Asuka Langley Soryu: Long Analysis, HPD, Validation

[Bagheera]

It's not a browser thing, the forum just has a post size limit. Tines posted the rest in a separate post.

[pwhodges]

Ah, right. Missed that, because of the strange way this forum software lies when telling you what posts you've read.

[Mr. Tines]

Did people miss this post?

The original tumblr post got cut short by the post size limit, so here's the rest

[robersora]

Whoops, didn't intend to stir up a ruckus. I apologize.

[pwhodges]

As I said, the way this forum reports which posts you've read is highly unreliable, at least the way that use this (and all other) forum(s), and this makes it easy to miss posts if you don't read back in every thread you look at, which becomes really tedious. I presume this is an inherent feature of the extremely old version of phpBB that we're stuck with, and haven't otherwise commented on it because I presume there is nothing to be done which could help.

Also, I just read the original, so it didn't matter.

[Bagheera]

Hmmm; I've found the forum to be quite reliable, actually. Something like RPG.net is highly unreliable, since it routinely takes you to the most recent post and does not report a reply if someone on your ignore list replies to a thread (which means you can easily miss out on entire conversations before the forum bothers to get back to you). By contrast, EVG references specific posts in a thread, which IME is a highly reliable way of keeping you involved in a conversation; unless a post is deleted or you're following the threads on multiple platforms I haven't encountered any problems.

But then, I'm not very current when it comes to such things, so I might easily be missing the obvious.

[obliterates]

The original Asuka analysis must of sparked another analysis, this time on Kaji.

Here's the link to it.

I just finished reading this one. It's really detailed and this author mentioned a lot of stuff that I've never noticed till now.

[SEELE]

I think you're reading a lot into that essay that isn't really there. As I recall the word "misogynistic" is in there exactly once, and while I don't agree with its use there I didn't feel like the author was hating on Shinji in the rest of it.

I don't know where you're getting this, honestly. AFAICT Asuka is not particularly noteworthy in terms of willpower at all. All of the adults in the show far outclass her, and the notion that most of the rest of humanity couldn't manage what she did is absurd. She's a 14-year-old girl, man; how do you figure the typical stable adult won't a far more cohesive self-image than she does? They'll be coming back in droves if she's the benchmark for comparison.

SPOILER: Show

[url]http://fiendswithbenefits.tumblr.com/image/88578857762[/url]

First of all nice work for this essay. Good work.

For the first part: But she seems not to understand Shinji that good either. Shinji (like all of you) mentioned earllier is a self-hatred driven nihilistic 14-year old boy. And she stated out that Shinji objective Asuka from the beginning which is not true at all. She also missed out the actual talk with Hikari about Shinji, where she clearly admits the clueless behaviour with Shinji. Asuka knew that Shinji is a clueless puppy but the point is: she wanted him to want her. And that is why she is so disgusted with Shinji and not being happy about Kaji being around. She is griefing ... thats is a essential point of the AsuShin dynamic. Mondo Diao - Down in the past is a good way of telling the actual friend/relationship between them. He can live without her and the other way around but still they are talking. Asuka cuts Shinji obv. of as he tried to talk about the 4th Child. She cuts him off because she doesn't want to hear any of the boy that rejects her. She is clearly uncomfortable around Shinji because she see how much of a failure she is. This indicates the feelings from her side. She might have (since "magma diver") still a little bit faith for her Shinji but she is far more "calm" than she usually is. "You don't know who the 4th Child is" - she feared to tell him. Just like Misato feared it.

For the second part: I think Asuka didn't have a image of herself as Shinji where told about the "coming back from the LCL". Asuka is the least possible person to return. Why? Are you asking maybe. Because what did she have besides piloting (a shred into pieces eva) and being abusive?
Nothing. Not even her interactions with the people where sincere (E22 - "this isn't the real me"). The writer of this essay pointed it out pretty clearly: The Asuka (the broken!Asuka) is what the real Asuka is and this girl has nothing at all. No purpose to live and so on. Misato isn't also not likely for coming back because she made up her mind while she asking: "Did i do the right think Kaji?". Its likewise with Ritsuko - she faced the reality and betrayed Gendo by killing herself. But thant doesn't mean Asuka isn't coming back. She actually is there to proof Shinji and the audience that even she and establish herself again. Which IMO indicates the possiblity for Ritsuko, Misato and maybe Kaji to come back. What also could be possible that Kaji saved Asuka after she got "killed" by the MPevas or she was not affected by the liquididation for the 3rd Impact (which is both pretty far fetched)

No, but c'mon. Apart from the hospital scene, the shots we see of him in P3II have him focusing pretty heavily on her body, and she calls him out for lusting after her instead of dealing with her as a person. And when asked what he truly desires, what do we get? Naked Rei, Misato, and Asuka. And then, who's his psychopomp? That's right: Asuka's naked chest. Not even Asuka, just her chest.

