Is the Eva universe ruined for you?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Xard
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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 pm

On the contrary, the Eva universe itself is even more interesting because they're pursuing the SF angle far more seriously and they're taking the franchise into new places - namely how Shinji does/should react after causing Third Impact which is post-EoE scenario. While I don't believe in sequel theory literally in many ways this actually does make NME a "continuation" of original and explores genuinely new ground instead of being utterly trite retelling.


As for "depth", lol. NME is a SF narrative and as such more traditional way to make same points NGE ultimately made too. Only difference is the execution which could be accurately described as more nuanced and artistically daring in NGE but it's not that the themes themselves are any deeper or shallower in NME.


Eva never was philosophy - it was pedantry, as Anno put it. The core and genuine "depth" of Eva beyond said pedantry stays the same.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby chee » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:20 pm

SPOILER: Show
"Show, don't tell."

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:30 pm

View Original Postchee wrote:
SPOILER: Show
"Show, don't tell."



I really don't mind it given how well it fits the narrative style of the show as a whole (at that point) but it kinda shows Anno is fan of Tomino's when Asuka just can't shut the fuck up about exactly what bugs her so deeply in the whole 22-24 episode range :lol:
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

chee
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Postby chee » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:33 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:shows Anno is fan of Tomino's


Jeebus, do not get me started on when Anno is in "tell" mode.

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:40 pm

View Original Postchee wrote:Jeebus, do not get me started on when Anno is in "tell" mode.


I think i know what you mean :lol:

I'm as big fan as always of Anno's drill-into-your-skull-and-crack-it-open-bluntness because I think usually it carries enormous weight and power, esp. when it dovetails nicely with more subtle methods of portrayal (NGE is great with this but Shiki Jitsu is at least as good with Shunji Iwai's laconic and detached beyond belief performance style combined with moments of revelaing inner monologuing) on the side but yeah, Anno is hardly subtle with his storytelling.

Funnily enough Rebuild contains some of the more subtle sequences in Eva of any kind like the "Tokyo-3 in the morning" sequence that plays with Man Who Stole the Sun subtext or how Shinji's decision to return pilot Eva-01 against Zeruel is achieved purely visually.


Even when he is blunt as a hammer he lacks the "out of place retardness" that is another apex that defines Tomino's can't shut the fuck up writing style so I rate him quite bit higher :lol:
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Jayfive » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:43 pm

View Original Postchee wrote:Jeebus, do not get me started on when Anno is in "tell" mode.


AKA Rebuild!Ritsuko :P

OP: There is no Eva universe. Theres an Eva multi-verse. Of which Rebuild is one universe.

Being that I was a Transformers fan as a kid (original G1 comics in a pile to the left as I type) multiple continuities are something you have to get used to.

Just because the Bayformers films are appalling doesnt affect my appreciation of other continuities. As this is so with Eva. Except that Rebuild is many things, but appalling isnt one of them.

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:45 pm

View Original PostJayfive wrote:AKA Rebuild!Ritsuko :P


Nah, that's just genre convention she follows just as eagerly in original NGE. Technobabble commentary is running feature of these genres
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:46 pm

View Original PostJayfive wrote:Just because the Bayformers films are appalling doesnt affect my appreciation of other continuities. As this is so with Eva. Except that Rebuild is many things, but appalling isnt one of them.


It's funny you should bring this up, since in fact Bayformers is exactly congruent in function and intent to Rebuild, albeit rather less subtle in its treatment of its audience - and Rebuild is kind of taking a turn in the same openly contemptuous direction, anyway.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:48 pm

Not surprised this view comes from Jersey.

JK

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:48 pm

Given that I'm not really into Transformers and have only ever seen couple of episodes of old animation as a kid (and suffered halfway through two of Bay's films) mind opening up the comparison a bit?
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Darkwing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:02 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:I really don't mind it given how well it fits the narrative style of the show as a whole (at that point) but it kinda shows Anno is fan of Tomino's when Asuka just can't shut the fuck up about exactly what bugs her so deeply in the whole 22-24 episode range :lol:


Though Tomino hates Eva.

