Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

[swagbuckking1]

It's pretty likely SEELE's original plan for the Third Impact has to be changed....

I mean, I'm pretty sure SEELE's original plan doesn't include Mark-06 becoming an autonomous model.

Interesting. Where are you getting this from?

[Konja7]

Interesting. Where are you getting this from?

In itself, Kaworu and Kaji were working against SEELE. So, it's extremely unlikely SEELE's plan can move forward smoothly.

SEELE's original plan likely included Kaworu to be the pilot of Mark-06 for the Third Impact. Instead, SEELE makes Mark-06 into an autonomous model and seems to use the 12th Angel for this. If I'm not mistaken, SEELE's original plan was to destroy the Angels first.

We also know one Wunder (at least) was created for the time of the Third Impact, which implies SEELE would need it. However, in the flashback of the Third Impact, the Wunder was on WILLE's possesion and wasn't being used for the Third Impact.

[swagbuckking1]

In itself, Kaworu and Kaji were working against SEELE. So, it's extremely unlikely SEELE's plan can move forward smoothly.

SEELE's original plan likely included Kaworu to be the pilot of Mark-06 for the Third Impact. Instead, SEELE makes Mark-06 into an autonomous model and seems to use the 12th Angel for this. If I'm not mistaken, SEELE's original plan was to destroy the Angels first.

We also know one Wunder (at least) was created for the time of the Third Impact, which implies SEELE would need it. However, in the flashback of the Third Impact, the Wunder was on WILLE's possesion and wasn't being used for the Third Impact.

So you're just guessing?

[Konja7]

So you're just guessing?

Well, considering that we lack information about the Third Impact, we could only guess many things.

That said, things like the Wunder being created before the Third Impact (and not being used for the Third Impact) and Mark-06 being turned into an autonomous model are confirmed.

Also, Kaworu and Kaji secretely working against SEELE when they were Commander and Vicecommander of NERV seems a logical deduction.

[Szmitten]

There is a general widespread misunderstanding about both N3I and 3I and the timescales and order of which things are occuring so I think it's worth checking this bit of self-indulgence. Mercifully I'd already unfanfic'd most of this already and -46h didn't actually disrupt anything, and alarmingly one sentence was pretty much made manifest in the short so I'd say it's still good: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... kip_period

[nerv bae]

So you're just guessing?

He's making inferences!

There is a general widespread misunderstanding about both N3I and 3I and the timescales and order of which things are occuring so I think it's worth checking this bit of self-indulgence. Mercifully I'd already unfanfic'd most of this already and -46h didn't actually disrupt anything, and alarmingly one sentence was pretty much made manifest in the short so I'd say it's still good: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... kip_period

Thank you for updating this; I think it's a great resource. Per the changelog, I think you added "seabound," among other things. I remember that -46h shows Wunder in the sea near the Operation US launch barges two days before 3.0 (just before Midori's flashback), but I don't remember that it's shown in the sea during the flashback (about 14 years earlier). If not, does "seabound" still make sense in this context?

[Szmitten]

Thank you for updating this; I think it's a great resource. Per the changelog, I think you added "seabound," among other things. I remember that -46h shows Wunder in the sea near the Operation US launch barges two days before 3.0 (just before Midori's flashback), but I don't remember that it's shown in the sea during the flashback (about 14 years earlier). If not, does "seabound" still make sense in this context?

It has to be seabound because a) Kaji and Misato and Ritsuko have it since it's in the background of Kaji's farewell scene, so it's in their possession as of 3I, and b) Despite the presence of regular rockets introduced in Shin, Wunder apparently never flew before Q, so it has to have been in the water with the rest of the fleet for the full 14 years. It's not strange considering they were confined to carriers, took them over during the insurrection, then continued to use them as home base to avoid cored land until they could air drop anti-L hex pillars to establish villages.

[ElMariachi]

So you're just guessing?

