NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby zlink64 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:24 pm

There are FAR like aliens in the space odessy 2001 universes. I say universes cause the books apparently are not really set in the same continuity and are more like similar alternate dimensions. What happened in one of them is that they where trying to spread and promote intelligent life because ....that's just what advance aliens race like to do in their free time. Once they evolved into higher beings similar to like the FAR with both seeds in Eva they kinda just lost interest and left the responsibility of looking over the races they created and spread to the big black monoliths.
I could be wrong about some details though because I read this from wiki a while ago. Anyway, it might be interesting to compare Eva FAR to Space odessy version of FAR and in FARs from other sci fi things like Prometheus movie if you wanna find their motive since the Eva version seem to be inspired by the sci fi genre trope. I would go into it more but I don't really know that much about FAR form other stories and I forget stuff about the Eva FAR....like it's not fresh in my brain.
hmmm

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:53 pm

It is an old and deep motif in science fiction for the current state of the galaxy to be down to panspermia on the part of some elder civilisation, usually absent, save perhaps some enigmatic artifacts -- it's in fact the central conceit of one American 1950s space opera series that has managed to get enduring popularity in Japan (even if the more recent editions have updated some of the early 1950s technology for the modern reader).
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:19 pm

By contrast, Olaf Stapledon's book Last and First Men has the last race of humanity acting as the FAR, attempting to seed the universe as it faces extinction by an exploding Sun.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Boethiah » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:52 pm

I was thinking of the FAR as more like the Time Lords from Doctor Who: capable of really advanced shit, but prone to petty infighting and stuff.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 25, 2016 9:44 am

The unnamed Seed describes a dichotomy that alludes to the two Fruits:

There were seven carriers that our home world's people boarded, you and me (1) included.
You and I were designers to the people whom we had brought with us.
After implanting into a world somewhere, we either bestowed upon them shapes as any form of life, or acted as representatives and chose the forms.

The former describes the FoL plan (form chosen on an individual basis, e.g. Adam's Children), and the latter the FoK plan (form already set, e.g. Lilin).

It also says:
We're still in the midst of our journey. To which planet are we struggling onward, and what kind of life will originate there? I still don't know...

That the Seed doesn't know "what kind of life" it will create possibly suggests that it has not yet decided upon a Fruit to confer to its offspring.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 26, 2016 5:41 am

It's immensely fascinating that the Seed gets final say over which Fruit it gives to its offspring instead of having one pre-assigned to it by the FAR. Doesn't his conversation with Kaworu also imply that they could abandon their form using the Lance and possibly become the other type if they wanted a new beginning?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 26, 2016 8:00 am

I wonder what exact relevance the Spear has here...? What is it supposed to do?

In any case, we've seen in endings like "Good Night" that souls can be reborn as another form of life (Lilin rebirthed as Angels, for instance). Though if being transfigured in this way is all Kaworu et al. have to look forward to, it feels like arriving at some kind of arrangement on Earth would be the path of least resistance...
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 26, 2016 5:30 pm

I'm not clear what the Spear does in any given situation. It sure doesn't do a very good job keeping the Seeds in check anymore. Maybe it somehow allows the Angels to free their souls?

Yeah, that's a good point. Kaworu/Adam and Lilith don't seem to have any personal beef with one another, so unless the Angels are hell-bent on having their own planet, couldn't they just wish to be reborn as Lilin and solve that whole problem?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 26, 2016 7:34 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Maybe it somehow allows the Angels to free their souls?

The Angels seem to be able to do that on their own. (Any Angel that encounters Lilith casts off its body and becomes little more than a "bundle of light". Souls in NGE aren't always presented as little red dots, e.g. Yui is a light radiating through water.) Though, the ending only mentions the liberation of the Evas, who are a bit encumbered and might need some help. I suppose the Anti-ATF properties of the Spear may have some relevance, though if Kaworu is summoning the Spear to work its magic on the Evas wouldn't you think the bridge crew would mention it, too? Bleh.

Yeah, that's a good point. Kaworu/Adam and Lilith don't seem to have any personal beef with one another, so unless the Angels are hell-bent on having their own planet, couldn't they just wish to be reborn as Lilin and solve that whole problem?

This ending is really all kinds of contrived. It feels less like the most logical way to solve the Angels' problem and more like a really tortured way to get an exposition dump on FAR and Seed matters. Creates any number of obnoxious and unnecessary questions. Just where the hell IS this Seed that it still hasn't found a habitable planet after 4 +x billion years? [x= approximate travel time of Lilith] It has to be pretty damn far away, right? And it can just engage in insta-telepathy with Kaworu? How exactly are Kaworu and Adam's offspring supposed to -- as bare naked souls, mind -- reach this Moon that some unfathomable number of light years away? What will be propelling them or protecting them? Just... blargh.

