NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:07 am

[Edit: Decided that this might be better off in Discussion after all. Might merge with something later.]

Sup.

Been playing NGE2 for PS2 at long last despite having much better things to do with my time. Also been looking at game play footage at Niconico Douga, which included some MUCH better quality versions of the scenes mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.

I've been burning with ardent curiosity about some of them, so here's my first installment, Kaworu's bittersweet ending. Still needs some finishing touches, but I am really tired, and so excited about some of the revelations here (stuff the CI didn't tell us!) I totally needed to share.

Grab the source here.


=KAWORU'S ENDING=

(Kaworu activates his TABRIS POWER and goes into orbit. Command Center goes into a huff. Will actually translate this part later.)

(Kaworu floats belly-up over Earth.)

Kaworu:
So quiet.
I know this silence. I always have, from long ago...
This vast calm, I've known it… I’ve known, for as long as I’ve been me.

(Black screen. A voice that sounds like Kaworu’s appears.)

???:
You and your descendants’ promised land. This was that world?

Kaworu:
…… Who are you...?

(A serene, nude white figure shaped like Kaworu with purple energy wings appears in front of Kaworu.)

???:
I see my voice reached you. I wanted to permit conversation by borrowing your words, your form, and your voice.

Kaworu:
What are you...?

???:
This far in time, I have no name. No shape. Just the existence that is life itself.
Your soul ate too much of the Fruit of Life, and seems to have forgotten about ancient matters...

Kaworu:
You know me...?

???:
Because our race was of the same home world.

Kaworu:
The First Ancestral Race?

???:
That's what you call it...
You don't remember?
Knowing we would lose our home world, we embarked on a journey into the midst of space in search of other planets...
Returning ourselves to the form of life’s origins... While bringing many peoples together as one... In order to, one day, increase and flourish.

Kaworu:
I want to know... About who I am...

???:
There were seven carriers that our home world's people boarded, you and me (1) included.
You and I were designers to the people whom we had brought with us.
After implanting into a world somewhere, we either bestowed upon them shapes as any form of life, or acted as representatives and chose the forms.

Kaworu:
I see. My eyes are opened… I brought forth the Angels.
A plan... the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls were left behind, for when I was lost from sight...
And you... Is your world out there prospering...?

???:
We're still in the midst of our journey. To which planet are we struggling onward, and what kind of life will originate there? I still don't know...

Kaworu:
There is strife between the lives that share my planet as their place of birth.
Because two carriers implanted on a single world.
Truthfully, this conflict should never have been. It's just that they completely forgot about one another. (2)

???:
If that is how you feel, I hope you voyage again. Take the souls of your people.

Kaworu:
How?

???:
It is absolutely essential that you abandon that form.
Your children, too, should abandon their current forms and return to a carrier.
Here’s a thought. Why don't you journey with me?

Kaworu:
What do I do about our A.T. Fields...?

???:
Call the Spear. Wish for a time of beginnings. Then it will be okay to lead your people's souls.

(Nerv Command Center)

Hyuga:
The caged Evas have... disappeared!

Misato:
What did you say!?

Aoba:
The Fifth, as well. Target is lost!

Misato:
What's going on?

(Black Screen)

Kaworu:
Now then, let's go.
My children, and the Lilin's servants... (3)
Farewell, Lilith. Farewell, Lilin.
Thank you for teaching me about songs.

------

Notes:
1. "You and me" is more like "you, me, and implied others". Same with following sentence. I tried incorporating that in the translation, but it just didn't read well...
2. All the sentences here aside from the one about "two carriers" still have some problems. Couldn't find the exact meaning of a verb (or just too brain-dead to reason it out), and the thing about "forgetting each other" sounds like a non sequitur at the moment. Will need to fix later.
3. At first I read "my children" and thought "Angels", but then I realized, "Duh, this is the line from #24, with 'my children' swapped in for 'Adam's offspring', hence Evas".

------

Confirms or feeds into some of my own pet notions, so I'm moderately happy. Most of the FAR's souls being recycled into the (apparently seven) descendant human races wasn't something I expected, though.

I must say I dislike the items of ambiguity at the end:

- What happened to the Evas, exactly? [See edit below.]

