NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only.

Moderator: Board Staff

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 352
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:58 pm

After reading this thread and the info in the wiki, I guess the FAR even having both Fruits couldn't scape their planet being engulfed by their sun going nova.

Maybe they located the only 7 inhabitable planets in the milky galaxy at the time, that might be the reason they split their population into 7 carriers.

Billions of years ago wasn't Mars inside the inhabitable sweet spot of our solar system? Maybe the FAR sent Adam to Earth and Lilith to Mars, but by the time Lilith arrived, Mars was no longer inhabitable, so she went to the closest inhabitable planet instead, Earth.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22578
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:44 pm

View Original PostK40s wrote:the FAR even having both Fruits

Where does it say that? The fact that the FAR were a technological species seems to indicate that they were much like Lilin. Technological development occurs due to a species being fundamentally limited and requiring resourcefulness to overcome those limitations.

Maybe the FAR sent Adam to Earth and Lilith to Mars

The Classified Information specifies that the Black Moon was intended for a different solar system altogether.
Avatar: "That's right. I'm a gay robot." (David 8 image by Junseo)
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 33
Posts: 3217
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:52 pm

To be fair they could have done so had they wanted to but for some reason decided the idea was forbidden.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Atropos
Tabris
Tabris
Age: 19
Posts: 965
Joined: Jul 04, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Atropos » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:55 pm

Has the idea of 3I being a failsafe in case two Seeds did land on the same planet been proposed yet?

If not, I submit it.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 33
Posts: 3217
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:57 pm

That would be the spears dude. Unfortunately for Adam Lilith's managed to conveniently get lost during the crash.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Atropos
Tabris
Tabris
Age: 19
Posts: 965
Joined: Jul 04, 2011
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Atropos » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:01 pm

And yet Reichu told me in another thread that the spears were meant to fertilize seeds! Wot a curiosity...

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22578
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:18 pm

View Original PostAtropos wrote:And yet Reichu told me in another thread that the spears were meant to fertilize seeds!

The "fertilization device" idea isn't anything canonical; it's just a whimsy of mine that I entertain on the side. The Spears are described in the Classified Information as "security devices", and their main purpose seems to be to keep the powers of the Seeds in check, and enable them to be contained/sealed or even harnessed by another party if need be.

But with the Spears being both phallic and shaped like DNA, I thought it would be interesting if they were the "male" counterparts to the "female" Seeds, and harbored extensive stores of genomic information that could be utilized, through biofusion, by a Seed to create genetically diverse offspring. (Consequently, without a Spear, Lilith was forced to create life the long, hard way.)

Anonymous_EvaFan wrote:To be fair they could have done so had they wanted to but for some reason decided the idea was forbidden.

Done what?
Avatar: "That's right. I'm a gay robot." (David 8 image by Junseo)
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 33
Posts: 3217
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:20 pm

Given themselves bodies with both fruits. They did make the Seeds after all.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 352
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:41 am