But what you missing is the way Asuka throws herself at him and Kaji (to Kaji more open-way). She is begging to recognize her body and the boobs in Magma diver. What you excepting from Shinji. She make herself unlikable to Shinji ... i have the same experience with my ex gf. She was this tall tennis girl with an character like sandpaper. But she throw herself to me ... what should i possibly do? I would say Shinji is a "man" by being interested in this stuff just as most of us do. Objective is another word. The way he treats her as "side-dish" is far more mysogonistic and yet still a cause of Asukas unbearable character.

One part is leftout. E23 for Asuka where she says: "Last time you didn't do that for me" - while Shinji is saving Rei. Most of the people see in this phrase that it is adressed to her Eva. Which is not true: E22 she sees her Eva as a puppet and yet she doesn't change her mind. This line is adressed to Shinji.
And the false rebirth is only a develop on purpose.

That is the product of fear, not malice or cruelty, which means the crucial element central to all bullying -- the intent to victimize and cause harm -- simply is not there.

Nice sum.

I would like to see Kendrix and various Rei-shipper to read this thread. Because it sums up what Asuka is. Not the narcisstic brat but rather a little broken bird. The way how she summarized the "make a friendship with the first child" is sooooo good analyzed.

[Bagheera]

But what you missing is the way Asuka throws herself at him and Kaji (to Kaji more open-way).

I'm not missing it, it just isn't relevant. She wasn't throwing herself at him when she was sedated, for chrissakes, and she wasn't doing it in P3II either. She was demanding he engage with her as a person there, and he kept right on focusing on her body. So she was pretty much right on that point. I agree claiming he does it all the time is a stretch, though, and there's certainly a lot more to it than that. But even so, there is a touch of misogyny in his thinking, which is not surprising.

One part is leftout. E23 for Asuka where she says: "Last time you didn't do that for me" - while Shinji is saving Rei.

She was talking about Gendo there, not Shinji. Gendo would let Shinji sortie to save Rei, but not Asuka. That's what that scene was about.

Nice sum.

Thanks!

I would like to see Kendrix and various Rei-shipper to read this thread. Because it sums up what Asuka is. Not the narcisstic brat but rather a little broken bird. The way how she summarized the "make a friendship with the first child" is sooooo good analyzed.

That and the parts on HPD were absolutely brilliant, and will become the stock response every time Kendrix or Gob or someone try to call Asuka a bully or a narcissist.

[SEELE]

I'm not missing it, it just isn't relevant. She wasn't throwing herself at him when she was sedated, for chrissakes, and she wasn't doing it in P3II either. She was demanding he engage with her as a person there, and he kept right on focusing on her body. So she was pretty much right on that point. I agree claiming he does it all the time is a stretch, though, and there's certainly a lot more to it than that. But even so, there is a touch of misogyny in his thinking, which is not surprising.

She was talking about Gendo there, not Shinji. Gendo would let Shinji sortie to save Rei, but not Asuka. That's what that scene was about.

That and the parts on HPD were absolutely brilliant, and will become the stock response every time Kendrix or Gob or someone try to call Asuka a bully or a narcissist.

Yeah you are right about EoE where she is sedated but Anno made this on purpose ... and you know that. Shinji is the kid of a patriachtic Gendo. The Ikaris can also represent patriarchal rule. Gendo is the archetypal Patriarch. Yui and Shinji are the underlying weaknesses of this Patriarch's seemingly absolute totalitarian rule, with Yui being the dependence onto the opposite sex to maintain the basis for the Patriarch's power, and Shinji as the agitating instability and Oedipal rage that is waiting to collapse the entire power structure anytime. My point is: this is caused by his relation with his father. Which is more unetionally. My dead parents also project their traumas with their family onto me. My father (who ceased away long ago) had serious trust issues with his father and so do i. My mother (who ceased away long ago) had some serious "self-worth" issues because her mother tried out domestic abuse. She tended to do the same because her mother was the same way. They are both dead ... but they keep influence me since then ... even if people are not present.

It is true that Shinji uses Asuka in a manner Gendo used Ritsuko (NOT THE EXACT SAME WAY!!!) but is a traumatic "preventations" of gettin picked on. Its likewise with Asuka. She feeled conered by Shinji (who is so much better than her) and acts out of fear. Shinji don't know what to do with girls and womens. So he rather frowns a voyeurism rather than actually "make" something with Asuka. But he is a victim in this not the guilty-guy.

About saving Asuka ... might be right, i dunno. Actually would be a revelation that she was really meant as a puppet.

About the stock response: Yeah that is what i actually thought about that too. But Kendrix goes even futher by excusing her behaviour by being "mentally screwed". In the later chapters (german fic - Childrean of the Prophecy) she potray Asuka as some sort of bully. A friend of mine tried to talk to her about that which is contered with "nah nah i'm right".

