Is the Eva universe ruined for you?

[Azathoth]

This is in the running for one of the most clever things ever written on EGF.

says a lot about EGF, really

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[Reichu]

God forbid someone doesn't change a wiki page within two weeks of a foreign, largely non-translated film coming out.

The locals have already encoded 3.0 into tropes on the rest of the page, so... (Plus what Seele00 said.)

[chaosakita]

The locals have already encoded 3.0 into tropes on the rest of the page, so... (Plus what Seele00 said.)

It's fucking TVTropes. What do you expect from them? People who insert random disjointed trope examples into articles aren't the same ones doing the writeups.

[LiLi]

Fast forward to 2007: Happily Married and as rich (and respected) as Steven Spielberg, Anno decides to revisit the most popular and influential anime franchise of the past decade — but without the depression influencing the story. Anno makes plans to re-tell the story of the Evangelion saga by giving his Byronic Hero cast a second chance (literally or figuratively), making them somewhat more emotionally stable, and giving them hope and light at the end of the tunnel. (He also snags a massive theatrical budget to help his plan become a reality.)

I for one do not remember any of that being in Anno's manifesto or declaration of intents...

This said, I didn't personally find Q to be, say, as 'gloomy' as EoE... The confusing but spectacular battle scenes also do provide some balance for the more introspective ones for me, I guess.

[soul.assassin]

Compared to the originals these new Eva movies are extremely linear and shallow like FF13....

TL&DR;.[/spoiler]

In a sentence... No, and 3.0 just broke the damn meter and took the whole franchise upside down... and I like it.

[Mr. Tines]

I don't know where the happier story delusion came from, given that we had VA interviews from soon into Q's production about it being much darker.

Admittedly, everyone's take-away from Ha seemed to focus on its frivolity outside of the battle scenes (and even then there was the ROW ROW FIGHT THA POWAA! crew spinning it positively); so maybe the bar for "darker" wasn't being set very high.

If I had the video release of Q in my hands today, the things that would make me hesitate from watching it would be

• Shinji being even more a weapons-grade bell-end than he was in EoE
  
• The feeling that I ought to watch Ha and all its [s]mis-[/s] re-characterizations first
  
• the usual one of trying to fit a 100m slot into the day

[Xard]

Xard, I will not go off topic and bring SKU into the Eva Q forum of all places.

No need to. I just don't like people throwing around vague criticisms which on face value make their opinions inconsistent.

This is why I don't dismiss Macross 7 with likes of general and vague "it goes against [supposed] spirit of original" or "the plot isn't Macross at all!" because exactly same criticisms (if it had anything worthwhile going for it to begin with which is not the case) applies to parts of franchise I do like. If I want to avoid intellectual inconsistency - which I can't stand - I need to be more specific and devise actual arguments rather than way too broad, uninteresting dismissals based on whatever mental construct of how Macross is "supposed to be" like.

Ditto for Eva.


As usual I want actual arguments to assess - which you do give later. Ignoring the ones Bagheera already commented on and what's left is this:

5) Kaworu, fully capable of taking the choke bomb off Shinji, but then wears the item himself instead of disposing of it like any thinking being would do.

I really shouldn't even need to write this first part but given how dumb NME is supposed to be in comparison to original: the choker is first of all a symbolic device representing Shinji's burden and sins thematically (it's as much a motif as the infamous casset player is) and Kaworu taking it on himself is instance of Kaworu taking on Shinji's sins and literally dying for their sake. Kaworu's plenty Jesus in original but it's in 3.0 they really run away with the concept. You can't throw away burden of sin as if it were irrelevant trash but you can give 'em up for Albino Space Jesus. It's either him or Kaworu who's going to take them on.


This is of course first and foremost something belonging to (blatant) subtext but it makes sense from character perspective too - because this sin thing is pretty much how Shinji views the collar. For biggest part of 3.0 Shinji is dealing with denialism what he has caused. It's a sign of his lingering affinity to Misato and her words that he can't bring himself to just throw the collar away. It's ambivalent thing to Shinji just like SDAT was in how it was both escape from reality as well as link to harshest part of it, his father for whom his feelings were notoriously mixed.