Your soul ate too much of the Fruit of Life, and seems to have forgotten about ancient matters...
(...)
Here’s a thought. Why don't you journey with me?
I think "Seed X" is implied to be an Adam-type Seed, He seems quite familiar with "eating of the FoL", and goes on to invite Kaworu to travel (and possibly cohabit a planet) with them, even after Kaworu told him about the strife caused in his planet because of having two different Seeds.
While bringing many peoples together as one... In order to, one day, increase and flourish.
Could this be an implication that confirms that more than 1 Lilin soul are required to make a being similar to an Angel?
Could Angels and the Seeds be amalgamations of more than 1 FAR souls while Lilin are only 1 (or at least an amalgamation of less FAR souls than Angels/Seeds).
Could this be the reason why two Lilin souls (the resident and the pilot) are required to operate (and more specifically to deploy an ATF) an Eva? besides having the resident soul under bondage and using the pilots who are more controllable.
Could the notions of soul-splitting be wrong? Maybe 1 Lilin holds 2 FAR souls, and the case of Kyoko was simply FAR soul separation instead of splitting one soul in two.
Also fits nicely with the
Rebuild  SPOILER: Show
"Failures of Infinity" seeming to be the equivalent of several Lilin merged together
Maybe to make an Angel/Eva life-form at least 2 Lilin (4 FAR souls) are required, while to make a Lilin life-form 2 FAR souls are required.
Maybe Lilith's soul wasn't split but only separated:
* Rei 1 got 2 of Lilith's FAR souls, leaving Lilith with 2,
* Rei 1's 2 FAR souls then went to Eva-00,
* Rei 2 got 1 of the remaining 2 still in Lilith, leaving Lilith with 1,
* Rei 2 and Eva-00's grand total of 3 FAR souls then went to Rei 3 (get it? Rei three, 3 FAR souls, -o-; )
* Finally Rei 3's 3 FAR souls reunited with the 1 inside Lilith during EoE.
All that would explain why:
* Rei 1 seemed more (but not quite) human (as far as Rei goes), she had the correct amount of FAR souls for a Lilin: 2, but still 2 short for an Angel body shaped as a Lilin.
* Rei 2 seemed less human and more detached from reality (than Rei 1), she had only 1 FAR soul in her, while she should have 4, being an Angel body shaped as a Lilin.
* Rei 3 seemed more human and more aware of things and even could use an ATF, she had 3 FAR souls in her, almost the right number for her "condition": 4.
* Maybe Kaworu also had 3 FAR souls, the 4th FAR soul being on the Adam Embryo. It certainly gives new meaning to his words of him and Rei 3 being the same (3 out of 4 FAR souls inhabiting a Angel body shaped as a Lilin). Although this notion seems to be contradicted by the Seele speech to Kaworu in EoE, when they tell him he's the one and only soul of Adam... maybe the sub I watched translated it wrong??

Also the "increase and flourish" part, could it mean that souls indeed reproduce? When Ritsuko says that the Chamber of Guf was empty of souls when they created Rei, maybe she simply meant that they couldn't produce new souls artificially, you either:
* take them from the CoG (if there are any),
* recycle them from someone else (what they did) or
* souls get created naturally when newborns are conceived.

I'm equally baffled on why he had to take the Evas with him? maybe the resident Lilin souls (2 FAR souls) got the Eva's DNA imprinted on them from inhabiting the Eva bodies? So DNA has a double ("double" helix, get it? -o-; ) function:
* Shaping matter into a body, regardless if it has a soul or not, thus allowing soulless bodies, and
* Imprinting itself on the soul, so a bodiless soul can shape matter using the imprinted DNA as a blueprint for re-embodiment.

(wow! this wall-of-text was just from reading page 1 of this thread, I better turn off the fanwanking powers... for now :devil: )
Last edited by K40s on Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22578
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:10 am

K40s: I got a completely different reading from the "bringing many peoples together as one" part. The wording reminded me immediately of Third Impact-type language (cf. Gendo's instructions to Rei), suggesting to me that an Impact-type event was used to reduce to FAR to naked souls and let them "board" the Moons. They're "brought together as one" within the respective Moons/CoGs.

Seed X being Adam-type makes sense, though it does provide the disclaimer that it doesn't know what form its life will yet take. This disclaimer is a bit vague, as it applies whether it is an Adam-type Seed (wherein the children choose their own forms, so of course the Seed wouldn't know what they are) or, somehow, hasn't chosen between the Fruits and their respective outcomes yet.

I've also taken "increase and flourish" to mean that souls do reproduce. Possibly, in sexually-reproducing organisms, every gamete produced by an individual contains a partial "soul seed" that combines with the "soul seed" in another gamete to form a complete soul. This could provide a basic explanation for "soul divisibility", as well, if every person is fundamentally comprised of two halves.

As for taking the Evas along, we know that there is soul-body feedback -- for example, Lilith's soul being affected by her time inside Rei. My thoughts lie in the same general direction as yours, i.e., the Lilin's souls have been fundamentally altered by residing within Eva vessels, and they now bear an Eva physical "imprint", among I would guess various psychological changes.
Avatar: "That's right. I'm a gay robot." (David 8 image by Junseo)
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

K40s
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 352
Joined: Jan 12, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby K40s » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:13 am

I got to page 3 now... so: -o-;

