A remake or a sequel?

[NemZ]

The aggressive tone in this thread needs go down a couple of notches.

I'd also like to remind everyone not to abuse the quote function, as that gets really tiring to read in a hurry. Many of these replies could be simply addressed to the speaker without a quote in the form @(someone):, and when addressing specific sections is required it is preferable to quote whole sections to reply to rather than to dissect it line-by-line and risk getting lost in arguments about minutia.

[Bagheera]

sgtdraino: The SRW theory is actually more likely since the staff hasn't explicitly denied that it's the case. There's also the matter of precedent and the fact that it still fits perfectly with what Kaworu said. The "significance" of Kaworu's lines isn't really relevant since, as I noted, the precedent is there and there's no evidence against the idea. It actually fits pretty well.

Of course, prior childhood meeting remains most likely explanation, since official sources discredit everything else supporting the sequel theory. But I'm going with SRW theory, 'cause it's funny.

[ElMariachi]

Personally, I'm okay with the SRW interpretation that Kaworu can travel through dimensions or can see through many dimensions at the same time, like Quantum!Rei could be everywhere in time and space in Earth, as long as it's only hinted and strictly limited to Kaworu, meaning that it doesn't influence the story beyond his acts while he's alive.
That would keep some sort of mystery and myth around him, without interfering with the story proper, the last thing we need is Kaworu, or worse, Shinji playing Doctor Who or Homura Akemi!

[sgtdraino]

sgtdraino: The SRW theory is actually more likely since the staff hasn't explicitly denied that it's the case. There's also the matter of precedent and the fact that it still fits perfectly with what Kaworu said. The "significance" of Kaworu's lines isn't really relevant since, as I noted, the precedent is there and there's no evidence against the idea. It actually fits pretty well.

Of course, prior childhood meeting remains most likely explanation, since official sources discredit everything else supporting the sequel theory. But I'm going with SRW theory, 'cause it's funny.

Of course, your assertions of "more likely" and "most likely" are just your opinion. In my opinion neither of those options is very likely at all. The context of the scenes in question were serious, I don't think Anno was inserting inside jokes into them. To the point, the comments are too vague to be an in-joke reference to a video game. It would need to be more specific, so that the audience could "get" the joke.

As far as childhood meetings go, that is pure ass-pull. There is absolutely no indication, hints, foreshadowing, or anything else to support that. It is a fan attempt to explain away something, simply because you really don't like the alternative.

Putting aside for a moment the unreliability of the "staff," I was not aware that they addressed Kaworu's comments. What specifically did they say about them?

[Bagheera]

The audience doesn't really need to get the joke, any more than they need to know why Asuka's name was changed or the lore behind the angels' names or who Gendo and Fuyutsuki are based on. It's the sort of thing that gets in a show because it amuses the director, nothing more.

But anyway "more likely" is actually fact in this case since we have staff telling us outright that the movies aren't a sequel to the show. That makes anything not directly contradicted by the films themselves more likely than the sequel theory at this point. Regarding childhood meeting specifically these are more likely because they're the only reasonable explanation for Kaworu's comments that don't include lots of, as you put it, ass pulls. Sequel theory is the mother of all ass pulls because there's nothing to support it -- Kaworu's comments are all it rests on, and given the contortions the plot would have to go through to make it happen an alternate explanation can't help but be more likely.

So, SRW is more likely because it amuses me and childhood meetings are more likely because they fit Kaworu's remarks exactly and require few, if any plot contortions to pull off. Occam's Razor is a harsh mistress, but its decision is clear in this case.

[pwhodges]

Kaworu's comments are all it rests on,

Actually, not quite all (giant's outline, red splash, red oceans perhaps), though I still agree with your conclusion.

[Sephizim]

the last thing we need is Kaworu, or worse, Shinji playing Doctor Who or Homura Akemi!

Yeah. The thing that bugs me about the Kaworu as time traveler theory is all the people going "Oh, so Kaworu is basically Homura" and then talking about Rebuild as a cheap Madoka knock-off. -.-

[Bagheera]

Actually, not quite all (giant's outline, red splash, red oceans perhaps), though I still agree with your conclusion.

Well, the thing is that all of that has been attributed to 2I in official sources (the oceans in the movies directly IIRC). As such it doesn't constitute evidence, and in the case of the red splash it doesn't even match up with what we saw in EoE anyway. Kaworu's lines are all that's left.