Likewise Shinji is ambivalent about accusations directed at him, Misato etc. but he can't just shrug them off and on deep level he does feel responsible (that's his motivation for finale after all). It really is Kaworu in his magical space jebubness about whom Shinji feels like he can let to take the "burden" for now. (I'm pretty sure had Kaworu just dumped the choker into trash can Shinji would've thrown a hissyfit about it)


As for Kaworu for him there was always two options and the goal of both was the same: take away Shinji's burden. Either this would be done through literally undoing his fuckup (and thus sins) or if everything goes to hell it'll be him who'll die in his stead - thus playing the Jesus part to a tee.

Nothing about Shinji's mental state points to option of just dumping the choker away. It doesn't make any sense if one just thinks of it as a bomb but when one remembers what it clearly means to him (and looking at dialogue this comes up almost explicitly) keeping the choker makes sense.

Ditto for Kaworu's actions who still acts in the space jesus level of motivations like he always does. He fully knows what the thing represents for Shinji and thus throwing choker to trash can is no option - especially when taking on his sins is a point he wants to make.

So no, this isn't example of nonsensical character behaviour or plot holes either. You don't have to like it but it's not a non-sequitur.


I agree with Bagheera all in all:

We have both. They don't go away just because you say they do.

(I'd go point by point on the rest, but it's meaningless. As I said, this reads like you're justifying hate rather than pointing out legitimate criticisms of the film. And I say that as someone who has some serious criticisms of his own to speak of!)

I don't really care if you like NME or not (or Q in particular) but what I do care about are if the arguments given carry any weight. In my eyes they don't. Perhaps there are other legitimate points of complaint - the stuff I've heard about confusing action would seem to point at possibility that Anno hasn't really got the choreography part done as well as in 2.0 - but ones you raised are both uninteresting and moot and seem more a rationalisation for negative emotional reaction than anything else.


The Curse of Eva thing may end up being nothing more than excuse to retain old character designs (keeping strikers in mind not complaining :P) but as of now it's impossible to tell - and even in that case it's not flaw enough to sink the ship on its own.

[Bagheera]

I don't really care if you like NME or not (or Q in particular) but what I do care about are if the arguments given carry any weight. In my eyes they don't. Perhaps there are other legitimate points of complaint - the stuff I've heard about confusing action would seem to point at possibility that Anno hasn't really got the choreography part done as well as in 2.0 - but ones you raised are both uninteresting and moot and seem more a rationalisation for negative emotional reaction than anything else.

I think there are some worth discussing, though. For example:

-- The deal with 3I seems to be a bait and switch. In Break we're told it's "near-3I", but in Q it seems clear it was 3I. If it wasn't, why call the next event 4I? If it's near-3I because it didn't run to its conclusion why isn't 2I called "near-2I"? Naturally Anno probably didn't know he was going this route while making Break, but I still feel like the whole thing is a bit of a retcon in some pretty significant ways.

-- The complete reversal for Shinji leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In Break he was derpish but active, and now he's been kicked in the teeth not for the things he knew and did (i.e., the fact he acted heedless of the consequences, the fact he was a selfish git, the fact he treated Rei as a hugpillow rather than a person, the fact he did this after leaving her to rot before deciding to come back, etc) but rather for things he could not have reasonably foreseen. it seems artificial. And then there's the fact he goes back to his father after so much is made of his betrayal in Break, and the fact he broke with Misato, Asuka, and Toji's sister in the process. Yes, two of those were angry with him, but so what? They're still the only family he has in the world, so hopping on board with Rei at a moment's notice feels both forced and dissonant.

-- The worldbuilding leaves a lot to be desired. The primary motivation behind building the Evas (from the world's perspective, not Seele's or Gendo's) was fighting the Angels, but after Zeruel they seem to have fizzled. So what's the justification for making more Evas, let alone a flying battleship fleet? And for that matter, how does a flying battleship have anything to do with making the oceans blue? On Gendo's side, who the heck is making these things? All we hear about is Gendo, Fuyu, Rei and Kaworu. Who's doing all the grunt work? Who's bankrolling all of this? And what story is Gendo telling them to make it all happen?

-- On a related note, many details are left unexplained. What narrative or thematic purpose does the "curse of Eva" serve? Why is Unit 02 cybered up when we know Evas can heal? How is it Wille had time to come up with a bomb collar for Shinji but didn't have time to tell him what his father was doing and why? Why did Wille break from Gendo to begin with?[1] Why is Gendo so keen to get Shinji back, and yet content to abandon Yui? I'm sure some of this will be addressed in Final, but a lot of it is important stuff that IMO should have been addressed sooner rather than later.