[Bagheera]

Yeah you are right about EoE where she is sedated but Anno made this on purpose ... and you know that.

Of course I do. Anno was very deliberately playing with gender roles in NGE, and his making Shinji misogynistic at points was quite calculated. That's part of why Western audiences are uncomfortable with him -- his brings attention to some of the uglier parts of themselves they don't wanna deal with.

About saving Asuka ... might be right, i dunno. Actually would be a revelation that she was really meant as a puppet.

Asuka was, yes. She was viewed as disposable by virtually all of the adults, with Misato being the only possible exception (and even that's debatable, given the way she let her go).

About the stock response: Yeah that is what i actually thought about that too. But Kendrix goes even futher by excusing her behaviour by being "mentally screwed". In the later chapters (german fic - Childrean of the Prophecy) she potray Asuka as some sort of bully. A friend of mine tried to talk to her about that which is contered with "nah nah i'm right".

Eva's a puzzle box, so the way it works is that people take what's presented to us and fill in the blanks with their own personal experiences. People who were bullied by girls latch on to the harsher aspects of Asuka's character and use those to define her, turning her into the bullies they were familiar with while growing up. The fact that what's on screen doesn't match their personal experiences is lost on them.

(and the reverse is also true, of course; since I wasn't bullied I latch on to the positive aspects of the character, and note that she is not portrayed as a bully in the show. But in reality, someone with her background would probably become a bully in most circumstances, so it's not like the notion is completely irrational. It just isn't what's actually depicted in the show. As with many things Anno left the question open-ended, leaving us to interpret it as we will.)

[SEELE]

Eva's a puzzle box, so the way it works is that people take what's presented to us and fill in the blanks with their own personal experiences. People who were bullied by girls latch on to the harsher aspects of Asuka's character and use those to define her, turning her into the bullies they were familiar with while growing up. The fact that what's on screen doesn't match their personal experiences is lost on them.
(and the reverse is also true, of course; since I wasn't bullied I latch on to the positive aspects of the character, and note that she is not portrayed as a bully in the show. But in reality, someone with her background would probably become a bully in most circumstances, so it's not like the notion is completely irrational. It just isn't what's actually depicted in the show. As with many things Anno left the question open-ended, leaving us to interpret it as we will.)

I did get you on that. But like you mentioned: People who were bullied [...]. The truth (and Kendrix knows that because told her my backround story) is that i was bullied my whole childhood. I was everytime the one who gets picked on or got some "nice nicknames". And people tend to make the world "black and white". Bullies are most of the time only victims and scared. Some of the bullies are actually my closest friends that i have. (my best buddy isn't actually a bully) but turning her into a bully (Asuka) isn't a excuse with experience. Gob and Kendrix have both (to me at least) different outcomes ... so to say this is cause they are familiar with this isn't a excuse at all. Its rather a wish fullfillment to deny every other possible direction. Which is "okay" if they are writing a fanfiction. But most of the Rei-shipper claiming exactly that character trait of Asuka to be true (and canon most of the part). And still that i was bullied i kinda understand them back in the day. I was a wimp, coward and slacker. But i can still focus on Asuka "good" character though and on Shinji "behaviour". I like Asuka as character so much and see her qualities but try to explain that to various Rei-shipper. So this isn't the cause of bullying. Some people might deny this but have experience in that. But to fill in the blanks is also to justify this kind of development. And most of fic i read with Asuka are missing this "justifycation".

Under Asukas circumstances Toji would be a bully ... yeah but only he is some sort of it in the beginning. To me for example i dont get the popularity of Rei.What makes her so interesting?

And this is what the essay showed me. It showed me how right i was about Asuka since the beginning.

[Bagheera]

It always amazes me that people don't give Touji more criticism, given that his behavior is downright criminal at times. I'm totally and completely serious there -- taking picture of women while they're undressing is illegal, and actually selling those pictures is just beyond the pale. I get that Touji's a minor character, but even so, were I in Asuka's position I'd be pretty pissed about that. And since Shinji's friends with him, well, that must mean he has no problem with said behavior, so . . .

The weird part is that it's usually girls who call Asuka a bully. I often wonder if they've thought things through in light of Touji's behavior, as I can't imagine they'd excuse such a thing if it happened in real life.

[SEELE]

It always amazes me that people don't give Touji more criticism, given that his behavior is downright criminal at times. I'm totally and completely serious there -- taking picture of women while they're undressing is illegal, and actually selling those pictures is just beyond the pale. I get that Touji's a minor character, but even so, were I were in Asuka's position I'd be pretty pissed about that. And since Shinji's friends with him, well, that must mean he has no problem with said behavior, so . . .