[ElMariachi]

Yeah. The thing that bugs me about the Kaworu as time traveler theory is all the people going "Oh, so Kaworu is basically Homura" and then talking about Rebuild as a cheap Madoka knock-off. -.-

I don't think anyone will make a comparison with Madoka, the two shows are way too different!

But the biggest problem if it's a Time Loop would be that everything that happened in NGE, all the characters development and experience, was for naught. We already got that kind of cop-out with the manga, no need to retroactively add one to the TV Series.

The theory of a dimension traveler Kaworu is far better in my opinion : basically he hops from one dimension to another, trying to make Shinji happy in as many as he can, and leaving for the next one once he dies, leaving his successes and failure behind and without the possibility to come back since he doesn't have a body there anymore.
That way his lines are explained, he still keep his aura of myth, and can influence the story as much as he can without being a Deus Ex Machina or taking over the plot, rendering everything the rest of the cast got through moot.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Just so I'm clear, I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. My statement didn't include "and everyone else here should believe this too."

But with everything that seems to be echoing back to EoE being blamed on NTE's 2nd Impact my the characters in the universe, trying to relink them back to EoE's canon seems to be reaching for straws. If NTE is a sequel to NGE, it'll most likely be on completely different terms.

[sgtdraino]

Yeah. The thing that bugs me about the Kaworu as time traveler theory is all the people going "Oh, so Kaworu is basically Homura" and then talking about Rebuild as a cheap Madoka knock-off. -.-

I know there's a number of variations of Sequel Theory out there, but as for myself, I don't believe any actual time travel is in play. I think Shinji being at the center of 3E in EoE created a situation where the forces of 3E attempted to fulfill whatever it was Shinji wished for. I think that resulted in the world being "rebuilt" (more or less) to the way it was at a point at or just before Shinji's birth, right around the original 2E of the TV series. Nobody's actually going back in time, the world is just rebuilt to look like it did back then, complete with people who look like they looked back then, with memories more-or-less like they had back then. But it's a fundamentally flawed rebuild, because Shinji is a fundamentally flawed person. That is why some artifacts of EoE have carried over.

At least that is my opinion, which obviously I cannot prove. :)

But the biggest problem if it's a Time Loop would be that everything that happened in NGE, all the characters development and experience, was for naught.

Not at all. On the contrary, it would mean that the actions undertaken in NGE and EoE made the world of Rebuild possible, made it possible to get it "right" this time. Had those actions not been taken, the Earth might instead be a truly dead planet, or ruled by the Angels with no human life left.

The theory of a dimension traveler Kaworu is far better in my opinion : basically he hops from one dimension to another, trying to make Shinji happy in as many as he can, and leaving for the next one once he dies, leaving his successes and failure behind and without the possibility to come back since he doesn't have a body there anymore.

Kaworu does not say anything in any of the movies that indicates he is hopping around to different dimensions. Shortly before his death in 4.0, you'd think he'd say something about going off to a different dimension if that were the case.

That way his lines are explained, he still keep his aura of myth, and can influence the story as much as he can without being a Deus Ex Machina or taking over the plot, rendering everything the rest of the cast got through moot.

Since he's dead now, it seems like he'll most likely keep his aura of myth regardless. In any event, I don't really see how Kaworu dimension hopping around somehow makes characters' experiences any more (or less) meaningful in these various different dimensions.

Suppose for a moment that you are right, that Kaworu is hopping between dimensions, and his comments refer to Shinji in NGE and EoE, but that this was a different dimension. We'll call this Scenario A.

Now suppose that Kaworu isn't hopping between dimensions, but his comments do refer to Shinji in NGE and EoE prior to the world being rebuilt into the Rebuild world. We'll call this Scenario B.

What's the difference? What is it about Scenario A, that you think makes NGE character experiences more meaningful than in Scenario B?

[UrsusArctos]

At least that is my opinion, which obviously I cannot prove. :)

If you can't prove your opinion and can't give any clear reason why you don't believe other's opnions, why are you taking part in this discussion? You're making statements without any logical backing and are expecting others to prove their opinions or theories to you, while doing nothing of the same. You call the idea of Shinji meeting Kaworu as a child a mere "ass-pull" for no good reason, while you utterly ignore the reasons put forward by others.