[1]Breaking from Seele is logical, given the detention and all, but why Gendo? I'm pretty sure Gendo's plan isn't "wreck the world". In fact, given that it involved bringing Shinji and Rei together it's probably something like NemZ's good end for EoTV. But if that's so why does everyone oppose it? Why does Kaworu support it, given that his goal is to make Shinji happy? Why is none of this adequately communicated to Shinji, either by Wille or Fuyu?

-- I'm disappointed (again) by the fact that Asuka and Mari haven't been fleshed out. What purpose do they even serve in the narrative at this point? This was bad enough when things were compressed in Break, but given the 14 year timeskip it's a real problem. I feel like the setup in the first two movies has been completely abandoned, and while there might have been good reasons for this all the abandoned plot threads smack of bad storytelling.

And so on. None of this makes Q bad or a disaster or anything, because by all accounts it tells the story it wants to tell beautifully. But it doesn't seem to fit very well with the story we've been told up to this point. It just seems like there's a lot of heavy lifting needed to make this short of shift work, and I don't see evidence that Anno really did it. But I dunno, maybe it will make more sense in hindsight, or when we get the missing history filled it at whatever point. As was the case with Break I'm on the fence until I see what comes next.

[Ramiel²]

I think there are some worth discussing, though. For example:

Wall of Text

I wholeheartly agree with your Post.
Anno has to resolve many issues with 4.0 to make the Story Narratively sense. It FEELS like its to much but untill we see it we cant be sure.
As for now we should try to enjoy 3.0 for what it is..

EDIT: Is the Forum only unstable for me or is Evageeks really breaking down every minute now and then?

[Xard]

That's more like it! These complaints are much better and while I don't agree with many and with many more I'm undecided (a lot of this will depend on Final and given how intertwined 3.0 and Final seem to be despite not being double feature anymore I don't think these are issues relevant for criticizing Q, either they'll be answered in Final or they end up as shortcomings of NME as a whole) a couple of answers:

-- The deal with 3I seems to be a bait and switch. In Break we're told it's "near-3I", but in Q it seems clear it was 3I. If it wasn't, why call the next event 4I? If it's near-3I because it didn't run to its conclusion why isn't 2I called "near-2I"? Naturally Anno probably didn't know he was going this route while making Break, but I still feel like the whole thing is a bit of a retcon in some pretty significant ways.

They seem to use both near-3I and 3I terminology (though I should check out finished scripts now that we have them). This isn't really a sign of retcon or problem in the narrative though, at most it is case of shitty terminology and given Eva's obnoxious history with that I'm letting it pass.

It looks like the Global Catastrophe(tm) part of 2.0's Third Impact is still a unknown. But this really is a question of Impact Mechanics anyway and both are feasible (though local catastrophe is more plausible reading in light of everything and it's not like the film needs more than that) given 2.0.

At most we can make a case that Anno didn't depict effects of 3I in 2.0 well enough because instead of LOLAPOCALYPSE focus was on Shinji's actions and character emotions - but going to retcon tier is going too far.

And then there's the fact he goes back to his father after so much is made of his betrayal in Break, and the fact he broke with Misato, Asuka, and Toji's sister in the process.

Not really touchin on Shinji here (I gotta appreciate the fact we have MC that seemingly manages to create new controversies with every move he has pulled since 1995, regardless of continuity ) but Shinji was forced to get over his "I won't pilot again dad is asshole" tantrum over by end of 2.0 already, just like he did in eps 18-19. Bardiel incident isn't permanent cap stone or resolution to his relationship with Gendo. Never was, never will be. I'm liking what they're doing with Shinji sniveling in Gendo's feet (metaphorically) here. In original Shinji just, uhh, kept breaking down for remainder of show and further developing his relationship with Gendo got sidetracked by everything else.