- How can the Angels abandon their forms any more than they already have, since they're all dead? [EDIT: Now I understand that by "children", they're talking about the Evas, too, who still have bodies. Alrighty... So if the Evas "abandon their forms", aren't we basically left with the god-stained souls of Yui, Kyoko, Suzuhara-san, and whoever the hell Eva-00 and Eva-04 are? Of course, whoever ended up going along would depend on who was caged at the time, of which I currently have no idea.]

- And I kind of wonder why the only solution to Adam's problem is a Seed with nothing better to do than chat via long-distance avatar.

Well, maybe translating more scenes will elaborate matters...

Note: Stickied by request. ~SSD
Last edited by Reichu on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:57 pm

This is just plain weird. Does this mean there are 5 other fruits, any combination of which could lead to disaster... and if so, why does this other Seed invite Kaworu along?

This strikes me as entirely too fanfiction-y.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:11 pm

NemZ wrote:Does this mean there are 5 other fruits, any combination of which could lead to disaster...

No idea. Seed X mentions a discrepancy ("we either bestowed upon them shapes as any form of life, or acted as representatives and chose the forms") in keeping with the notion of two "types". Incompatibility with Adam et al. may also have not been an issue due to them "abandoning their forms", and/or because Seed X didn't know what form vis own race would yet take. It's pretty vague, really...

The "seven" struck me as a pretty blunt reference to "seven eyes of God" more so than anything else.

This strikes me as entirely too fanfiction-y.

Some of the information could just as easily have been in the CI itself. Is it the weird "alternate event" aspect that you have a problem with?

..."Fanfiction-y"? Eva fans actually write about things like this? :nyao:
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Postby Octahedron » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:56 pm

The line would seem to imply that there are two ways the SoL beings can work, so all the Seeds would probably create Angel-like or Lilin-like beings. If the being on the Seed X was an Adam-like being (or perhaps Adam and Lilith are similar beings that just decided to make different kinds of lifeforms), then presumably the lifeforms it would create would get along with Angels of another Seed just fine.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:22 pm

Reichu wrote:[seven seeds of life]
[FAR are Kryptonians]


FUCKING WHAT

That is some severely interesting shit right there. Genuinely did not expect it. There's a space-opera prequel in there somewhere.

Also adds a little credence to the theory that Mari is another Seed of Life; at least, now we know for fairly sure that such things exist.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:33 pm

NGE2 wrote:Kaworu:
The First Ancestral Race?

???:
That's what you call it...
You don't remember?
Knowing we would lose our home world, we embarked on a journey into the midst of space in search of other planets...
Returning ourselves to the form of life’s origins... While bringing many peoples together as one... In order to, one day, increase and flourish.
Hmmm...
This seems rather prosaic stuff, as S.F. goes. I had thought that the unstated motive of the FAR, in sending Seeds of Life out across the galaxy, IOW, the message, of which the Angels and the Lilim were the messengers, was life itself, that is, that sentient life was its own justification and that Life > non-Life.

This just makes the FAR out to be pretty run-of-the-mill galactic refugees.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:38 pm

I revised my initial post a little bit.

Azathoth wrote:Also adds a little credence to the theory that Mari is another Seed of Life

:rei_meh:

@Shin-seiki: My own thinking had been that the message was humanity specifically, since this is what all of the designated "Angels" have in common. As for the blow the refugee bit might deliver to a "messenger" interpretation, I'm not sure this is necessarily the case. Note especially the lines below what you italicized.

Returning ourselves to the form of life’s origins... While bringing many peoples together as one... In order to, one day, increase and flourish.

These were pretty cryptic and hard to interpret, but my guess is that Seed X means the following:

(1) "Ourselves" are the seven Seeds. ("You, me, implied others".) This is pretty Engrishy at the moment, but the "return" in question probably refers to their transformations into manifestations of a primordial force, that which brings new life into existence.

(2) "Bringing many peoples together as one" smells rather strongly of Instrumentality-like business. Well, the souls have to be gathered up into the Seeds' Chambers of Guf somehow.

(3) Increase and flourish = Start up several new franchises of humanity on other planets.

In other words, they're not just saving their hides. They're not really preserving their original race in any meaningful way. What is being preserved, though, and proliferated? Humanity.