Respect other's opinions and their explanations, and others will respect yours. It's as simple as that.

[ElMariachi]

Suppose for a moment that you are right, that Kaworu is hopping between dimensions, and his comments refer to Shinji in NGE and EoE, but that this was a different dimension. We'll call this Scenario A.

Now suppose that Kaworu isn't hopping between dimensions, but his comments do refer to Shinji in NGE and EoE prior to the world being rebuilt into the Rebuild world. We'll call this Scenario B.

What's the difference? What is it about Scenario A, that you think makes NGE character experiences more meaningful than in Scenario B?

Simple : in scenario A, the Shinji, Asuka and rest of the cast of NGE/EoE still exists, living the consequences of their choices and trying to move forward with the lessons they learned, Kaworu can only go in one dimension for a time, trying to influence the things to have the happiest ending for Shinji possible, essentially taking a bet everytime; while in Scenario B except for a blood-red ocean and streak of blood on the Moon there wasn't any improvement, the situation seems to have got even shittier for everyone concerned, and especially Shinji who's now more at rock bottom in a pit of despair than he ever was in all the franchise. And character wise, everything that happened to them in the previous iteration would be moot, since no ones remembers it.

[Bagheera]

I know there's a number of variations of Sequel Theory out there, but as for myself, I don't believe any actual time travel is in play. I think Shinji being at the center of 3E in EoE created a situation where the forces of 3E attempted to fulfill whatever it was Shinji wished for. I think that resulted in the world being "rebuilt" (more or less) to the way it was at a point at or just before Shinji's birth, right around the original 2E of the TV series. Nobody's actually going back in time, the world is just rebuilt to look like it did back then, complete with people who look like they looked back then, with memories more-or-less like they had back then. But it's a fundamentally flawed rebuild, because Shinji is a fundamentally flawed person. That is why some artifacts of EoE have carried over.

So why the addition of Mari, or Asuka's name change? He knows Asuka better than anyone, why would he get her name wrong? Why would Anno tell her VA she's a different person? And how do you get from the final scene of EoE to this rebuilt world? Why would the Evas and such operate according to a different metaphysics when Shiinji never knew anything about any of that? And why would you believe this when the creators of the show explicitly told us it wasn't a sequel (and no, Lost is not a good precedent for explaining why people in another country, in another freakin' industry, would be lying to their own staff and the public about their intentions for the show)?

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but what you describe here is not more reasonable than the alternative. It doesn't seem like there's anything in the movies to support it, either.

[sgtdraino]

If you can't prove your opinion and can't give any clear reason why you don't believe other's opnions, why are you taking part in this discussion?

I don't see what proving an opinion has to do with it. It seems to me that the vast majority of discussions about Eva involve fan opinions that can't be proven. And I think I have given clear reasons as to why I don't believe others' opinions on this. Where I differ from some of the others participating in this discussion, is I don't try to pretend that my position is definitely right, and someone else's position is definitely wrong.

You're making statements without any logical backing and are expecting others to prove their opinions or theories to you, while doing nothing of the same.

Would you care to give some examples of statements that I have made which do not have any logical backing? And I'm not expecting others to prove their opinions. It's just when others say that my opinion has been disproved or debunked, that they need to come up with actual proof to support that assertion. Saying that Sequel Theory has been disproved or debunked by nature means that you must have proof that this is the case. So, if you're going to say that, you need to provide the proof. I'm glad to see that those in question seemed to have backed of that position a bit.

You call the idea of Shinji meeting Kaworu as a child a mere "ass-pull" for no good reason, while you utterly ignore the reasons put forward by others.

"Ass-pull" is a TV Tropes term which means something for which there are no hints, implications, or foreshadowing in the plot. Since there is no indication in the plot that Shinji and Kaworu met as children, this is by definition an ass-pull. Conversely, there are many things in Rebuild that appear to be references to stuff that carried over from damage inflicted in NGE and EoE. Hints, implications, foreshadowing. As such, Sequel Theory is not an ass-pull.

Respect other's opinions and their explanations, and others will respect yours. It's as simple as that.

I do respect other people's opinions. However, I do not respect when someone tries to act like their opinion is fact.