It's not explained, but there are clear implications: in 2.0 SEELE presents Mark.06 as the future "True God" that they'll use instead of Unit 01 (the "false god"), Gendo says at the end of 2.0 as N3I is happening that "soon their plans will come to fruition"... fast-forward 14 years, and both SEELE and Gendo are building a new Unit for their plan, and the giant shield around Lilith is treated as an obstacle rather than a protection, so everything points to something going pear-shaped during the timeskip that forced everyone to drastically change their plans.

There is a general widespread misunderstanding about both N3I and 3I and the timescales and order of which things are occuring so I think it's worth checking this bit of self-indulgence. Mercifully I'd already unfanfic'd most of this already and -46h didn't actually disrupt anything, and alarmingly one sentence was pretty much made manifest in the short so I'd say it's still good: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... kip_period

As I said somewhere else, I think that we over-explained things with this N3I and A3I thing: Shinji unwittingly started Third Impact in 2.0 and Kaworu stopped it, so the event was dubbed "Near Third Impact" (as seen in the NTP), then some times later Third Impact is restarted by the Mark.06/Lilith/12 Angel thing, and Kaji stops it at the cost of his life, so this event was also put under the umbrella term of "Near Third Impact".
That's why Kensuke says that Kaji sacrificed himself to stop Third Impact (that was restarted) and Asuka screams at Shinji in 3.0 if he wants to restart Third Impact (which would make it the second time it was restarted).
The Lilin retroactively named all those events "Near Third Impact" because a 100% completion 3I would had killed all of humanity, instead of the 99.999% that it ended up being.
Kaworu, SEELE and Gendo talk about this event as Third Impact because while it didn't achieved 100% of its goal, it was still good enough for SEELE to go to the fourth and last phase of their plan, Fourth Impact, to "purify" the souls of all those that were turned to FoIs during Third Impact.

The conclusion is that for the Lilin (WILLE + Village-3), "Third Impact" and "Near Third Impact" are interchangeable terms, 3I being what was set up to happen and "Near" 3I what ended up happening.

[nerv bae]

It has to be seabound because a) Kaji and Misato and Ritsuko have it since it's in the background of Kaji's farewell scene, so it's in their possession as of 3I, and b) Despite the presence of regular rockets introduced in Shin, Wunder apparently never flew before Q, so it has to have been in the water with the rest of the fleet for the full 14 years. It's not strange considering they were confined to carriers, took them over during the insurrection, then continued to use them as home base to avoid cored land until they could air drop anti-L hex pillars to establish villages.

Oh, I get it, "seabound" like "bound to [limited to] the sea," not "seabound" like "bound for [headed for] the sea." I can accept that Wunder has always been at sea, given that its first three appearances show or imply it at sea: -46h and 3.0 show it, and 3+1's 3I flashback implies it by showing N2 reactors, which WILLE typically hauls on carriers, alongside Wunder's antenna dishes. (I had forgotten this last bit, and had been imagining that the 3I flashback happens with Wunder on land somehow.)

[swagbuckking1]

As I said somewhere else, I think that we over-explained things with this N3I and A3I thing: Shinji unwittingly started Third Impact in 2.0 and Kaworu stopped it, so the event was dubbed "Near Third Impact" (as seen in the NTP), then some times later Third Impact is restarted by the Mark.06/Lilith/12 Angel thing, and Kaji stops it at the cost of his life, so this event was also put under the umbrella term of "Near Third Impact".
That's why Kensuke says that Kaji sacrificed himself to stop Third Impact (that was restarted) and Asuka screams at Shinji in 3.0 if he wants to restart Third Impact (which would make it the second time it was restarted).
The Lilin retroactively named all those events "Near Third Impact" because a 100% completion 3I would had killed all of humanity, instead of the 99.999% that it ended up being.
Kaworu, SEELE and Gendo talk about this event as Third Impact because while it didn't achieved 100% of its goal, it was still good enough for SEELE to go to the fourth and last phase of their plan, Fourth Impact, to "purify" the souls of all those that were turned to FoIs during Third Impact.