Is Eva ruined forever? Depends on wether or not Sadamoto hooks Shinji and Rei up in the Manga.

All kidding aside, Probably not. Eva is a cash cow franchise now. Even after this stuff is going to get made. I'm not nearly as excited about actually seeing 3.0 now as I was with 2.0. I'll probably Netflix it first before deciding if I want to spend actual money on buying it. And how 4.0 plays out will also affect things.

I feel that their are two kinds of Eva fans. The two groups like different things, and enjoy different parts about Eva. The first group likes the designs, the charecters, and the kids fighting monsters with giant robots plot that has more depth than usual. They look forward to finding out what is actually going on. Generally they tend to prefer the first half. This is not to say they don't get or understand the second half. They just don't like it.

The other kind are the ones who like the darker parts. The brutal deconstruction of the charecters, the psychological themes, trying to figure out what it means. There the ones who prefer the end of the series.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:02 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Given that I'm not really into Transformers and have only ever seen couple of episodes of old animation as a kid (and suffered halfway through two of Bay's films) mind opening up the comparison a bit?


I'm not much involved with TF fandom myself, but in general the TF series began with the wellbeloved Transformers (G1) show, took a detour into the grimdark and bizarre with Transformers: The Movie, and then dropped off the face of the earth for everyone other than fans until getting a big-budget movie-series reworking in the mid-2000s. The thesis of these movies is essentially that the heroes of the original story are monsters (Bay's Optimus Prime, in particular, is a face-ripping, lying fascist) and that the audience of that story is composed of manchildren who need to fucking shut up about giant robots. Bay, being Bay, is much more cruel and satirically inclined than Anno (so much so that the fact that Bayformers is, indeed, a satire in the vein of Verhoeven's Starship Troopers appears to have been missed by quite a few) but it's difficult to avoid thinking of the two together.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:09 pm

The Eva universe is vastly rejuvenated to me. My fandom spirit is on fire, I want to write a 14 year gap story and make it into a manga. Can't draw, no time.

As for linear and shallow not quite feeling it. Though the dialogue I'm reading leaves me a bit mystified, especially Shinji's comprehensive and deductive skills (lack thereof).
Shinji embraces the otaku empowerment fantasy and dives headfirst into his mother's basement. -Chrad
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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:10 pm

Ahh, I see. Well, forgive my skepticism but I doubt that whatever Anno does in Final it can show greater, uhh, contempt for audience than EoE.

Though what really gets me is suggestion Bay can into devilish subtexts like that intentionally. Really?

View Original PostDarkwing wrote:Though Tomino hates Eva.


Well yeah and he's one crazy old coot too. I'm almost convinced that creating succesful mecha franchise requires you to be "off" one way or another. Tomino is just messed in head and enough angry geezer to draw even Ishihara's jealousy, Anno is ex-self imposed autist otaku and Kawamori would probably be writing mystical literature in Tibet and running his own Earth Cult organization if he didn't happen to like designing mechas (with lego blocks) too much.

The guy behind Votoms is the exception that seems to prove the rule as he seems to be eminently, uhh, normal guy.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:22 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Ahh, I see. Well, forgive my skepticism but I doubt that whatever Anno does in Final it can show greater, uhh, contempt for audience than EoE.


Doesn't quite count because Anno is himself included in that contempt, while Bayformers (and for that matter Q by the sound of it) remain firmly in the camp of "look at you faggots".

