jim_loves_randy wrote:The OP is very interesting. Could you go over the other major characters? (Misato, Gendo, the Doctor, etc.)

Thanks. I would class Gendo as Anti-social PD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

However the intersting thing about Gendo is that during the end of eva he admitted that he rejected Shinji because he did'nt believe anybody could love him, which sounds kind of AvPD.
There was a case where a serial killer was diagnosed with both ASPD and AvPD, which is rare as they are from different clusters.

As for the others, well I don't think they really have PD's to be honest. Misato seems to have traits from Dependent and Borderline but no way is she damaged enough to have a full blown PD. Someone said the Doctor,Akagi, was Histronic PD but again I don't think it's pervasive enough.

While adolescence is typically an age where you see an increase of psychiatric diagnoses such as substance abuse, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, and schizophrenia, I do not believe that the 3 teen pilots fit the criteria for fully being tagged as PD patients, nor are they observed for long time enough to even begin such a discussion. Take note that the fundamental psychiatrical advice in teen psychiatry - and especially in PD -, is to avoid putting the PD diagnosis on the table first, as the personality of a teenager is still a work in progress. I will not go any further into this though, this time, this seems like a done thread.

I will however succumb to the temptation of making one little adjustment: If your entire nervous system was subject to constant "torture" - like what happens when the EVAs get dismembered on call - in several neural pathways, not just "nerve stuff", you are likely to demonstrate certain tendencies. Neural pathways are submitted to constant microarchitectural changes at the synaptic level, that more or less define and (re)define our "stance" towards a particular situation - at times. Ever wondered why spicy food tends to not be so spicy after you are "addicted" to it, to the point where you injest spice that would make the average person go for the fire extinguisher? A neurochemical shift, is a neurochemical shift and all hell breaks loose. I don't find it unexpected that frequently after the combat sequences, the major characters walk out of the Neuro dept. And not their psych consult. Their "mechas" are not mechas after all, they are cyborgs who are supposedly into direct interface with their pilot's cns... What the EVAborgs physically feel, is what is being dumped into the literally immature brains of the pilots, not to mention other "experiences" the EVAborgs dump to their pilots, whether they like it, or not.

However, if you still want to go down the DSM path, why go towards PD and not PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder)? It is of common knowledge that traumatic events that may trigger PTSD include violent personal assaults, natural or human-caused disasters, accidents, or military combat. Pretty much, excessively stressful experiences, you know, things that make the amygdala go into hyperdrive. Several of the symptoms - as well as trigger causes - of PTSD can be evidently shown in the 3 teenagers, in a much more conclusive manner than the PD criteria. Do we need to reference the constant flashbacks the characters have? Or several other things reworked to the pixel in these forums...

Since some like wikipedia links, here is one, unfortunately incomplete, but nonetheless, cohere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder

Mix that with even a subtle substrate of behavioural "deviation" due to their "past" - and to the point where they can actually be conscious of - and you have an unfortunately explosive mix that defines the "EVA pilot weirdo". In a similar fashion, this applies to the other post 2I characters.

Wow, here's a Freud on the forums. You've sure earned your place here, my learned friend. Oh wait, that's a term used by lawyers...oh well.

I think the point we're trying to get onto here is that the main characters actually possess a certain degree of personality-related social dysfunction even before they ever touch their EVAs...Shinji is the unapproachably shy kid in the corner; Asuka acts overblown, arrogant and egotistic; Rei, of course, is the classic soulless "doll" who only follows orders from one person. Sure, their experiences in the entry plug don't exactly help but the fact that the problems are there beforehand gives us something more to look into.
Whether these are full-blown PDs or mere quirks I'll leave it up to you to decide, but there's definitely an element of personality that makes it difficult for the pilots to interact sociably and pleasurably with the people in their lives, and there's probably a related PD that can be related to each person's thought patterns in some way. Perhaps they're each on a slippery slope that could result in a PD at a later stage in their lives? It's still an open question...but one that I'd be interested in tackling.

Oh, and ArborVitae...where did you get your Psych degree?

AyrYntake wrote:Wow, here's a Freud on the forums. You've sure earned your place here, my learned friend. Oh wait, that's a term used by lawyers...oh well.

Thanks for the welcoming then. I hope to have some fun in here as well.

AyrYntake wrote:I think the point we're trying to get onto here is that the main characters actually possess a certain degree of personality-related social dysfunction even before they ever touch their EVAs...Shinji is the unapproachably shy kid in the corner; Asuka acts overblown, arrogant and egotistic; Rei, of course, is the classic soulless "doll" who only follows orders from one person. Sure, their experiences in the entry plug don't exactly help but the fact that the problems are there beforehand gives us something more to look into.