-- The worldbuilding leaves a lot to be desired. The primary motivation behind building the Evas (from the world's perspective, not Seele's or Gendo's) was fighting the Angels, but after Zeruel they seem to have fizzled. So what's the justification for making more Evas, let alone a flying battleship fleet? And for that matter, how does a flying battleship have anything to do with making the oceans blue? On Gendo's side, who the heck is making these things? All we hear about is Gendo, Fuyu, Rei and Kaworu. Who's doing all the grunt work? Who's bankrolling all of this? And what story is Gendo telling them to make it all happen?

The everyday setting part of the world was never Eva's strong point or focus TBH. Tokyo-3 feels like isolated pseudocity in original - a bit less so in 2.0 but it's gone now too. With that so is the reason to focus on the "world" at large.

The utter "isolation" part of the setting and in terms of cast portrayed is most definetly intentional move and one I like a lot. As far as Eva is concerned Tokyo-3 = the world and now that Tokyo-3 is gone there's no reason to spend much time on rest of the world that has ever existed in very shallow sense in Evaverse anyway.

SEELE and NERV are even more powerful in post-3I world than before it seems and so building more Evas (then again this seems to be much smaller deal than in original anyway) should be no problem in particular. If there's a deterrent needed only thing SEELE or NERV would need to do is make a convincing case for UN big guys more Angels will come sooner or later. They already had one 14 year long pause between so why presume they won't be coming again even if they're quiet for a while?

So really, those parts of setting are as (un)problematic as they've ever been.

That we don't see the grunts of Gendo's Neo-NERV is a question of film's style and focus and not a sign they don't exist. They're frankly unrelevant for the story being told and as such leaving them out is a move I appreciate a lot. The "empty" atmosphere in 3.0 is something I'm already a fan of.

It would not be first time Anno uses such solipstic focus in setting that obviously bustles with life by the way. Shiki Jitsu is set in heavily industrialized urban town (Anno's home town in fact) but due to choice of scenes, setting and timing for most part we only ever see Director and the Girl.

3.0 being similarly empty world sans the key players of the storyline is similar and as far as storytelling tricks goes it's one I personally like a lot. It builds mood wonderfully and trims away excessive "fat" that isn't important for telling the story.

Wille etc. are Final issues because they're NOT the focus here.

-- I'm disappointed (again) by the fact that Asuka and Mari haven't been fleshed out. What purpose do they even serve in the narrative at this point? This was bad enough when things were compressed in Break, but given the 14 year timeskip it's a real problem. I feel like the setup in the first two movies has been completely abandoned, and while there might have been good reasons for this all the abandoned plot threads smack of bad storytelling.

I'll get to Asuka elsewhere (I have no problems with her portrayal in Rebuild) but as of now I'd say bringing in Mari in 2.0 was the one big mistake for that film and for Rebuild as a whole. Not RUINED FOREVER level of mistake but mistake nonetheless. Whether her character has any big value or purpose will be for 4.0 to decide.

For now the obvious course would be for Mari and Kaji having worked for Wille (or its predecessor) all the way back in 2.0 days. This would be really neat move and explain a lot and tie many seeming loose ends as well as justify bringing Mari in 2.0

People on Wille side are on purpose out of focus in 3.0 these questions, like so much else, will need to wait for Final. Based on my recent rewatch of first two films I'm a lot more confident of there being things Anno planned to do from start, despite all the improvisation and shifts.

Wille-like organization being part of those plans to begin with won't surprise me.

As for bomb collar thing: obviously they had one ready before they went to save Shinji. That they never got to explain shit to Shinji comes more down to typical Evaesque communication failure (particularly from Misato's end) that they don't get over before Rei comes and ruins the day. Given more time I'm sure Misato would've got to it but I'm not blaming her for being too overcome by emotions at that point to really go at it with Shinji, esp. since it would summon unfortunate memories on her part too.


Most of the things you bring up will depend on Final one way or another, IMO, and don't reflect on Q as a film right now which is what I care about.

[Reichu]

Can we not make this a potpourri thread, please?

[Xard]

Yeah, sorry about that. Most of Bagheera's issues should go to other threads if they're to be discussed. Though to be honest nearly all of them will depend on Final one way or another (particularly Wille stuff that form most of his post in my eyes) and as such are unanswerable one way or another. Which, again, is a reason why they're not "strikes" against Q in any way. They would be if Q had simply failed to convey necessary information for telling the story but most of those (like Asuka and Mari in all) are delibirately not part of Q's storyline. If they end up dealt satisfactorily: good for NME as a whole. If not: bad for NME as a whole. But flaws of Q itself they ain't.