View Original PostXard wrote:Though what really gets me is suggestion Bay can into devilish subtexts like that intentionally. Really?


uhhh...yeah? Bay is not a stupid man; he just thinks you're stupid, and has no qualms about saying so. There's a hilarious and ongoing thread on the SA film forum (might be paywalled at the moment) in which the themes of Bayformers are discussed at very great length (with some truly EGF-worthy wank thrown in; the words "Megatron's vagina" will haunt my brain for years to come). Prevailing perception of Bayformers films (and in fact pretty much all of Bay's movies) is that they're "dumb" and meaningless because that is a lot easier to accept than the alternative possibility, which is that the movie does have a meaning and (it is almost impossible to avoid this reading) that is "fuck you, fuck you, fuck you".

The fact that the constantly objectified and eventually written-out Megan Fox arm-candy of the worthless shlub protagonist is called "Mikaela Banes" should at the very least suggest that Michael Bay is not too dumb to grasp the notion of subtext.
Last edited by Azathoth on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Darkwing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:24 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Well yeah and he's one crazy old coot too. I'm almost convinced that creating succesful mecha franchise requires you to be "off" one way or another. Tomino is just messed in head and enough angry geezer to draw even Ishihara's jealousy, Anno is ex-self imposed autist otaku and Kawamori would probably be writing mystical literature in Tibet and running his own Earth Cult organization if he didn't happen to like designing mechas (with lego blocks) too much.

The guy behind Votoms is the exception that seems to prove the rule as he seems to be eminently, uhh, normal guy.


What about Go Nagai?

Something else to remember the Transformers fandom. Someone is always yelling "Ruined Forever". It may even be the origin of the term. I came up with a theory because of the Transformers Fandom. The more parts someone hates of a franchise, the bigger a fan they are.

But what is with Michael Bay and wierd little robots?
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby hui43210 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:25 pm

.... I like ff13...
Is the 3.0 spoiler policy gone?.... Cool, then I'm nominating myself as EvaGeeks 1# Sakura Suzuhara fan/nerd.

I mean, predictability is the central attraction and the narrative hook that we've all come to expect from the Evangelion franchise. How come Anno can't realize this? Twice? - FreakyFilmFan4ever

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:36 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:There's a hilarious and ongoing thread on the SA film forum (might be paywalled at the moment) in which the themes of Bayformers are discussed at very great length (with some truly EGF-worthy wank thrown in; the words "Megatron's vagina" will haunt my brain for years to come).


What the fuck am I reading.


Damnit Azathoth, if I keep reading these I'll probably end up watching the films to see how full of shit these rambles are (or aren't) :cringe:

View Original PostDarkwing wrote:What about Go Nagai?


Even by standards of weirdo anime creators* I think Nagai goes without saying. :hohum: :hohum:

King of Perverts would be well earned name I guess - or Hardener of Little Boy Penises following that one Anno interview

*I guess I should've counted Oshii too due to Patlabor. For Oshii I can't even come up with short nice summary like for others - reading his interviews is always interesting experience as guy organically shapeshifts from saying something intelligent to wildest bullshit ever with little reason or rhyme.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:42 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:What the fuck am I reading.


Oh great Azathoth, if I keep reading these I'll probably end up watching the films to see how full of shit these rambles are (or aren't) :cringe:


As you like, but I, having done something similar thanks to that thread, don't recommend it. Bay is a good enough filmmaker that he can make a grotesque, awful blockbuster that tears viciously into its characters, its ostensible message, and its audience; but unlike Verhoeven, Bay is not quite a good enough filmmaker to convert this notion into something other than a grotesque, awful blockbuster. The fact that the movies are not as "dumb" or as morally repugnant as they are often thought to be does not change the fact that they are bad movies.
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Postby chee » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:44 pm

I dunno, I just wish Oshii would go back to making movies, and not... whatever the hell you'd call his output after 2008

SPOILER: Show
no, Assault Girls does not count as a movie


EDIT: NO XARD DO NOT DO IT.

No bullshit, I actually got physically ill when I saw Bayformers 3: The Dark of the MooWHAT THE FUCK IS A DARK OF THE MOON YOU FORGOT FUCKING "SIDE" YOU PUCILANIMOUS MANCHILD FUCKCUNT


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