I don't disagree with the heavy influence of the facts of their pre EVA lifes, I am just suggesting a more likely alternative to the PD hypothesis, meaning, PTSD or even - dare I say - C-PTSD (which I firmly believe is Shinji's case in certain EoE clips). I believe that the entire epic would have been even more epic if Anno could place the major characters in their 20s. The "experiences" of the major characters during their series portrayal, would very much aggravate an underlying, morbid temperament; or they could simply start the circle themselves. You are still talking about "teen characters" though, more so, teen characters that are seen as such within an extremely particular creative process in Anno's mind - both for him personally as well as socially speaking.

AyrYntake wrote:Whether these are full-blown PDs or mere quirks I'll leave it up to you to decide, but there's definitely an element of personality that makes it difficult for the pilots to interact sociably and pleasurably with the people in their lives, and there's probably a related PD that can be related to each person's thought patterns in some way. Perhaps they're each on a slippery slope that could result in a PD at a later stage in their lives? It's still an open question...but one that I'd be interested in tackling.

Anything is possible, within certain limits and exceptions, as long as one lives. But it would be too much for a Gainax epic. The whole point however is that we cannot tag the characters, as presented in the tv series, manga etc as a whole - or in separate occasions - as clear and clean portrayals of PDs, when there are more plausible and fitting explanations. I know I am among fellow EVA geeks, so I will leave it there.

AyrYntake wrote:Oh, and ArborVitae...where did you get your Psych degree?

It has to do with the nick, but not quite. But more so.

Merged from [url]http://forum.evageeks.org/post/736044/Asuka-and-college/#736044[/url] -NemZ

Sorrow wrote:Her reason would be that she's the great Asuka and he's "baka-Shinji". She has done so well to exceed in life that she doesn't view other people as her equal - how could she? She's just cock-sure of herself; when it's put to her that she isn't the best or as good as she believes then it's a matter of her being worthless and not someone else is actually capable.

And that's the important point: what did she do to excel in life? Well she trained since she was four of course! She would be so sure of her superiority if she was parachuted inside the cockpit without any previous training like Shinji was in episode 1, it's all the training and studying she did for the past 10 years that in her eyes gives her the right to brag and be superior to everyone.

Perhaps you just don't understand the narcissistic mind? I don't really know how to explain it to you, but she need not endure 10 years of training to feel the way she feels. It may seem illogical to you, but it's perfectly natural.

Asuka has never failed or been shown up until Shinji comes along.

Also, why do you think she trained for all them years? She was only selected to be a pilot when she was four; it's only your conjecture that she'd been under-going training ever since.

We know from Shinji and Toji's case that it clearly isn't necessary. If it were then Gendo would have called Shinji in much sooner and enrolled him in the program and Shinji's classmates certainly wouldn't be candidates.

Sorrow wrote:Perhaps you just don't understand the narcissistic mind?

Except she's not a narcissist. And she has endured ten years of training and gotten a college degree in the process, so it's not like she's full of hot air or anything. She just doesn't do these things for their own sake -- she does them in a desperate bid to avoid being thrown away like trash (like her mom was). And that's why she's not a narcissist; a narcissist would feel she was entitled to such things, but Asuka works hard (to the extent she can be bothered, i.e. when she knows her ass is on the chopping block otherwise) because she's certain she's not. Hence her histrionic mind, and the fact she doesn't give a shit about Eva per se, just the fact that it's her meal ticket and a way for her to demonstrate her importance.

IOW she is very talented, but the extent to which she works hard is born of desperation, not a hunger to succeed or anything like that. Given her choice in the matter she'd rather lounge around reading fashion magazines and eating potato chips than doing anything related to Eva.

Bagheera wrote:Except she's not a narcissist. And she has endured ten years of training and gotten a college degree in the process, so it's not like she's full of hot air or anything. She just doesn't do these things for their own sake -- she does them in a desperate bid to avoid being thrown away like trash (like her mom was). And that's why she's not a narcissist; a narcissist would feel she was entitled to such things, but Asuka works hard because she's certain she's not. Hence her histrionic mind, and the fact she doesn't give a shit about Eva per se, just the fact that it's her meal ticket and a way for her to demonstrate her importance.

Right from the get go Asuka mentions her great Eva, how it's the first production model. When it's put into the heat resistant suit she is mortified for both her and her Eva. She clearly has a fondness for it. What about the synch test where she asked why she wasn't involved in being put into a different entry plug? Misato calmed her by simply saying "We didn't think you'd want to pilot anything other than Unit-02" and Asuka cheerfully agrees with her.