The conclusion is that for the Lilin (WILLE + Village-3), "Third Impact" and "Near Third Impact" are interchangeable terms, 3I being what was set up to happen and "Near" 3I what ended up happening.

This makes most sense. It still doesn't make sense how Kaworu states Shinji's NTI "caused" the other impact by Mark 06 even though it was restarted by a separate party. Because SEELE and Mark 06 were planning to do an impact anyway and would have done so eventually whether Shinji caused a NTI or not. It's like everybody glosses over the fact SEELE and Mark 06 caused the other impact and only blames Shinji for all of the umbrella'd events referring to "NTI".

Unless it's just an oversight or misinterpretation of Kaworu's words on the writers' part.

[ElMariachi]

This makes most sense. It still doesn't make sense how Kaworu states Shinji's NTI "caused" the other impact by Mark 06 even though it was restarted by a separate party. Because SEELE and Mark 06 were planning to do an impact anyway and would have done so eventually whether Shinji caused a NTI or not. It's like everybody glosses over the fact SEELE and Mark 06 caused the other impact and only blames Shinji for all of the umbrella'd events referring to "NTI".

Unless it's just an oversight or misinterpretation of Kaworu's words on the writers' part.

In all honesty, I don't think we'll ever get an answer, because the writers decided that it's all Shinji's fault, because that's what's necessary to move the story.

That the events shown and not shown don't line up with that guilt is because there's a missing piece we don't know, that he was scapegoated, that Anno and Co changed their mind mid-way in the story about his guilt and wrote themselves in a corner or they just genuinely thought that what was shown was enough to unequivocally establish his guilt, we'll probably never know.

That -46h shows that the death of Midori's family was due to the Impact made by Mark.06 and yet everyone still blame Shinji is for me the proof that this is what the writers want us to believe, and to make abstraction of the events in 2.0 and every discrepancies.

We didn't found anything about Shinji's guilt because there's nothing to find, this is how the writers want things to be to move the plot, and frankly, looking at the last part of Thrice, I don't think that Anno was interested in tackling that, hence the different apologizes and reconciliations happening so fast in one conversation each (Asuka, Misato+WILLE crew, Gendo). If you can make abstraction of all the contradictions and just take Thrice as Anno's meta farewell to Evangelion, then fine; if you don't because you can't find this statement of his guilt satisfying to carry the rest of the plot (and God and everyone here knows that I'm included in this category!), then you'll have to make peace with the fact that you'll never agree with Thrice, because that statement of his guilt won't change, no matter how tenuous it seems.

And that's what I'll do, I spent so much time trying to dissect every scenes, interviews and theories, waiting for new side-material in the hope to find a clue of what could had happened to finally understand with certainty if his guilt is unjust or if he's really guilty and there's a piece we missed, but this short showed me that this is a fool's errand, there's no hidden piece of lore behind this whole Trigger thing Kawory mentions: Shinji is guilty because everyone says that he's guilty, that's it, there's nothing more to look for.

I'll never agree with Thrice, which is a shame because I loved the three previous Rebuild movies and what it could bring to the table, but it never did, and no amount of virtual ink I spill will change that fact. I'll stop trying to find clues on N3I/A3I/3I whatever, I've said everything I had to say a hundred times already. I'll follow the couple of fics that were written that I felt explored the Rebuild's potential in a way more satisfying to me, and move on from this endless circle of debate.

[Konja7]

This makes most sense. It still doesn't make sense how Kaworu states Shinji's NTI "caused" the other impact by Mark 06 even though it was restarted by a separate party. Because SEELE and Mark 06 were planning to do an impact anyway and would have done so eventually whether Shinji caused a NTI or not. It's like everybody glosses over the fact SEELE and Mark 06 caused the other impact and only blames Shinji for all of the umbrella'd events referring to "NTI".

