendo. She stopped because Rei is still human (I believe she was telling the truth when referring to the clones in the basement as simple spares without any actual personality) and because she realized that she was doing the exact same horrible thing that her mother did. Also, please stop looking at things from the viewpoint of materialistic logic-saying that Ritsuko attempting to strangle Rei is strange because she's her doctor is basically inability to account for the complexity of human psychology.

Also, aren't we supposed to be talking about the TV series here? The manga is basically useless in these kinds of discussions.
Meanwhile Gendo seemed to be a monogamist.

I have no idea what logic you used to deduce that Gendo is a monogamist. People have relationships with other people after the deaths of their previous romantic partners all the time-none of this can be used to deduce that Gendo is a monogamist, especially since there's literally nothing that actually points to this possibility.
But then still she want's to die together with Gendo in a murder suicide situation blowing up central dogma.

Because she doesn't see in any point in living anymore but yet also hates Gendo, so wants to kill him and any chance of his plans succeeding. And the fact that when Casper refuses her commands, she doesn't even attempt to kill Gendo is a big indicator of her psyche-this final betrayal by what could be argued to be a representation of her mother is the thing that leads her to silent, painful acceptance of not just her impending death, but also the generally horrible state of her life. She is actually fucking broken at this point.
Why spend that much time and energy in something that looked so casual.

Because it wasn't casual to her. It was literally one of the most important human connections of her life and its ultimate destruction was the thing that finally threw her over the edge.

orcot
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby orcot » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:53 pm

Maya should have risked it.I like the quote from green book

the world is full of lonely people afraid to make the first move

should have been fun if someone said that to Maya it sounds a bit I'm 14 and this is deep but it kindof get's sad in the last episodes. Would not have changed the final outcome tough.

I have no idea what logic you used to deduce that Gendo is a monogamist. People have relationships with other people after the deaths of their previous romantic partners all the time-none of this can be used to deduce that Gendo is a monogamist, especially since there's literally nothing that actually points to this possibility.

It's difficult to see Gendo going casual. We don't really ever see him do that in the anime. Not even with Rei. But we even see fuyutsuki do sudoku or crosswords puzzles when their isn't much to do. To give their relation any meaning it would have been nice to see at least some chemistry

Also, aren't we supposed to be talking about the TV series here? The manga is basically useless in these kinds of discussions.

Yes and no the manga is actually pretty good and sadamoto was partially responsible for fleshing out the characters, it's definitly a story retold and no accurate translation but it doesn't have it's own subthreat, like the movies do for some reason.

Similar the Asuka scene only happens in the movie not in the original ending but can still be mentionend. Doesn't Asuka survive the original ending the attack on the geofront never happend in the TV series

Zusuchan
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Zusuchan » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:38 am

orcot wrote:
it would have been nice to see at least some chemistry

I guess this is just a difference in what we expected. Ritsuko is a supporting character and there's nothing about her or Gendo that would allow us to easily see some kind of chemistry-if they actually had something that could qualify as some. And Gendo not being casual is kind of one of his defining characteristics.
Yes and no the manga is actually pretty good and sadamoto was partially responsible for fleshing out the characters,

I'm not saying the manga isn't good (I have many problems with it and I do consider it a subpar adaptation with a lot of strange choices, but it's also unquestionably the best non-Anno Evangelion work and has some cool character moments), I'm just saying that as a different continuity and story, it can't really be used to discuss NGE/EoE. We wouldn't use Shikinami to discuss Soryu because we recognize they are similar, but different characters and it's exactly the same thing with characters from the manga. I also disagree with the fleshing out-Sadamoto may have done that more than Anno, but by doing so, he also strangely enough made a lot of characters far less multi-dimensional and robbed them of some psychological complexity.
Similar the Asuka scene only happens in the movie not in the original ending but can still be mentionend. Doesn't Asuka survive the original ending the attack on the geofront never happend in the TV series

EoE is of the same continuity as NGE. It's never been officially confirmed, of course, but that's pretty much what it is-it's a parallel ending to 25/26. It's like EoTV and EoE are the same story told from different viewpoints at different points of time.

orcot
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby orcot » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:37 am

I guess this is just a difference in what we expected. Ritsuko is a supporting character and there's nothing about her or Gendo that would allow us to easily see some kind of chemistry-if they actually had something that could qualify as some. And Gendo not being casual is kind of one of his defining characteristics.