Two Seeds landing on the same planet in the galaxy is more than a coincidence: I've proposed a few reasons on why it could indeed be a coincidence:
* There aren't that many habitable planets on the Milky Way, each star has a habitable zone where habitable planets can exist, this is the zone where planets are neither so far from the star to be extremely cold nor so close to be extremely hot, having planets just in that zone and that also have other elements to make them habitable (a rocky planet, having water, an atmosphere, etc) is not that common, so it's quite possible that there were only 7 such planets on the whole Milky Way Galaxy.
* Habitable planets don't stay habitable forever, Mars is a good example, in the past it was in Sol's habitable zone, but as our star aged, that zone changed and Mars became too cold.
At the time the Seeds departed maybe there were 7 habitable planets, by the time when Adam arrived on Earth maybe there were only 6 left, the one Lilith was headed to became inhabitable (or destroyed) and she, lacking other options, simply headed to the closest one: Earth.
Seeing how "Seed X" tells Kaworu to join them in their journey, and not simply to pack up and leave to Mars or Mercury or some random planet in the closest star Alpha Centauri, this might well be the case.

The FAR were not beings who possessed both seeds themselves: the arguments made are quite interesting and convincing but I have a different take:
* If the FAR had the SoL they wouldn't be limited, so no need to pursue technology, which we know they had: maybe they had both fruits yet still were limited, remember what I was proposing about Lilin having 2 FAR souls and Angels having 4 FAR souls?
If Lilin having 2 FAR souls are incomplete beings, the hedgehog dilemma, the Human Limitation Theory, can't do ATF haxs, and all that, imagine the existence of a being with only 1 FAR soul: the FAR themselves! Maybe they had the body of a God, the SoL being effectively immortal, the SoK being intelligent and having technology, yet they were incredibly miserable? maybe they couldn't make use of neither Fruit's full potential? Thus the need to develop technology, envisioning "the FAR Limitation Theory" and creating the technology to combine their immortal, poor, miserable souls into two new types of existence:
- the Lilin who were mortal, half less miserable and had the full power of the FoK and
- the Angels who were immortal, in bliss and had the full power of the FoL.

Maybe the very nature of the Fruits is what limits the merging of the FAR souls, so a being with:
- both Fruits can only have up to 1 FAR soul and be miserable,
- only the FoK can have up to 2 FAR souls and be half miserable,
- only the FoL can have up to 4 FAR souls and be happy
Maybe this is what the FAR discovered, thus created the Seeds and forbid the union of the Fruits, because they didn't like being immortal, lonely and miserable beings who couldn't exploit their own full potential.
In this light, the Seeds are indeed superior beings than the FAR themselves and would ensure that the FAR could be reborn into something better.

* Eva-01, a double-fruited entity, is capable of surviving in space. Double-fruited FAR could have made an exodus through deep space without need for Seeds and Moons: Eva-01, possessing, at least, Yui's soul, a Lilin, the equivalent of 2 FAR souls, maybe a 1-FAR-soul being simply can't harness the full power of either Fruit and wouldn't be able to do the ATF haxery to survive in space and much less to propel themselves through space, away from (probably) an engulfing star going nova.

Shinoyami65
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 3926
Joined: Jul 26, 2012
Location: Vinculum Gate
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun May 19, 2013 6:10 am

View Original PostK40s wrote:The FAR were not beings who possessed both seeds themselves: the arguments made are quite interesting and convincing but I have a different take:
* If the FAR had the SoL they wouldn't be limited, so no need to pursue technology, which we know they had: maybe they had both fruits yet still were limited, remember what I was proposing about Lilin having 2 FAR souls and Angels having 4 FAR souls?
If Lilin having 2 FAR souls are incomplete beings, the hedgehog dilemma, the Human Limitation Theory, can't do ATF haxs, and all that, imagine the existence of a being with only 1 FAR soul: the FAR themselves! Maybe they had the body of a God, the SoL being effectively immortal, the SoK being intelligent and having technology, yet they were incredibly miserable? maybe they couldn't make use of neither Fruit's full potential? Thus the need to develop technology, envisioning "the FAR Limitation Theory" and creating the technology to combine their immortal, poor, miserable souls into two new types of existence:
- the Lilin who were mortal, half less miserable and had the full power of the FoK and
- the Angels who were immortal, in bliss and had the full power of the FoL.