Of course, my interpretation could be heavily biased. I've had the whimsy for quite a while that not only have the FAR been effectively extinct for billions of years, they basically pulled a mass "return to the beginning" maneuver (and made the Seeds, of course) due to their inherent mortality as a race and reliance upon a transient world for survival. But my idea had been that most of the FAR retired to Red Space, and the Seeds started out with fresh souls. I guess the recycling and propagation of what were human souls in the first place is a bit more intuitive.

I'm also happy that my old "Seeds have the souls of FAR" theory, which never got taken very seriously far as I can tell, is vindicated. Along with maybe some other things. I've probably gloated enough.

By the way, just to be annoying, I want to post this again:

Episode 26' wrote:Fuyutsuki:
Humans create Evangelion to copy God... Is this our true goal?

Yui:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever...
together with the human soul that dwells within it.
Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki:
It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...


(The stuff about being "alone" is usually used as evidence that Yui has nobody with her, and never will. Considering some of the rather overt parallels with the deep past, however, I'm not sure why something like a Dr. Manhattan scenario would be out of the question. I.e., making life because she's effectively a god.)

There's also this bit of weirdness from the screenplay version of Misato's speech to Shinji, just for fun:

Episode #25' Screenplay wrote:Misato: "People cannot live without the mothers of life -- the Sun, Earth, and Moon. But an Angel that isn't dependent on them would be a new form of life, capable of surviving the harshest conditions.
Misato: "Eva was its model."
Misato: "People will probably perish, any which way. But right this moment, we can't just sit back and let humanity get annihilated."
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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:28 am

Reichu wrote:..."Fanfiction-y"? Eva fans actually write about things like this? :nyao:


oOoOoOo did. ^_^

I meant more that it seems like the sort of needless explanation that fans would be inclined to offer. I'm not a fan of the FAR in general, and the more we learn about them the less interesting they become. I was perfectly happy not knowing where the hell the first angels came from because it doesn't matter to the story in the slightest; it's just detail.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:33 am

NemZ wrote:it doesn't matter to the story in the slightest; it's just detail.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. This ties into the whole "conflicting desires of different fans" being covered over here right now. (I explain why I disagree with the whole "it's just detail" mentality in the spoilered part here.)

I thought the new stuff I found was generally neat (well, I might be biased...) and wanted to discuss it without rehashing a debate that's happening somewhere else. This thread probably isn't for those who find the FAR inherently unnecessary and boring.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:48 pm

The "up sticks and head off for somewhere else" end does seem a little bit anti-climactic.

As for FAR=Kryptonians; I think that it would be informative for people living in jurisdictions where the copyright has expired on Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men to read the Project Gutenberg version if they can't find a treeware copy. Viewing the society of the Last Men in conjunction with the related themes in NGE is an interesting exercise.
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Postby NAveryW » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:51 pm

Reichu wrote:The stuff about being "alone" is usually used as evidence that Yui has nobody with her, and never will. Considering some of the rather overt parallels with the deep past, however, I'm not sure why something like a Dr. Manhattan scenario would be out of the question. I.e., making life because she's effectively a god.
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...The FAR lived together without any horrible Impacts, didn't they? If the Seeds of Life have their souls, why does an Impact happen if a Seed with a soul contacts another (e.g. Lilith in Rei's Body and Adam in Adam's restored body in Gendo's hand)? The soul is ostensibly important to the scenario happening, as Adam's Spear of Longinus was stuck inside soulless Lilith for quite some time without problem.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:28 pm

NAveryW wrote:HI THERE THANKS FOR SPOILING WATCHMEN
And in Space Runaway Ideon, everybody dies.

When the material in question pre-dates NGE by a decade, I think the statute of spoiler limitations is long expired. Also

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:35 pm

...The FAR lived together without any horrible Impacts, didn't they? If the Seeds of Life have their souls, why does an Impact happen if a Seed with a soul contacts another (e.g. Lilith in Rei's Body and Adam in Adam's restored body in Gendo's hand)? The soul is ostensibly important to the scenario happening, as Adam's Spear of Longinus was stuck inside soulless Lilith for quite some time without problem.


Because it's the opposing Seeds that are the big deal here, not the souls of whoever owns them (they're pretty much necessary for controlling the Fruits, I guess, since they have the instinctive knowledge to do so).
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Postby NAveryW » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:05 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:
...The FAR lived together without any horrible Impacts, didn't they? If the Seeds of Life have their souls, why does an Impact happen if a Seed with a soul contacts another (e.g. Lilith in Rei's Body and Adam in Adam's restored body in Gendo's hand)? The soul is ostensibly important to the scenario happening, as Adam's Spear of Longinus was stuck inside soulless Lilith for quite some time without problem.