Perhaps the most "Q-criticism" is comment on people not telling crucial information to Shinji but I think that too, while obv. gimmick needed to convey both the story and the audience-is-as-confused-as-shinji deal, is done pretty well. Misato probably has plenty of regrets of her own over her failures as guardian'/commander (hey smartass, who was telling him to go forward?) and rest feel just as uneasy about him. For now they did what was absolutely necessary but they were too driven by their emotions to explain in detail why Shinji sucks. Can't really blame them: live 14 years in a world ruined further by the guy and then when he finally "comes aroun" again he's going all "bhuhh I dun do nuthin' wrong" on you and just try not to be irritated with him. That Misato was unable to blow Shinji into bits just shows her feelings towards Shinji are more complex some credit them for.

Misato et al have their lot to do in Final. They would've got to it in Q already if it wasn't for the whole "Rei busting Shinji out" before they finished with him thing.

edit:

from the Hayashibara interview

This Rei is a different Rei, so I voiced her as being indifferent. When I asked Anno-san "What's going on in the scene with the multiplying Reis?" he gave me a clear answer which I can't disclose here, but Director Tsurumaki and other staff were super shocked. Later on, they said, "Thank you. We were able to understand a lot thanks to listening to that recording session." Their comment made me think, "Anno-san's craftsmanship is really something." That's what I found most impressive about the whole thing. (laughs)

fffffsssssss

I fucking knew this. I suspected this already at the time of 2.0 CRC translations and rewatches of 1.0 and 2.0 deepened the impression but that sly old bastard really is keeping a lot stuff and plans to himself. While details of the storyline etc. have probably gone through thousand mutations during NME's production (esp. if 3.0 was indeed first scrapped once and started all over) I think many Big Things about settei that only start to become clear now during 3.0 have been planned since start.

[gorgeousshutin]

Xard wrote:
the choker is first of all a symbolic device representing Shinji's burden and sins thematically (it's as much a motif as the infamous casset player is) and Kaworu taking it on himself is instance of Kaworu taking on Shinji's sins and literally dying for their sake.

Then, can Q's writers not display all this drama and symbolism in such a way that can allow Kaworu to behave like a thinking person when faced with the (ridiculous) choker bomb? Are the writers so inadequate, that dumb-ing down a character in a blatantly unreal manner is the only way they can make drama flow?

I'm fine with the idea of Kaworu sacrificing himself for Shinji, but via such a contrived manner? It degrades Q's ending into one of cheap melodrama, when it could've been so much more effectively moving.

If you ask me, even making the choken bomb one impossible to remove, then have Kaworu body-swap with Shinji (via angel power), then dying, would be less idiotic that making Kaworu don it for no reason other than his "must-die" at the end of the movie.

And, it's now 14 yrs past NME's already high-tech 2015 . . . surely an implanted, irremovable device into Shinji's body (his brain even, to detect his emotions/thoughts while they're at it) would serve Misato's purpose better than just some choker bomb? Or is Ritsuko's science team incapable of even that?

Kaworu can "take on Shinji's sin/burden" in at least 10 other different ways that does not involve he or Shinji getting unrealistically dumb-ed down. It's lazy, ill-planned writing that results in the ill-used, prominently featured choker bomb (one that should not have existed beyond the '60s sci-fi scene), there's no excusing it.

Bagheera wrote:
-- I'm disappointed (again) by the fact that Asuka and Mari haven't been fleshed out. What purpose do they even serve in the narrative at this point? This was bad enough when things were compressed in Break, but given the 14 year timeskip it's a real problem.

It's a problem made even more obvious when combined with the unexplained "Curse of Eva" fanservice teen bodies.

If people want to embrace a work with blatantly unrealistic, unfleshed-out, hole-filled plot and character as being entertaining, it's fine. But to insist that the obvious creative flaws are examples of artistic competence, to the point of attacking others pointing out the flaws, is just plain ridiculous.

[Bagheera]

Then, can Q's writers not display all this drama and symbolism in such a way that can allow Kaworu to behave like a thinking person when faced with the (ridiculous) choker bomb?

Why? He would die one way or the other so I don't see how the details really matter.