That's a failure on the writers Gendo's relationships are very inportant in the story be it with Shinji, Rei or Ritsuko, theirs many broothing characters that are terrible with women and would be the villain in their pof view for example dream of the sandman.
I'm just saying that as a different continuity and story, it can't really be used to discuss NGE/EoE

Does Rei even betray Gendo in the original ending? Ritsuko doesn't die she is yust shot dead, the ending seems pretty different and people mostly remember the alternative universe scene(where Shinji and Asuka know each other and Rei is the new student). I don't think the 2 endings (NGE/EoE) are compatible but that is okay.

I also disagree with the fleshing out-Sadamoto may have done that more than Anno, but by doing so, he also strangely enough made a lot of characters far less multi-dimensional and robbed them of some psychological complexity.

it's different for sure a little bid more backbone for Shinji is a good thing I think, Rei is more sociable true but she is even more so in the movies from what I've read. I also read it doesn't amount to anything. Rei being more sociable in the manga helps explaining explain her betrayal of Gendo.
I liked the concept of the Re-take manga where Shinji see's a imagenairy version of Asuka commenting on the situation (battlestar galactica did it better between baltar and six) Doing this with Rei would have maked the manga darker improved the idea of a scizo Rei and would have worked well on the manga that said thinking of the scene between Rei and armisael it was confusing.

EoTV

EoTV?

Zusuchan
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby Zusuchan » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:20 am

orcot wrote:
That's a failure on the writers Gendo's relationships are very inportant in the story be it with Shinji, Rei or Ritsuko, theirs many broothing characters that are terrible with women and would be the villain in their pof view for example dream of the sandman.

Gendo not being explicitly shown in relationships with anyone other than Yui/Rei until EoE is actually a smart decision and the kind that Anno is wont to do (he loves giving characters moments that invariably recontextualize a lot of their previous actions, i.e. Asuka's mindrape in ep. 22). It means that he is shrouded in mystery and we're never quite sure about him until we get the bombshell that he actually did love Shinji in EoE. It seems to me like you're looking at the traditions of more normal, straight-forward stories, the kind where we would've gotten a lot more into the Gendo/Rei and Gendo/Ritsuko relationships early on, but Anno doesn't want to do that and he has made something that doesn't need it. All of these previous ''recontextualization moments'' show new depths to the characters-and they not only make sense, but there are also various little hints about them hidden in previous episodes. They're not illogical out-of-nowhere decisions that go against what we know of these characters and that have little to no basis elsewhere-and if they were like that, then I would be disappointed too and say that the writers failed, but as of now I wouldn't say they did. It's alright if you like the more clear-cut stories and the absence of this kind of stuff in Eva is obviously a valid statement for being disappointed, but it can't really be put up as an actual failure, I think, because that's never what Anno was interested in and he didn't fail in his own particular brand of storytelling.
Does Rei even betray Gendo in the original ending? Ritsuko doesn't die she is yust shot dead, the ending seems pretty different and people mostly remember the alternative universe scene(where Shinji and Asuka know each other and Rei is the new student). I don't think the 2 endings (NGE/EoE) are compatible but that is okay.