Simple : in scenario A, the Shinji, Asuka and rest of the cast of NGE/EoE still exists, living the consequences of their choices and trying to move forward with the lessons they learned,

About the only thing we know for sure from EoE, is that Shinji and Asuka still exist. And even their futures look pretty bleak. It is genetically impossible to rebuild the human race from just two people. We don't know if anyone else will be coming back, and we don't know what (if anything) they would retain of their past experiences. TV NGE gives us a little hope, but really the sense of "moving forward" only exists in the imaginations of the viewers, imagining what hopefully might happen after the story has ended. Shinji choking Asuka is probably not a good start. ;)

Kaworu can only go in one dimension for a time, trying to influence the things to have the happiest ending for Shinji possible, essentially taking a bet everytime;

What do you see as being Kaworu's character motivations? If these really are different dimensions, and what happens in one is completely disconnected from another, then all these different Shinjis are completely different people, different entities. What motivation would Kaworu have to hop around to a bunch of different alternate realities just to try and make different Shinjis happy (which, btw, he generally seems to fail at)? What is his end goal? What's the point? What's the objective?

while in Scenario B except for a blood-red ocean and streak of blood on the Moon there wasn't any improvement, the situation seems to have got even shittier for everyone concerned, and especially Shinji who's now more at rock bottom in a pit of despair than he ever was in all the franchise. And character wise, everything that happened to them in the previous iteration would be moot, since no ones remembers it.

Well, it ain't over 'til it's over. Maybe by the end of 4.0 the world will be a much more positive place, and some of our characters will get a sense of the lives they've lived before. In a sense, this theme has already been touched on with Rei, getting a sense of the lives she has lived in her previous incarnations, and becoming a bit more "human" because of it.

So why the addition of Mari, or Asuka's name change? He knows Asuka better than anyone, why would he get her name wrong?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle[/url]

The world of Rebuild has had at least 14 years to evolve in ways different to the original. It may also be that all the reconstituted people get some degree of say about their new existence (in fact EoE did imply that). Maybe Asuka just subconsciously wanted a different last name, because "I hate myself most of all." Maybe Gendo liked being Gendo Ikari so much, that he simply forgot this was originally his wife's name. Or maybe there is simply some degree of error that is inherent to the Impact/Rebuild/Instrumentality process.

Why would Anno tell her VA she's a different person?

Who knows? Maybe she is supposed to be a different person. Maybe Anno thought she was, but then changed his mind. Maybe Anno lied to the VA for some reason. In Lost, one of the actors spent an entire season believing he was playing one character, when actually he was playing a completely different character. Historically, actors are often in the dark in terms of what's going on.

And how do you get from the final scene of EoE to this rebuilt world?

Since we understand that all the melted people in EoE still may return to physical form, clearly the world as we saw it at the end of EoE is still in a state of flux. We are not seeing the final form it will take. We get from the final scene of EoE to the rebuilt world by Shinji, using the god-like powers he's been given, wishing he could live his life over again.

Why would the Evas and such operate according to a different metaphysics when Shiinji never knew anything about any of that?

In what ways do you think the metaphysics are different? Considering that metaphysics is very much a "soft" science (i.e. philosophy) I'm interested to hear what you say.

And why would you believe this when the creators of the show explicitly told us it wasn't a sequel

What "creators" explicitly told us it wasn't a sequel?
What are their names?
What reasons do you have for thinking these "creators" know what they're talking about?
What reasons do you have for thinking these "creators" didn't change their minds?
What reasons do you have for thinking these "creators" were even being honest with you?

(and no, Lost is not a good precedent for explaining why people in another country, in another freakin' industry, would be lying to their own staff and the public about their intentions for the show)?

So, your argument is that nobody in Japan would lie in order to make money?

[pwhodges]

I don't see what proving an opinion has to do with it.

You wrote earlier, of the CRCs:

the issue is that those sources are unreliable. You cannot prove that they are true,

which suggests that you think proof has a place.

Since we understand that all the melted people in EoE still may return to physical form, clearly the world as we saw it at the end of EoE is still in a state of flux. We are not seeing the final form it will take. We get from the final scene of EoE to the rebuilt world by Shinji, using the god-like powers he's been given, wishing he could live his life over again.

Pure fan-wank on your part this time. We have no evidence that Shinji has any god-like powers on leaving instrumentality.

What reasons do you have for thinking these "creators" know what they're talking about?
What reasons do you have for thinking these "creators" didn't change their minds?
What reasons do you have for thinking these "creators" were even being honest with you?