It's a problem made even more obvious when combined with the unexplained "Curse of Eva" fanservice teen bodies.

Not really. The two are largely unrelated.

[gorgeousshutin]

Bagheera wrote:
Why? He would die one way or the other so I don't see how the details really matter.

How about story presentation - that which makes a good story good? A well-presented story, even one of mundane events, makes for a serious work. Inversely speaking, even a set of riveting events, when presented in a dogged, hole-filled manner, will make for a poor work.

Not really. The two are largely unrelated.

We'll agree to disagree on this one.

[Bagheera]

How about story presentation - that which makes a good story good?

By all accounts it seemed to work quite well in this regard. In fact, it seems to me that you're ignoring story as a whole in favor of getting hung up on details.

[JoeD80]

Kaworu to behave like a thinking person

He's an Angel, not a thinking person.

If you ask me, even making the choken bomb one impossible to remove

It was impossible to remove. Sakura Suzuhara tells Shinji "that's not coming off." Kaworu is the only one who could remove it.

[gorgeousshutin]

By all accounts it seemed to work quite well in this regard.

Agree to disagree.

[Xard]

I'm fine with the idea of Kaworu sacrificing himself for Shinji, but via such a contrived manner?

If I couldn't deal with or like contrived drama I wouldn't be Eva fan in the first place. Actually if one is strict about it one can describe most plot driven drama as contrived and this definetly holds for NGE in all its versions. This is why I find it funny people complain about Asuka ending up in Eva-03 as example of plot device because Toji ending up in one is nothing more.

It degrades Q's ending into one of cheap melodrama, when it could've been so much more effectively moving.

Well, I for one was this time around moved by it just reading about it and seeing bawwling pig Shinji in trailer. Can't say as much about whole ep 24.

If you ask me, even making the choken bomb one impossible to remove, then have Kaworu body-swap with Shinji (via angel power), then dying, would be less idiotic that making Kaworu don it for no reason other than his "must-die" at the end of the movie.

Kaworu takes on the thing to convince Shinji pilot. It's his way of saying he'll take the responsibility for what's going to happen and his sins and he should trust him. Kaworu's plans never was to have the thing go off. That was the unfortunate consequence of his plan going to hell etc. and he was prepared for it - but that's different from planning it to happen.

Again, throwing the collar away is hardly a way to take responsibility for Shinji, that's ignoring it - and man, seki ni toru is like at very heart of Japanese ethics in general.

Also, if Kaworu can body swap Shinji (lol) what exactly would then make it "impossible to remove"?

And, it's now 14 yrs past NME's already high-tech 2015 . . . surely an implanted, irremovable device into Shinji's body (his brain even, to detect his emotions/thoughts while they're at it) would serve Misato's purpose better than just some choker bomb? Or is Ritsuko's science team incapable of even that?

yeah, and maybe they also could've deviced some sort of quantum magic bomb that destroys all Eva units and SEELE members from afar or at least a teleport to make sneak attacks on NERV possible. Damnit Ritsuko!

(one that should not have existed beyond the '60s sci-fi scene)

Funny you say this because Eva actually is Ultraman sequel and so full of retro-elements the collar thing wouldn't be out of place at all

It's a problem made even more obvious when combined with the unexplained "Curse of Eva" fanservice teen bodies.

In worst case scenario Curse of Eva when it's nothing more than this that still is hardly a big issue or ship sunker. If one can't stand fanservice one shouldn't be fan of any GAINAX show to begin with.

If people want to embrace a work with blatantly a) unrealistic, b) unfleshed-out, c) hole-filled plot and character as being entertaining, it's fine. But to insist that the obvious creative flaws are examples of artistic competence, to the point of attacking others pointing out the flaws, is just plain ridiculous.

but

a) you keep using that word and it doesn't mean what you think it means. NGE's cast has "emotional realism" which is broad ill-defined category that is reachable by even the most contrived, out there fictional characters. In more literally realistic, naturalist sense Eva characters have never cut it nor they should.

b) NGE Shinji is not significantly "deeper" than NME Shinji in any fashion. NME Kaworu is already a lot more developed than his series counterpart ever was.

c) at this point there are no clear plot holes in NME that cannot be answered by Final. This is probably more one can say about NGE. Sure, it's possible NME will end up as even worse mess but we're not living in future.