The reason Asuka is a narcissist is because she demands people see her the way she has created herself. For the most part she's even unaware of her true self and lies to everyone--herself especially--convincingly. Anything to compromise that--even as petty as looking ridiculous in the magma episode--is a blow to Asuka's ego. Her justification for doing that magma mission despite the embarrassing suits was to prove she is capable of a solo mission and the best pilot for it.

She believes she's the best simply because she believes she's the best. It doesn't have to tie in with what she's done previously. The fact she has excelled doesn't mean she's necessarily aspired to it and only encourages her narcissistic mind. Narcissists don't just sit at home believing their own lies. They're usually quite talented, usually excel to a certain degree. If they do fail, they'll hide it at all costs. No matter what. Death is certainly more favourable than admitting failure and everyone knowing it.

Sorrow wrote:Right from the get go Asuka mentions her great Eva, how it's the first production model. When it's put into the heat resistant suit she is mortified for both her and her Eva. She clearly has a fondness for it. What about the synch test where she asked why she wasn't involved in being put into a different entry plug? Misato calmed her by simply saying "We didn't think you'd want to pilot anything other than Unit-02" and Asuka cheerfully agrees with her.

That just means she has a favorite toy, not that she defines herself by her Eva. I like my car, I don't want anyone else driving it, and I don't particularly want to drive others' cars. That doesn't make the car anything other than a possession that I like. Same with Asuka and her Eva, though her Eva is obviously a more important part of her life (same as all the pilots and Nerv as a whole).

The reason Asuka is a narcissist is because she demands people see her the way she has created herself. For the most part she's even unaware of her true self and lies to everyone--herself especially--convincingly. Anything to compromise that--even as petty as looking ridiculous in the magma episode--is a blow to Asuka's ego. Her justification for doing that magma mission despite the embarrassing suits was to prove she is capable of a solo mission and the best pilot for it.

None of that makes her a narcissist. In fact, it's the very antithesis of the term -- she's created a shell she doesn't actually believe out of self-preservation. She doesn't believe her own hype. You can't be a narcissist if you hate yourself and think you're junk.

She believes she's the best simply because she believes she's the best. It doesn't have to tie in with what she's done previously. The fact she has excelled doesn't mean she's necessarily aspired to it and only encourages her narcissistic mind. Narcissists don't just sit at home believing their own lies. They're usually quite talented, usually excel to a certain degree. If they do fail, they'll hide it at all costs. No matter what. Death is certainly more favourable than admitting failure and everyone knowing it.

But not because it's a blow to her ego. Death is preferable to failure because she knows there will be consequences to failure, and she's right.

Sebastian Cabot wrote:None of that makes her a narcissist. In fact, it's the very antithesis of the term -- she's created a shell she doesn't actually believe out of self-preservation. She doesn't believe her own hype. You can't be a narcissist if you hate yourself and think you're junk.

An idealised narcissist would be someone who has genuine love for themselves, vain beyond all comprehension with no understanding of love; they're really arrogant and just brag all day long. A real life narcissist however is usually far more complex; someone who is very sensitive to criticism, cannot handle their own flaws and lash out when the image becomes scratched or dented; even at themselves. They attempt to hide their flaws to the point they are no longer visible. You can be a narcissist and be aware of that fact, it's not a paradox to be aware of your own behaviour.

Just because you know you're hiding your flaws and pretending they didn't exist doesn't mean you'll cease to do so. Infact, being aware of such behaviour would only serve to make you more apt at accomplishing this.

You can even find narcissistic pleasure in your own worthlessness. How no one can comprehend how you feel, what you've had to endure.

Narcissists are often self pitying. They start by lashing out and tearing everyone else down, setting themselves above them. When there is nowhere left to run they rip themselves to shreds for not being capable enough, attractive enough, being useless and not being intelligent enough to prevent this. Instead of admitting other people are better than them they'll feel they themselves are exceptionally vile - yet somehow still superior to all others.

A narcissist is very capable of hating themselves, they're not some Freudian caricature of a jock that flexes in the mirror and talks about all the babes he's had.

Asuka believes herself to be better than everyone, she is capable and talented; she brags about being the most popular girl in school and how others should be privileged to have her presence grace them. She's constantly conscious of how other people view her, When that image is shattered she goes on to how lowly she thinks of herself. It's never about other people.