Because it's the opposing Seeds that are the big deal here, not the souls of whoever owns them (they're pretty much necessary for controlling the Fruits, I guess, since they have the instinctive knowledge to do so).
The Fruit of Life is the S² Engine. Unit 01, born of Lilith-type material, obtained an S² Engine and thus, according to Fuyutsuki, held both Fruits despite having one soul.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:46 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:The "up sticks and head off for somewhere else" end does seem a little bit anti-climactic.

Can you explain?

It seems that most of the respondees so far have been disappointed by the additional info. I'm not really sure why. Maybe I haven't had the tropes worn thin on me by overexposure to sci-fi. They still hold a sort of poignant mythological element. At least, where NGE is concerned.

NAveryW wrote:...The FAR lived together without any horrible Impacts, didn't they? If the Seeds of Life have their souls, why does an Impact happen if a Seed with a soul contacts another (e.g. Lilith in Rei's Body and Adam in Adam's restored body in Gendo's hand)?

IMO that question exists independent of the knowledge that their souls are intrinsically of the same sort (which we only need the original show to figure out, BTW; the only thing that's been demonstrated here is that they're not only human, they're FAR, but I've been saying that all along!). Why does an impact happen? The factors responsible seem to be a bit more complicated than "one soul contacting another". This is a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:58 pm

Reichu wrote:Can you explain?
As a story, it's pretty much a classical deus ex machina -- another Power happens along, and makes the cause of the conflict go away (as well as thwarting both Gendo and SEELE's endgames). It might work as a narrative (rather than a game with object to play all paths or save the world) if it happened half-way, and managed to finesse the abrupt genre-switch when all the super-robot stuff went away.

As to the new information implicit or explicit -- to me at least it seems more confirmation of what had previously been implied than revelation. Not that that is a bad thing, mind you.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:07 pm

I remembering seeing (and mentioning on the forums) the "7 carriers" business when last playing the game, though it confused me too much to honestly make heads or tails of it. -o-;

I personally find it to be interesting and a nice supplement to the actual series (then again, I love Eva2 as much as I love NGE, so I'm probably biased), considering this particular bit of information doesn't seem to contradict anything known.

And now, I seriously need to stop getting distracted by various threads and focus on school/life. >_>
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:47 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:As a story, it's pretty much a classical deus ex machina -- another Power happens along, and makes the cause of the conflict go away (as well as thwarting both Gendo and SEELE's endgames).

Oh, you're talking about Seed X? Well, I'll agree with you that I'm really enthralled with it on a narrative level. It's a rather dissatisfying solution to Adam's problems, as well. I think I'm bitter over the "fuse with Eva-02" thing in #24 never being followed up on.

As to the new information implicit or explicit -- to me at least it seems more confirmation of what had previously been implied than revelation. Not that that is a bad thing, mind you.

I'll agree that the implication was there all along (in such things as the Yui / Fuyu conversation), but judging from most of the discussions I can recall where the FAR come up, the implication was not widely recognized. It seems rather popular to think of the progenitor humans as the sorts of aliens who are so powerful their own extinction would be a non-issue, and that they more or less view the galaxy as a church they want to fill with followers, so to speak... That is, I don't think the idea that they Seeded for survival/preservation was widely considered. (Of course, this could be a conceit on my part. But just my impression.)
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Postby Otakon 08 Ikari » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:46 pm

Pretty cool stuff Reichu,
Now I've been busy with work from 11-8 everyday but I'm trying to get Eva more into my life again. Got my Cosplay's ready and all that great stuff now anyway from what I can see here the Units and the Angels go with Nagisa off to where ever but what about the souls of the pilots mothers?

Do they go as well, they are not part of the Adam family.
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Postby Agent_Koopa » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:47 pm

Well, remember, the combination of the different Fruits and the production of an Third-Impact-level event are only bad things from the point of view of the entities caught up in the unification. On a cosmic scale, it's really just the formation of a new godlike being, with power equivalent to that of the FAR or perhaps greater.
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