Honestly, it isn't so difficult to understand why Shinji is blamed. Shinji's N3I (Eva-01 opening the Gates of Guf) still caused the Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0. SEELE may need to restart it, but it was Shinji who started it.

It isn't so weird why humans blame Shinji: He started the disaster, SEELE continued it. It wasn't even Shinji who paused the event in 2.0

You could say Shinji shouldn't be blamed because it wasn't intentional. However, if writers considered his inintentionality was an excuse, Shinji couldn't be blamed for any destruction in the story.


SEELE planning a Third Impact without involving Ev-01 isn't really important, because this situation wasn't happening at the end. Not to mention that we don't even know if SEELE's original plan for Third Impact could happen (as I mentioned SEELE has many things against their original plan).

Also, NERV/SEELE is definitely also blamed for the state of the Earth. That's why they are considered WILLE's enemy.


PS: That said, it's still possible there is more in the story. We still don't know why Eva-01 was sent to the space. There are many mysteries in all the event.

[Szmitten]

Some may know I'm planning an Eva 2.5 thing and I'm loathe to mention any of it since it's just a pseudo-fanfic thing but it does force me to look at every piece of material, as logically as I can, while maintaining something of character and narrative - and can give me a fraction of alternative insight.

Also worth keeping in mind that you interpret this story from Shinji's POV; Q was literally redesigned around the idea of Shinji waking up in an upside-down world where everyone hates him for no reason and why is everyone being mean to me, of course that's Rei Misato she's right there you don't know anything, comfort me Kaworu - and subsequently continuing his path of stubborn destruction by pulling spears despite Kaworu's protests and realising his failure too late, hence his self-destruction and vow of silence for the first hour of Shin. It's hard for you, as an audience, to break from that perspective since that's what was deliberately fed to you - if you had a POV of anyone else, you'd obviously understand their feelings better.

When Kaworu talks about humanity as a whole, you have to keep in mind that at that point that "humanity" is 99.9% gone and all that's left that we see live in Village-3 (thousands at most), staff Wunder (hundreds at most), and hang out in NeoNerv HQ (two feat. 2+ not-quite-humans). Outside of the classmates who forgive Shinji anyway, most of Village-3 don't know Shinji or care in Shin. Wunder staff certainly give him the stinkeye, but that's also because most of them experienced such a significant loss (whether their lives or their loved ones) that they joined an organisation built to undo it. But even then, only Midori and Sakura feel anything particularly potent.

Mari and Ritsuko are pretty ambivalent about him, so the source of ire is directly from Asuka and Misato. Asuka we understand by now as it's a jumble of her own feelings and his inaction with Eva-03 (but subsequent action with Rei) primarily before any Impact resumption. With Misato, yes there's a hypocrisy with her encouraging him in 2.0 then admonishing him 14 year later, but that's literally addressed in her arc in Shin. From her perspective, she loses all of the men in her life to Impacts, her father in 2I, her ward in N3I, and her lover in 3I. But also, would you feel better if you were presented with a 2.5 narrative where [warning, conjecture]

SPOILER: Show

Misato continues to support Shinji despite being gone, and wholly believes he will come back and continues to put her faith in him, but when Third Impact happens and Eva-01 is involved, yet he still doesn't wake up to stop it, and Kaji has to die, wouldn't she feel betrayed? Likewise, if Commander Kaworu shows up mid-3I and says "This is still the Third Impact that Shinji started, but now Mark.06 is in control. It is two halves of the same Impact."

- would something as simple as that make the whole thing more palatable?

[Konja7]

That -46h shows that the death of Midori's family was due to the Impact made by Mark.06 and yet everyone still blame Shinji is for me the proof that this is what the writers want us to believe, and to make abstraction of the events in 2.0 and every discrepancies.