The endings are different, no question, but both EoE and EoTV( the last two episodes of NGE aka. ''End of Television'') complement each other beautifully. EoTV gets us into the mindscapes of the characters a bit more and shows a lot more about what happened in Instrumentality, revealing a lot of hidden truths about the characters that are further elaborated on in EoE and gives us some extra context into Shinji's final denunciation of it in EoE and there's arguments that the final ''congratulations'' is really Shinji being congratulated by the others for his decision to go back to the real world despite the pain it entails (and some other realizations too), which then bookends into Shinji and Yui saying goodbye to each other in EoE, after which we get the ''One More Final'' thing. In ep. 25, one can also see some things that took place in EoE, such as a version of Gendo summoning Rei and the dead bodies of Misato and Ritsuko. The continuities are the same and because of that, there is really no true ''original ending''-yes, that's what 26 technically is, but EoE complements and expands upon it, the same way that EoE is complemented and expanded upon by EoTV, even though it was released earlier.
it's different for sure a little bid more backbone for Shinji is a good thing I think, Rei is more sociable true but she is even more so in the movies from what I've read. I also read it doesn't amount to anything. Rei being more sociable in the manga helps explaining explain her betrayal of Gendo.
I liked the concept of the Re-take manga where Shinji see's a imagenairy version of Asuka commenting on the situation (battlestar galactica did it better between baltar and six) Doing this with Rei would have maked the manga darker improved the idea of a scizo Rei and would have worked well on the manga that said thinking of the scene between Rei and armisael it was confusing.

Shinji having more backbone is good for him as a person, but I'm not sure how good it is as a characterization. It makes his descent even more horrifying, true, but I just can't help but think it's a strange decision. Rei being more sociable in the Rebuilds is part of Anno's extremely meta message (which I am not going to go into here because that would be way too long a discussion), but I don't know how much more sociable she is in the manga. She's a little bit more sociable, yes, but a lot of her interactions with Shinji happened in the original continuity too, we just didn't see them. There's no basis for this and it's all pure headcanon, but the little train moment in ep. 22 is a good show that they were together a lot more than we saw in the show, in my opinion.

And the Re-Take idea would not have been better in terms of exploring Rei's character. It just...wouldn't be. And if you find the Armisael-Rei scene confusing, then just watch it again or read fan interpretations. An imaginary Rei in the way I think you're talking about her would just be bad expositon-which NGE/EoE did do, but never badly and never like that. Rei being mysterious is a big part of her allure and character in NGE/EoE.

orcot
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Re: Best Pair: What Eva Characters Do You Ship?

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Postby orcot » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:19 pm

Gendo not being explicitly shown in relationships with anyone other than Yui/Rei until EoE is actually a smart decision and the kind that Anno is wont to do (he loves giving characters moments that invariably recontextualize a lot of their previous actions, i.e. Asuka's mindrape in ep. 22).

Yes but it made Ritsuko's ending a bid hollow, afther the wedding Kaji carries a drunk Misato home, what if Gendo came to pik up (a drunk) ritsuko and brought her to a apartment. It's a nice normal gesture that show some lvl of care or it gives subtext for those who think Gendo raped ritsuko at one time.
It can be seen in many light but at least it is some lvl of personal interaction.

It means that he is shrouded in mystery and we're never quite sure about him until we get the bombshell that he actually did love Shinji in EoE. It seems to me like you're looking at the traditions of more normal, straight-forward stories, the kind where we would've gotten a lot more into the Gendo/Rei and Gendo/Ritsuko relationships early on

Gendo caring for Rei is outright stated, hey you seem to have happy conversations with my dad, theirs specific scenes dedeicated he litterally has the scars on his hands. You also see it in the background by them yust beeing together and talking to third parties of what is obviously clasified information.

but Anno doesn't want to do that and he has made something that doesn't need it. All of these previous ''recontextualization moments'' show new depths to the characters-and they not only make sense, but there are also various little hints about them hidden in previous episodes.
Are those little hints ritsuko's lipstick? True she didn't had any on in the episodeof the value of miracles (Gendo was out at the south pole, but she did had lipstick in magma diver for example, where Gendo definitly wasn't present.

They're not illogical out-of-nowhere decisions that go against what we know of these characters and that have little to no basis elsewhere-and if they were like that, then I would be disappointed too and say that the writers failed,

It's in the set up I gues, a example I've heard what if in the lord of the ring afther the party split up. The second film followed aragon and ignored frodo and the next time we see frodo is at mount doom, their needs to be more then a conclusion.
And the Re-Take idea would not have been better in terms of exploring Rei's character. It just...wouldn't be.

Their was a idee to make Rei more scizo then she turned out in the series.
I point out that they tried it (with Shinji) in the re-take story, but switched over to the better version of battlestar galactica between Gaius Baltar and caprica six. They also sort of did it in farscape with John chrichton and scorpius for laughs.


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