I don't go in for the "more than one soul' stuff, althoguh I do agree that possession of both Fruits may have turned out worse for the FAR in the long run. Since they undergo the metaphysical separation of souls provided by the ATF of the FoK, as well as the physical seaparation provided by the a powerful ATF fuelled by the FoL, it's possible that they were kept separate from each other to an even greater degree than humans or Angels. The Angels themselves feel loneliness (such as in the case of Armisael); they are also far more "individual" and separate from each other than humans- they each have their own unique form and attack individually, never as a collective. The FAR, being akin to a race of human Angels, would be even further separated by the individuality their vast power and intellect provided them with.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22578
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun May 19, 2013 8:49 am

It's not stated anywhere that the FAR have both Fruits. I kind of doubt they did. If they had both, why would they ever bother developing technology? Why would they have been threatened with extinction? And why would the fusion of the fruits be implicitly forbidden?
Avatar: "That's right. I'm a gay robot." (David 8 image by Junseo)
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive

Shinoyami65
Seed
Seed
User avatar
Age: 20
Posts: 3926
Joined: Jul 26, 2012
Location: Vinculum Gate
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun May 19, 2013 9:05 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's not stated anywhere that the FAR have both Fruits. I kind of doubt they did. If they had both, why would they ever bother developing technology? Why would they have been threatened with extinction? And why would the fusion of the fruits be implicitly forbidden?


Well, if the FAR possessed both Fruits, they would still be limited by the amount they could do with their own basic FoL powered abilities. The Angels, for example, never take the time to construct devices or use any coherent tactics which might have led to their triumph. Possibly they strived to reach higher and combined the knowledge of the FoK with the raw power of the FoL, ultimately creating "impossible" or "god-slaying" devices which spanned the gap between technology and organisms (the LoL, the Black Moon, etc.).

As for extinction, there are just some things that are unavoidable. Natural disasters such as collapsing stars could have devastating effects if they weren't anticipated. If the FAR were lonely/miserable, their reproductive capability might also have been threatened. My personal fanwank theory is that they evolved to the point where they could no longer reproduce and had no choice but to wait for death, but there's no evidence to support it.

I think I read a theory on the wiki that the FAR forbade fusion of both Fruits because they feared the resulting organism would overshadow the FAR themselves (this theory assumes that the FAR had both Fruits), although if they were faced with extinction I'm not sure how that would affect them.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

Clover
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Posts: 733
Joined: Oct 08, 2013

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Clover » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:53 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:My personal fanwank theory is that they evolved to the point where they could no longer reproduce and had no choice but to wait for death, but there's no evidence to support it.
How does biology?

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 5007
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:19 pm

View Original PostClover wrote:How does biology?


It works somewhat different in EVA-verse.

Basic biomolecules seem to be way less abundant, for example.
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

ChaddyManPrime
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 2772
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
Location: Peoria, AZ
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri May 30, 2014 9:06 pm

Are there two types of FAR? The differences between Lilith and Adam are pretty odd.
"Look at Me!, I'm Mr. MeeSeeks!" - Mr. MeeSeeks

You know nothing, Jon Snow - Chuckman

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3294
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Sat May 31, 2014 2:57 pm

No, there's only the one. They made all the Seeds, and made them vastly different on purpose.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

Boethiah
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 11, 2016
Gender: Male

Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Boethiah » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:27 am

I find it strange that the FAR would need to go this...well, far to prevent the extinction of their race. If you can make things that play with spacetime like putty, how are you endangered with extinction?

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22578
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 高地園、新槍ノ島
Gender: Female

Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:13 am

As a sapient humanoid species, the FAR probably had their own sense of ethics and philosophy. It's conceivable that they frowned on the idea of using their technology to outright cheat entropy, as by artificially prolonging the lifespan of their homeworld and all that lived upon it. (Beware the spiral nemesis!)
Avatar: "That's right. I'm a gay robot." (David 8 image by Junseo)
Crying Man
(Or, How Dr. Katsuragi Found God): Read at AO3 & Discuss Here.
Status: First Draft. Chapter 10: Idle Hands released 5/24/2017.

"Fighting idiocy is like fighting a hydra. Cut off one head, two more grow back and need to tell you their uninformed opinion." - PeeJee, Something*Positive


Return to “Evangelion Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest