A remake or a sequel?

[Bagheera]

Not literally resetting time, but recreating a world similar to the way it was 14 years ago, complete with people who think it really is 14 years ago. It seems to me that this is what the original episodes 25 and 26 taught us: That Shinji can literally have any reality that he wants. It seems to me that this is also why Gendo wanted to be at the center of Instrumentality, that this would be his means to get Yui back.

No, it taught us that your perception of your situation is a state of mind, and that you have the power to change that if you so choose. See the bit about rainy days and such.

And again, why do you think the Seeds can even do that, let alone Shinji? Nothing in the show indicates that sort of reality manipulation is possible. Past that the notion that Shinji would subconsciously create a world with Eva in it doesn't make any sense at all, since that's the thing he hates more than anything. If he was gonna do something subconsciously we'd get a world like the one depicted in 26.

Instrumentality is not yet complete. As has been stated previously, other people have yet to return to their physical forms, but they still can. What we see at the end of EoE is still in a state of flux.

Not in the way you're describing. The options are stay in the sea or come out, that's it. That's what Rei told us, so that's how it is. Don't read more into it than is already there.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Intrumentality is over after Shinji jettisoned. The only thing in flux was the physical head count. If Shinji still had the ability to alter the world, he wouldn't have needed to attempt brute force to rid his world of Asuka.

[WunderBah]

lol

[sgtdraino]

No, it taught us that your perception of your situation is a state of mind, and that you have the power to change that if you so choose. See the bit about rainy days and such.

From the synopsis for Episode 26:

Shinji experiences an alternate reality which resembles a domestic comedy, everyone recast in appropriate roles: the Children are normal students, Misato is a teacher, Gendo works at the university with Fuyutsuki[2],and Yui is a housewife. Shinji himself is drastically changed into a more typical teenage boy, confident and lecherous, while Asuka is his oldest childhood friend, and Rei is a transfer student, presented as a perky, ditzy schoolgirl.

After seeing this, Shinji realizes that there are alternate possibilities to his current life; a Shinji that is not an Eva pilot can exist as well. Reality might no be so bad, if there are all these choices.

[url]http://evangelion.wikia.com/wiki/Episode:26[/url]

[Bagheera]

From the synopsis for Episode 26:

Yes, that's very nice. But did you watch the rest of the episode? And did you pay attention to the fact that this alternate reality takes place inside Instrumentality, and is thus not meaningful when talking about the real world?

Shinji can't have any reality he wants (well, unless he's fantasizing in Instrumentality before Rei does her thing, but that would be pretty meaningless in the end). The world as we see it at the end of EoE is the world he's stuck with.

[ElMariachi]

Slightly off-topic, but Shinji imagining Yui as a housewife show us how little he knew about his mother, who's heavily implied to be even more of a genius than Gendo and to be one wearing the pants in the family. There's no way she would had settled for being an housewife, at least not for very long, Shinji's first years at best.

And in a way, that's really sad : Shinji never got the chance to really know his mother, and all the trace of his family from the time they were all three and happy were destroyed by Gendo... no wonder it's so hard for him to make roots in a place and with people, he never had any roots before.

[sgtdraino]

Yes, that's very nice. But did you watch the rest of the episode? And did you pay attention to the fact that this alternate reality takes place inside Instrumentality, and is thus not meaningful when talking about the real world?

It's meaningful because that alternate reality is presented as an option for him. Instrumentality is telling him, "your life could be like this, if you wanted it to." If that is an option, then Instrumentality has truly given Shinji the ability to remake the world in whatever way he wants. That's what I took away from it, and that's why it makes sense that Gendo wanted it to be him instead.

Broadly I see the story of NGE like this: Seele wants to bring about instrumentality because they think it will raise them up to near-godhood. Gendo plots to put himself at the center of this for the same reason, so that he can use his new god-like powers to bring back his wife. Instead, Shinji ends up being the center of this new creation, so, much more-so than anyone else, it is up to him what the world will look like once the process is complete. Everything ultimately depends on Shinji, who is broadly clueless about all this.

[Bagheera]

It's meaningful because that alternate reality is presented as an option for him. Instrumentality is telling him, "your life could be like this, if you wanted it to." If that is an option, then Instrumentality has truly given Shinji the ability to remake the world in whatever way he wants.

That's a leap in logic, dude. You're taking something that was presented as an example as though it was literal fact, and the story makes it clear that this is not the intent.

That's what I took away from it, and that's why it makes sense that Gendo wanted it to be him instead.

No, Gendo wanted it to be with him so he could be reunited with Yui. It's possible he also wanted to uplift humanity via a hard takeoff in the process, but actually altering reality was never in the cards.

Broadly I see the story of NGE like this: Seele wants to bring about instrumentality because they think it will raise them up to near-godhood. Gendo plots to put himself at the center of this for the same reason, so that he can use his new god-like powers to bring back his wife. Instead, Shinji ends up being the center of this new creation, so, much more-so than anyone else, it is up to him what the world will look like once the process is complete. Everything ultimately depends on Shinji, who is broadly clueless about all this.

The problem here is that you seem to be assuming that all of these people want Instrumentality so they can have the power of gods, when in fact what they want is to lose their physical forms and be united/reunited with others using Eva as a medium. Actual, personal godhood isn't part of the equation at any point, so when Shinji comes back from Instrumentality (and when Yui destroys all the FAR tech on Earth) he's back to being an ordinary guy. No Eva, no god. Simple as that.

You seem to be making interpretations based on a superficial reading of the show. That's understandable, as it's a lot to take in, but it might be helpful to read through the wiki and various discussion threads here before going further.

[kuribo-04]

lol

Hmmm... the first is the GeoFront, the second is outside Tokyo-3. And the footprint is probably <this guy.

[ElMariachi]

I would say it's probably from when Shinji charged at Shamshel earlier the same day.

[kuribo-04]

I would say it's probably from when Shinji charged at Shamshel earlier the same day.

True. Maybe the script/storyboard would answer this.

[one-eyed]

The problem with these indications of temporal loops is that the science of the Evas and the power of Angels seems clearly to permit the manipulation of time and space. Unless the FAR were like the Mayans who knew the wheel and did not use it to move carts , they had technology to manipulate dimensions and could have actually created alternate timelines. Even the bizarre scene with Shinji seeing alternative lives and the various alternate endings of Eva make sense if the FAR dimensional technology is advanced enough to not only bend the fourth , but the fifth and sixth dimensions: the effect would be the same as all the fanfiction and most absurd Eva theories ever formulated .

The other problem is that Eva is not a work of science fiction and all that potential is wasted in favor of human dramas. This is wrong? No, I like human dramas; it's just a waste of interesting idea.

If somebody want to understand the bizarreness that I think could have been Instrumentality see: Imaginando a Décima Dimensão - Parte 1 - legendas em portugues is in English , but it is easy to understandand and only takes about 7 minutes.

[sgtdraino]

That's a leap in logic, dude. You're taking something that was presented as an example as though it was literal fact, and the story makes it clear that this is not the intent.

I disagree. I think the implication in the story is that, through Instrumentality, Shinji has the power to remake reality.

No, Gendo wanted it to be with him so he could be reunited with Yui. It's possible he also wanted to uplift humanity via a hard takeoff in the process, but actually altering reality was never in the cards.

Altering reality, achieving the power of creation, is the means by which Gendo would be reunited with Yui.

The problem here is that you seem to be assuming that all of these people want Instrumentality so they can have the power of gods, when in fact what they want is to lose their physical forms and be united/reunited with others using Eva as a medium. Actual, personal godhood isn't part of the equation at any point, so when Shinji comes back from Instrumentality (and when Yui destroys all the FAR tech on Earth) he's back to being an ordinary guy. No Eva, no god. Simple as that.

I disagree, I think there's more to it than that. If that's all it was, then it wouldn't matter who initiated it. Angels, Seele, Gendo, Shinji, it makes no difference. Instead, who actually does it seems to be very important. That's why Gendo secretly plots against Seele, that's why Seele takes out NERV in EoE, but that's why both Gendo and Seele try to fight the Angels. These forces are all vying against each other, because each one wants to be the master of Instrumentality.

You seem to be making interpretations based on a superficial reading of the show. That's understandable, as it's a lot to take in, but it might be helpful to read through the wiki and various discussion threads here before going further.

My, what a condescending attitude! Perhaps you are the one who is mistaken. You're not Hideaki Anno, are you? You're just another fan trying to interpret his work.

[Bagheera]

My, what a condescending attitude! Perhaps you are the one who is mistaken. You're not Hideaki Anno, are you? You're just another fan trying to interpret his work.

. . . you've been here two days, we've been discussing this for years. That's why I suggested you read some of the threads on the subject before continuing.

[ElMariachi]

I disagree. I think the implication in the story is that, through Instrumentality, Shinji has the power to remake reality.

If that was the case, then why didn't Shinji remade reality? Not a big fantasyland where happiness is spoonfed to him, but at least one less shitty where Second Impact didn't happened, there isn't any FAR technology or entity anywhere so everyone could live happily and half the planet wasn't killed, instead of the shitty state Earth is in the final scene, with a red ocean, giant petrified parts of Rei scattered and people who will come back little by little but with a guarantee that the ongoing years will be hard?

In short, if he really had the power to remake reality, not run away in a fantasied illusion, but actually recreate the world like a God, then why didn't we got an ending like in the manga, where everyone is alive and happy?

For me, that can only mean that Instrumentality didn't granted him Reality Warper powers.

[Chuckman]

If that was the case, then why didn't Shinji remade reality? Not a big fantasyland where happiness is spoonfed to him, but at least one less shitty where Second Impact didn't happened, there isn't any FAR technology or entity anywhere so everyone could live happily and half the planet wasn't killed, instead of the shitty state Earth is in the final scene, with a red ocean, giant petrified parts of Rei scattered and people who will come back little by little but with a guarantee that the ongoing years will be hard?

Maybe he's not the one remaking reality. He is the dream, but not the dreamer.

He did try putting himself in a better world. A world of toast and panties. He rejected it.

Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Eva is a work that toys heavily with its own fictionality and gets heavily meta at times. Rebuild is even heavier with hints that Shinji is in a dream but not his dream.

The Key of Nebuchadnezzar is a Matrix reference.

[ElMariachi]

So Gendo is Agent Smith? Because that would be really badass.

[Chuckman]

I don't think the dream-nature of the story will have any direct impact on the plot and would only be suggested during a breakdown of reality and causation as in EoE. Shinji is not going to realize he's in a dream and gain superpowers and fistfight Gendo.

I mean he should but it's more of a thematic thing. Rebuild is an admission that depression can't be solved. The Great Work is a lifelong process and the best you can do is "almost done".

Rebuild is neither remake nor sequel. It's direction continuation, taking advantage of the opening water/subconscious imagery in way that anticipates the use of the same in Inception a year after 1.0 came out. Inception is a more interesting comparison than The Matrix. Nolan's film touches on the same subtext of narrative-as-shared-dream that Evangelion does, without taking a firm stance on the nature of reality the way the Wachowski film does. I do wonder if there is any influence from the "Desert of the Real" imagery in the Matrix on the wastelands in Q.

Anyway the sequel-contiunationness of Rebuild is built on the idea expressed in Inception (arrived at first by Anno, actually, or at least presented first) that film rests on the same time wonkiness of dreams where the "connective tissue" of reality (banal things like actually traveling to a destination or living before the story starts) just don't exist.

The same Shinji soul-poppet Anno breathed life into clicked directly from straddling Asuka and weeping to holding the phone in his hand again because that's how dream logic works.

[Charsi]

Maybe he's not the one remaking reality. He is the dream, but not the dreamer.

What if Kaworu is the dreamer?

Holy fuck. If this is Kaworu's instrumentality/loop/rebuild/creation... it really makes a sick sort of sense. That would be the secret Kaworu's seiyuu is in on. It would be why Kaworu has seen Shinji before, will see Shinji again, and why he's unconcerned by his "death" - because it's irrelevant, it just means that attempt ends. He'll simply move onto the next attempt, to some other rebuild, where he'll meet Shinji again ("you never change, do you?") and try and make Shinji happy once more.

Please tell me i'm not the first to think this up...

If true, what happens in the fourth movie is basically irrelevant. They could all live, they could all die, it won't matter if Kaworu is in the driver's seat because we're watching the tailings of a timeline in which Kaworu died. Or maybe, just maybe... Shinji finds happiness without, or because of Kaworu's death, and he pops in at the last minute and says "wtf, you found it by yourself? I've been doing this over and over trying to help and all I had to do was die?". (Ironic mimickry of TV series timeline fully intended.)

[sgtdraino]

. . . you've been here two days, we've been discussing this for years.

Just because I've been on this forum for two days, doesn't mean I haven't been discussing Eva for years, possibly even longer than you have.

If that was the case, then why didn't Shinji remade reality?

Because Shinji is largely clueless about the whole thing. He doesn't understand what is going on, or what he can do about it. He is, as usual, a babe in the woods. To an extent, I think he did remake reality (the reality we see in Rebuild), but I don't think it's something he did on a conscious level. More on the level of, "I wish everything was the way it was!" Presto, reset to Second Impact.