They created it; they described the process; we have no reason (in spite of your pushing the idea several times) to presume dishonesty on their parts.

[Sephizim]

I don't think anyone will make a comparison with Madoka, the two shows are way too different!

Clearly you've never been on tumblr then. I can dig up the images, if you wanted to see. People are basically calling Kaworu and Homura kindred spirits because they both "reset the timeline several times for their loved one." That's one of the things (but not the only thing) that bothers me about sequel theory: that it opens the door for people to make these kinds of assumptions, and once enough people latch on, they simply accept it as fact.

[Charsi]

The theory of a dimension traveler Kaworu is far better in my opinion : basically he hops from one dimension to another, trying to make Shinji happy in as many as he can, and leaving for the next one once he dies, leaving his successes and failure behind and without the possibility to come back since he doesn't have a body there anymore.

I'm not sure if i'd use the phrase "leaving for the next one". I prefer personally to think he simply exists in and is aware of, all the possibilities simultaneously, and there's an infinite number of them, he's in all of them, so if one of his worldlines ends.. he doesn't care. He's got an infinite number of strands or threads to try in.

It's NOT like Homura or Okabe Rintarou, because they need to be alive to work their "magic". Their perspective is limited to one world line at a time. I don't think Kaworu works that way. I have absolutely nothing to back any of that up, by the way. It's just a suspicion/wild guess.

If anything I also prefer this explanation, because it places the "godlike" powers more or less where they rather obviously belong: Kaworu. There's no hint Shinji has anything resembling time travel, dimension hopping or anything else. It also gives a simple, if obvious explanation for the visual similarities between EoE and Rebuild. They're both variations on Evangelion, so Evangelion-ey kinds of stuff happened.

[Chuckman]

Time traveling or universe hopping Kaworu is too bland. There is only one Kaworu who exists as a superposition of all possible Kaworus. We can only see one tiny slice of him at a time.

[Bagheera]

The world of Rebuild has had at least 14 years to evolve in ways different to the original. It may also be that all the reconstituted people get some degree of say about their new existence (in fact EoE did imply that). Maybe Asuka just subconsciously wanted a different last name, because "I hate myself most of all." Maybe Gendo liked being Gendo Ikari so much, that he simply forgot this was originally his wife's name. Or maybe there is simply some degree of error that is inherent to the Impact/Rebuild/Instrumentality process.

I thought you were assuming Shinji had godlike powers? What does what Asuka wants or doesn't have to do with anything?

Who knows? Maybe she is supposed to be a different person. Maybe Anno thought she was, but then changed his mind. Maybe Anno lied to the VA for some reason. In Lost, one of the actors spent an entire season believing he was playing one character, when actually he was playing a completely different character. Historically, actors are often in the dark in terms of what's going on.

Continuing to use Lost, a show noted for its utter lack of planning or direction, as a point of reference isn't very compelling. Most anime isn't that disorganized, and this is particularly true of Eva. Anno has changed his mind about the show's direction in the past, but he doesn't make shit up out of whole cloth to anywhere near the extent the creators of Lost did, and he doesn't have a track record of lying to his crew or the public as the creators of Lost do. Assuming he did (or even that that's a likely possibility) without some indication that that's the case is both unfair and misleading.

Since we understand that all the melted people in EoE still may return to physical form, clearly the world as we saw it at the end of EoE is still in a state of flux. We are not seeing the final form it will take. We get from the final scene of EoE to the rebuilt world by Shinji, using the god-like powers he's been given, wishing he could live his life over again.

But we have no reason to think he's been given god-like powers. Again, what do we see in the actual narrative that makes you think we can get from EoE to NTE?

In what ways do you think the metaphysics are different? Considering that metaphysics is very much a "soft" science (i.e. philosophy) I'm interested to hear what you say.

We know the rules concerning the operation of the Evas are different, as well as the interactions between Lilith, the Adams, the Angels, and the people of Earth. This has been addressed in any number of threads in the Rebuild subforum.

What "creators" explicitly told us it wasn't a sequel?

See the translated interviews from the CRCs.

So, your argument is that nobody in Japan would lie in order to make money?

No, my argument is that we ought to take what they say at face value unless given compelling reason to do otherwise. Lost is not compelling reason to do otherwise, since it has no bearing on anything associated with Eva. It's just not a valid point of comparison.