Since Kaworu is taking the Evas anyway, I have to wonder why they didn't just capitalize on the "Kaworu merges with an Eva" thing mentioned or alluded to no less than three times in episode #24. Maybe Kaworu + Eva + Adam Embryo = Reconstituted Adam, or something. At that point, the One Formerly Known As Kaworu has their deep memory unlocked and, while undergoing ego fusion/awakening/whatever, converses with their previous self as a means of conveying all required Far/Seed stuff. Then the reborn Adam summons the Spear, collects all relevant souls in its Guf, and blasts off to [wherever], maybe hijacking something in the asteroid belt (if a planetoid carrier thing is absolutely necessary) on the way. Fruit of Life removed from Earth; Angels get their own planet; no other Seeds are required to inexplicably intervene; problem solved.

I do wonder if MAAAAAAYBE the ending would make a mite more sense if more of the cut scenes from Kaworu's PSP scenario were translated. Well, if no one else ever gets to them, rest assured that one of these years I will.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu May 26, 2016 8:05 pm

I forgot that Seed X mentioned it was still searching for a planet. The cutscene gave me the impression that it conveniently happened to be passing by relatively close to Earth when Kaworu had that vision. But like you said, how the hell did it take the thing four billion years more than Adam and Lilith to reach this part galactic neighborhood? Is it wandering around looking at the real estate? The seven Seeds must have all come from the same place.

The Angels wouldn't even have to go that far away if they wanted their own planet. Just pack their bags and head to Mars. They can live there and the Lilin can't, so everyone's happy. As convenient as the ending is, it does at least give us some nice information on the Seeds/FAR.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:52 pm

And now for something completely different! In NGE2 there are a bunch of secret folios, totally separate from the CI; basically short, silent cut scenes pertaining to one of the topics you can research. Most of them just cover a development from the show (Spear of Longinus recovered from Antarctica, Second Branch's disappearance, etc.), but one always stood out as... different. I finally buckled down and translated it. At first I thought, "what the hell?", but eventually...

Image

出張計画書の内容に従い、小笠原沖の視察を行った。
In accordance with the details of the business trip proposal, I went to the investigation of the Ogasawara Sea.

そこでは潜水艦らしき船の引き上げが行われていた。
There, the salvage of a submarine-like vessel was being undertaken.

水中モニターで伺うその形状は今まで見た事が無く、青く、美しい船であった…。
The form being ascertained* via underwater monitor was something never before seen, a beautiful blue ship...

* I honestly have no idea what 伺う is supposed to be doing here. I can't find a single meaning that makes contextual sense. Educated guess taken, accordingly.

これが先住民族の技術で作られた兵器なのか。
そしてエヴァは…。
Was this a weapon built with an indigenous people's technology?
And the Evas were...

第1始祖民族に関する情報が、非公開情報にあがりました。
Intelligence concerning the First Ancestral Race was promoted to non-disclosure information.

Do you get it? Do you get their joke? :tongue: I was honestly hoping for something of more substance, but I guess a nerdy Easter egg for Anno fans doesn't hurt.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:30 am

N-Nautilus reference?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:33 am

That was my take.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:05 pm

You got it!

In-context, I'm not sure what this is supposed to do with the FAR, unless the relevant part, the weird segue into Evas, was supposed to have been cut off by virtue of an in-game intelligence block. If we take this seriously, and I don't think we should, this lends credence to the idea that all Gainax shows happen in the same timeline / on the same world. :3
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:37 pm

If it's not the Nautilus, maybe it's the proto-Wunder? :tongue:
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby cyharding » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:29 pm

I don't remember where I read it, but I thought that when production of the show was in its early stages, they were planning that the events of Nadia were mentioned as things that happened in the past.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:24 pm

I'd need to see the source before I believed something so specific. Things like the Proposal, though, do seem to indicate that Anno & Co. initially envisioned the First Ancestral Race as the Atlanteans by a different name -- that is, they were a civilization that once had a presence on Earth, as opposed to the more distant creators we're familiar with. I'm guessing the people who worked on NGE2 were making a meta joke along these lines, with the whole Nautilus thing.

Eventually I'll get to bump the thread with something more pertinent, as I seem to recall Kaworu's scenario name-dropping the FAR a few times. So much to translate... T_T
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:39 am

There was this from Schizo/Parano. Maybe that's what cyharding was thinking of?

There are so many cool ideas in the pre-production materials that weren't used in the show. I'd love it if the next movie stopped teasing and actually did link one of the Eva-verses to Nadia.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby cyharding » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:19 pm

^Reading it, I think that's what it was. Thanks. ^_^

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:18 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The unnamed Seed describes a dichotomy that alludes to the two Fruits:


The former describes the FoL plan (form chosen on an individual basis, e.g. Adam's Children), and the latter the FoK plan (form already set, e.g. Lilin).



So, basically this proves that the 7 seeds can only be one of two types? I suppose the we can infer a thing or two about the "4 Adams" seen in 2nd Impact flashback in 2.22...That would mean there's two other "Lilith-type" seeds floating around out there somewhere in the Rebuild-verse...
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