Yeah. I was totally sure the writers's intent is to blame Shinji for the state of the World since 3.0+1.0. The story doesn't really make sense if this isn't the case.

That said, I'm pretty sure we've never supposed to doubt Kaworu's words. So, the writers intent to blame Shinji existed from 3.0, it was just confusing due to the mystery in that movie.

When Kaworu talks about humanity as a whole, you have to keep in mind that at that point that "humanity" is 99.9% gone and all that's left that we see live in Village-3 (thousands at most), staff Wunder (hundreds at most), and hang out in NeoNerv HQ (two feat. 2+ not-quite-humans). Outside of the classmates who forgive Shinji anyway, most of Village-3 don't know Shinji or care in Shin. Wunder staff certainly give him the stinkeye, but that's also because most of them experienced such a significant loss (whether their lives or their loved ones) that they joined an organisation built to undo it. But even then, only Midori and Sakura feel anything particularly potent.

It's mentioned there are other Villages, which are connected due to Kredit.

Kensuke and Touji don't reveal Shinji's identity to Village-3 inhabitants. Shinj's classmate aside, the only other person in Village-3 who knows Shinji's identity is Hikaru's father. It's implied he feels hostility towards Shinji, the reason why it's best for Shinji to stay on Kensuke's house.

So, I think humans really blame Shinji, but we don't have the opportunity to see more reactions.

But also, would you feel better if you were presented with a 2.5 narrative where [warning, conjecture]

SPOILER: Show

Misato continues to support Shinji despite being gone, and wholly believes he will come back and continues to put her faith in him, but when Third Impact happens and Eva-01 is involved, yet he still doesn't wake up to stop it, and Kaji has to die, wouldn't she feel betrayed? Likewise, if Commander Kaworu shows up mid-3I and says "This is still the Third Impact that Shinji started, but now Mark.06 is in control. It is two halves of the same Impact."

In itself, the failures of the Infinity being copies of Eva-01 is a big hint that the Third Impact is a continuation of the N3I.

That said, I'm pretty sure Misato and WILLE have more infomation about how SEELE used Eva-01 and the N3I. After all, she was relatively close to Lilith/Mark-06.

[DantesInferno]

In itself, the failures of the Infinity being copies of Eva-01 is a big hint that the Third Impact is a continuation of the N3I.

That said, I'm pretty sure Misato and WILLE have more infomation about how SEELE used Eva-01 and the N3I. After all, she was relatively close to Lilith/Mark-06.

My favorite YouTube channel "Eyes Only" recently posted a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFd8tewqTzY) (Japanese only) where, based in the info gathered from -46h, they speculate that (TL;DR):

1. The inifinities were already created at the moment of N3I, as suggested by Ritsuko's dialogue at the end of 2.0 (the one about a new life form defying the laws of this world being created, and in exchange the old life forms being sacrificed), and

2. SEELE/Nerv still needed to do Third Impact-proper to remove the Fruit of Knowledge (heads) from the freshly created infinities (this is explicitly shown in the flashback of Lilith/Mark.06 and the skull rain, of course).

Tangentially related, I was thinking that

SPOILER: Show

Midori says in the new footage that her family "turned read and disappeared".

This doesn't sound like tanging at all; in both instances of tanging we see on-screen (Kuronami and Fuyutsuki), the LCL that makes up the lilim is visibly orange in color (very much like in NGE), and not red like the one the angels revert into when annihilated.

I believe that the lilim normaly collapse into orange LCL when exposed to a string enough L-field, but what transpired during Third Impact in the context of instrumentality is essentially different. I think either the people turned into core matter (red) and merged to form the infinities, or (and this one's more consistent with the video by Eyes Only) the inifinites were created out of thin air, and the lilim turned into core to merge with them.

Still not sure what to make of the purple infinities that spring during 4th impact. Misato says that 4I entails humanity merging with the inifinites; Gendo does not deny and adds that they're the souls turned into core.