For Asuka, feeling second best only serves to hurt. She simply cannot accept anyone being better than her, this is evident from all the moaning and sarcasm about the "great hero Shinji". It only makes her happy when he slips up.

As for the histrionic thing, well, histrionic itself seems wholly redundant. If a man were to exhibit the same behaviour, almost any psychiatrist would label him as a narcissist. You can't even read about Histrionic Personality Disorder without narcissism cropping up; it's essentially a female variant of a narcissist who uses sexual allure as a means to garner attention - in a nutshell. Asuka doesn't use sex for attention, she uses sex as a means to validate an image of herself in her own mind. The "woman" Asuka.

Not to mention she's not even overtly sexual. Instead of enjoying praise that may have come her way and flirting when her skirt blew up, she slapped Toji and noted it was the viewing price. Though she did add that it was "a small charge" hinting at how highly she thinks of herself (narcissism) but she didn't want him to look either way (histrionic).

Histrionics are also noted for being especially nice to figures of authority and in power. Asuka very often questions Misato - to my recollection.

Sorrow wrote:As for the histrionic thing, well, histrionic itself seems wholly redundant.

It's not. But you clearly refuse to recognize the distinction even though it's very well-defined, and you're playing quote games to boot, so I'll just ignore you in future and be done with it.

Quote games? I quoted the point I mostly wanted to refute.

If you're referring to the naming, well I'm just amusing myself. Am I not allowed? I hadn't realised this was such a serious offense.

You took one of my comments, tried to twist it into me being inflexible and as a way to say "I won't argue with you because you're inherently wrong but you'll never admit it" when what you actually said was "I don't have a means of proving you wrong, so I'll pretend it needs no explanation and paint you as person not worth debating".

Sorrow wrote:You took one of my comments, tried to twist it into me being inflexible and as a way to say "I won't argue with you because you're inherently wrong but you'll never admit it" when what you actually said was "I don't have a means of proving you wrong, so I'll pretend it needs no explanation and paint you as person not worth debating".

There's nothing to prove, Sorrow. The two disorders are easily distinguished, and are recognized by practicing clinicians. If you refuse to recognize one of them that's on you, not me (and that is rather inflexible by any reasonable standard). All it takes is a look at their respective Wikipedia pages to see the differences are plain as day.

As for the histrionic thing, well, histrionic itself seems wholly redundant. - Opinion.

If a man were to exhibit the same behaviour, almost any psychiatrist would label him as a narcissist. - True.

You can't even read about Histrionic Personality Disorder without narcissism cropping up; - Also true.

It's essentially a female variant of a narcissist who uses sexual allure as a means to garner attention - in a nutshell. - Isn't it? Yes, it is.

So I can't say any of the above but you're allowed to say that "you can't be a narcissist if you hate yourself and think you're junk"?

That's ridiculous. You have a very thin grasp of a narcissist but are allowed to define it as such. I on the other hand am not allowed to do the same for histrionic personality disorder and offer my opinion on its validity?

Just because I don't see one of them as being truly valid, doesn't mean there isn't a debate to be had. It doesn't change our standing that you believe she is HPD and I believe her to be a narcissist. You're just using that as a way to dismiss what I say in my corner.

You're slipping.

Sorrow wrote:That's ridiculous. You have a very thin grasp of a narcissist but are allowed to define it as such. I on the other hand am not allowed to do the same for histrionic personality disorder and offer my opinion on its validity?

No, you're not. I'm using the terms as defined by the mental health community, and you're discarding one of them and stretching the other to mean anything you like. Why should I entertain your argument when you're making claims that are at odds with those of the the people actually using the terms in a professional capacity? What you're claiming here is simply wrong. And yet, instead of doing some investigation to learn why I'm saying that you instead just double down and continue to insist you have an argument. How do you expect me to react in the face of that? Why would anyone entertain such an argument?

Read the Wikipedia pages for both disorders. Read the citations provided, so you now it's not just a Wikipedia thing. These disorders are different, and Asuka fits one far more than the other (and HPD isn't defined by a sexual component, I don't even know where you're getting that. It's an element in some cases, but it's by no means necessary).

You're beyond belief. Narcissism is defined as simply as loving oneself? It's much, much more complex than that I'm afraid.

Bagheera wrote:I'm using the terms as defined by the mental health community, and you're discarding one of them and stretching the other to mean anything you like.

Hardly.

I know there are differences, I even argued against two points of the difference in histrionic personality disorder.

These two disorders are very alike, they're related in practically every way. It is thought that men who exhibit all these traits would be put into the narcissistic category and women are four times more likely to be diagnosed as such. Doesn't that in itself seem like a flaw?