The weird part is that it's usually girls who call Asuka a bully. I often wonder if they've thought things through in light of Touji's behavior, as I can't imagine they'd excuse such a thing if it happened in real life.

Don't forget Kensuke. He made the pictures. I wouldn't care less if they gets beatn up for that or bullied.

The weird part is that it's usually girls who call Asuka a bully.

No not girls everytime. Rei-shipper most of the time.

The author of the essay is a girl and there is SSD (they a both prior examples for Asuka-symphatizers). Okay they are bad examples (because they are pretty straight forward) but i knew a lot of girls who actually like Asuka the way i present her to them. And i don't mind at all if someone potrays her HPD as something similiar as bully behaviour. More essential is the part with "confrontation" that she is not seeking out for it. Its one of the best lines about this essay. And one part is missing is the "nitpicking" on Misato from Asuka. They are all the time underlined with "you stole mah Kaji god damn". A proof for "defense mechanics".

[Bagheera]

No not girls everytime. Rei-shipper most of the time. The author of the essay is a girl and there is SSD.

I've never seen SSD call Asuka a bully, and she's definitely not a Rei-shipper. She's as LAS as we get. The author of the essay likewise doesn't call Asuka a bully.

I'm not saying girls tend to think Asuka is a bully, if that's what you're thinking. I'm just noting that most who do call her a bully are girls, and that it's odd given her experiences with the Idiot Trio.

They are all the time underlined with "you stole mah Kaji god damn". A proof for "defense mechanics".

The most important thing Asuka critics miss is that Misato lied to Asuka's face about her relationship with Kaji, and that Asuka's harshest words to her were spoken immediately after she learned of this. It puts a totally different spin on practically everything about the relationship between the two.

[SEELE]

I've never seen SSD call Asuka a bully, and she's definitely not a Rei-shipper. She's as LAS as we get. The author of the essay likewise doesn't call Asuka a bully.

I'm not saying girls tend to think Asuka is a bully, if that's what you're thinking. I'm just noting that most who do call her a bully are girls, and that it's odd given her experiences with the Idiot Trio.



The most important thing Asuka critics miss is that Misato lied to Asuka's face about her relationship with Kaji, and that Asuka's harshest words to her were spoken immediately after she learned of this. It puts a totally different spin on practically everything about the relationship between the two.

I edit the lines about SSD and the author.

About Misato's relation to Asuka: That bugs me now. But that would explain Misato's "let her do it"-attitude in E22. This is actually a good topic. The whole Kaji and Asuka making a picnic thing is foreshadowing this events just like the usage of Sachiels groin to kill him (indication of Shinjis problems with the other gender). To much symbolic meaning ... system overload. But i enjoyed this essay pretty much. Currently reading "Kaji is the bond-girl".

[ElMariachi]

It always amazes me that people don't give Touji more criticism, given that his behavior is downright criminal at times. I'm totally and completely serious there -- taking picture of women while they're undressing is illegal, and actually selling those pictures is just beyond the pale. I get that Touji's a minor character, but even so, were I in Asuka's position I'd be pretty pissed about that. And since Shinji's friends with him, well, that must mean he has no problem with said behavior, so . . .

But was Shinji even aware of Toji and Kensuke's "side-activity"?

The whole Kaji and Asuka making a picnic thing is foreshadowing this events just like the usage of Sachiels groin to kill him (indication of Shinjis problems with the other gender).

It was with one of Sachiel's ribs thingies around his core, and it was Yui who did the deed, not Shinji.
When Shinji fights on close quarter he tends to act like a brawler : brutal, all-out and straight to the closest weak point (core for Shamshell, faceplate for Zeruel), so I don't think that his fights against Angels are any indications of problems with the other gender.
He does have problems to understand girls and women, but that's hardly odd for a 14 years old boy, beside Shinji has a problem to communicate with everyone, men and women alike.

[Bagheera]

But was Shinji even aware of Toji and Kensuke's "side-activity"?

I think every boy in the school was aware. He might not have been complicit, but he couldn't help but be aware.

He does have problems to understand girls and women, but that's hardly odd for a 14 years old boy, beside Shinji has a problem to communicate with everyone, men and women alike.

Agreed here.

[Atropos]

It always amazes me that people don't give Touji more criticism, given that his behavior is downright criminal at times. I'm totally and completely serious there -- taking picture of women while they're undressing is illegal, and actually selling those pictures is just beyond the pale.

I think the photos were Kensuke's doing. Touji just got dragged along with it, much as he did with Shamshel.

[Bagheera]

I think the photos were Kensuke's doing. Touji just got dragged along with it, much as he did with Shamshel.

Well, there's no question Kensuke's the brains of the outfit in that pair, so that's certainly plausible. Either way I think it's fair to say the "idiot trio" is well-named!