And then there's the red, intert infinities that make up the second layer of the L field at Antarctica. Where do those come from? If they were created at 2I, How come they too look like Eva-01? If they were created at 3I, Why are there so many in such an unhinhaboted place?

[ChrisTamv]

Still not sure what to make of the purple infinities that spring during 4th impact. Misato says that 4I entails humanity merging with the inifinites; Gendo does not deny and adds that they're the souls turned into core.

And then there's the red, intert infinities that make up the second layer of the L field at Antarctica. Where do those come from? If they were created at 2I, How come they too look like Eva-01? If they were created at 3I, Why are there so many in such an unhinhaboted place?

Most probably it was just the bodies of every single human being that turned into FoIs during Third Impact, and it was during Fourth Impact that the souls of all of humanity were implanted into them as cores. Someone also explained how the color scheme progression of the FoIs (red -> purple -> while) also makes sense in this context. I don't remember much, however their transition to while color was certainly meant to symbolize their purification. And well, what was the objective of Fourth Impact? To purify the souls of course.

[Konja7]

1. The inifinities were already created at the moment of N3I, as suggested by Ritsuko's dialogue at the end of 2.0 (the one about a new life form defying the laws of this world being created, and in exchange the old life forms being sacrificed), and
2. SEELE/Nerv still needed to do Third Impact-proper to remove the Fruit of Knowledge (heads) from the freshly created infinities (this is explicitly shown in the flashback of Lilith/Mark.06 and the skull rain, of course).

It's a good theory.

If I'm not mistaken, Ritsuko was speaking about Eva-01 at that time, but it's possible the Third Impact in 2.0 would create Eva-01 copies (sacrificing all humanity for this).


That said, I know SEELE wanted to create a new race with Fruit of Life and without Fruit of Knowledge. However, it would be weird that SEELE couldn't accept a rampant Third Impact only because the "not Fruit of Knowledge" part isn't fulfilled.

The restart of the Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0 seem to use a lot more elements than the restart of the The Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0 (an Angel and the Black Moon Spear). This is likely because SEELE wouldn't want to restart an uncontrollable Third Impact.


PS: SEELE or Gendo could let the Fourth Impact to be rampant because the main function is "purify" the souls.

[DantesInferno]

It's a good theory.

If I'm not mistaken, Ritsuko was speaking about Eva-01 at that time, but it's possible the Third Impact in 2.0 would create Eva-01 copies (sacrificing all humanity for this).

No, that's the whole point of the video: We are led to believe Ritsuko is speaking about the pseudo-deified, glowing Eva-01 that is on screen before our eyes, but in reality she was talking about the Eva infinities, that were part of the instrumentality plan all along. Of course, the audience won't have a clue of any of this until the next movie, during Kaworu's exposition outside of Nerv HQ, the content of which strongly resembles that by Ritsuko: the creation of a new life form (endowed with the Fruit of Life), in exchange for which, the preexisting life must perish.

Of course, this does not prove that the infinities were created at N3I; it is very possible that Ritsuko is merely stating what is expected to happen if Third Impact proceeds to completion uninterrupted (which it doesn't, post-credits!).

[nerv bae]

And then there's the red, intert infinities that make up the second layer of the L field at Antarctica. Where do those come from? If they were created at 2I, How come they too look like Eva-01? If they were created at 3I, Why are there so many in such an unhinhaboted place?

Maybe they hitched a ride south inside the black moon? It did seem full to bursting with them towards the end of 3.0.

[Blockio]

That -46h shows that the death of Midori's family was due to the Impact made by Mark.06 and yet everyone still blame Shinji is for me the proof that this is what the writers want us to believe, and to make abstraction of the events in 2.0 and every discrepancies.

I am puzzled why you think that 06 is responsible for the Impact. We never got anything resembling confirmation on that, and the fact that the Wanderers have 01 heads instead of 06 heads points quite squarely in the other direction regarding the culprit