Bagheera wrote:(and HPD isn't defined by a sexual component, I don't even know where you're getting that. It's an element in some cases, but it's by no means necessary).

It's quite a major part of it.

I'm not here to argue with you the validity of this disorder in any case; you're the one who started this and are just doing so to use my comment and go off on a tangent thus avoid everything else I pointed out to you.

Considering the differences--that I am aware of, and have displayed as such--I still stand she is a narcissist.

Sorrow wrote:You're beyond belief. Narcissism is defined as simply as loving oneself? It's much, much more complex than that I'm afraid.

I never said otherwise. You're the who's oversimplifying here, since you're claiming the disorders are essentially identical. You can think that if you like, but for my part I'll note that they are recognized as distinct and compare what we know of Asuka to the symptoms listed for each. And when I do that I find that Asuka displays all but one trait in one case and roughly half in the other. At that point the argument's done as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, not that it's particularly relevant, but Asuka does display a fair bit of inappropriate sexual behavior in the show. A certain boat trip comes to mind, as do her efforts to make a man twice her age accept her as a girlfriend. That's about as inappropriate as it gets.

She's histrionic, no question. She's practically a textbook case, same as Shinji with avoidant and Rei with schizoid.

I agree with Shinji's and Rei's diagnosis - not Asuka's. I may be guilty of oversimplifying histrionic personality disorder, but you're to be charged with not understanding narcissism.

Let's take this from the approach that I never said "It's practically the same thing" and go through the differences.

but first:-

Bagheera wrote:not that it's particularly relevant, but Asuka does display a fair bit of inappropriate sexual behavior in the show. A certain boat trip comes to mind, as do her efforts to make a man twice her age accept her as a girlfriend. That's about as inappropriate as it gets.

I already made a point of this and wrote:Asuka doesn't use sex for attention, she uses sex as a means to validate an image of herself in her own mind. The "woman" Asuka.

Histrionics do so for the attention it gains them - like exhibitionism that some are known for. Asuka on the other hand is doing it for her own sense of self image. It ties in with:

What I also wrote:she's not even overtly sexual. Instead of enjoying praise that may have come her way and flirting when her skirt blew up, she slapped Toji and noted it was the viewing price. Though she did add that it was "a small charge" hinting at how highly she thinks of herself (narcissism) but she didn't want him to look either way (histrionic).

So you tell me what other histrionic traits you think she possesses, distinct from narcissism, and I will either agree with you or refute them. Despite what you may think of me, I'm not the type to argue even if I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Sorrow wrote:I agree with Shinji's and Rei's diagnosis - not Asuka's. I may be guilty of oversimplifying histrionic personality disorder, but you're to be charged with not understanding narcissism.

And odd charge to make, since I never said anything about it apart from the fact it requires some degree of self-love and that it doesn't fit Asuka. Seems to me you have no way of knowing how I understand it.

Histrionics do so for the attention it gains them - like exhibitionism that some are known for.

And how do you think validating that image would work? The attention from Kaji is the validation. That's why it has to come from him and not the other boys at school. If she was a narcissist she'd be eating up their attention with a spoon, but instead she actively disdains it. There's a reason for that.

So you tell me what other histrionic traits you think she possesses, distinct from narcissism, and I will either agree with you or refute them.

I really don't see the point. The way I see it I have hit the nail on the head, and I've explained why. If you don't agree at this point you don't.

Bagheera wrote:And odd charge to make, since I never said anything about it apart from the fact it requires some degree of self-love and that it doesn't fit Asuka. Seems to me you have no way of knowing how I understand it.

Don't down play what you said:-

Bagheera wrote:You can't be a narcissist if you hate yourself and think you're junk.

Because: yes, yes you can.

Bagheera wrote:And how do you think validating that image would work? The attention from Kaji is the validation. That's why it has to come from him and not the other boys at school. If she was a narcissist she'd be eating up their attention with a spoon, but instead she actively disdains it. There's a reason for that.

Because she views him as a man and them as boys, she wants the man to validate her as being a woman. It's not about attention, it's more than that. It's about her own perception of herself. If she was histrionic she'd eat it up from anyone that would throw it at her; it doesn't conflict with her own sense of self that way.

Bagheera wrote:I really don't see the point. The way I see it I have hit the nail on the head, and I've explained why. If you don't agree at this point you don't.

Well that's fine, because I really can't be bothered with this. If you want to stop then we can stop; however, I'm not about to let you have the last word, that you want so badly, where you simply state you've got it right, ergo I haven't.