Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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torts92
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Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby torts92 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:58 am

In Rebuild, an impact is caused by the awakening of a Seed of Life. When Lilith crashed landed on Earth and awakens, it caused the first impact that annihilate all life forms on Earth at the time. Lilith then spread the primordial ooze from which "normal" terrestrial life on Earth evolved over the course of billions of years, which culminated in the human race. It’s incorrectly assumed that the impact was caused by a literal impact of Lilith’s vessel, the Black Moon colliding with Earth. But in actuality, the awakening of a Seed of Life is the impact trigger. So now we know what can actually trigger an impact and the effect of an impact (destroy life). This is crucial to know where Instrumentality fits in all this.

Unlike NGE, in Rebuild there were 4 Adams that landed on Earth instead of the 1 in NGE. But their nature were nevertheless the same, they were counted collectively as a Seed of Life. But due to the law set by the First Ancestral Race that only 1 Seed of Life should awaken on a planet, the Adams were suspended in animation. But in the year 2000, the Katsuragi Expedition caused the Adams to awaken (by pulling out the mechanism that held them suspended in all this time, the Spear of Longinus). And as mentioned earlier, an awakening of a Seed of Life is the trigger for an impact to occur, so the Adams awakening caused the second impact, but it was shortly averted. It wasn’t a full impact like the first, so only half of the human population were wiped out.

In NGE it was clear how they averted the full second impact, the scientists used the Lance of Longinus to subdue Adam and reduce it to an embryonic state. But in Rebuild, the second impact itself or something the scientists did manage to subdue the 4 Adams, though only 3 of them survived from this event. The three-eyed Adam turned into EVA 01, the other 2 surviving Adams turned into EVA 13 and Mark 06 respectively. And the one Adam that did not survive wholly, reduced to become the Nebuchadnezzar’s Key (crucial in 3.0+1.0)

At the end of 2.22, near third impact occurred. For the longest time I thought the trigger for this particular impact followed the confusing rule set in NGE about the merger of Adam and Lilith, or Angel and Lilith, or Angel and Adam, whatever, it was just too confusing. Now in the Rebuild, it seemed that Anno has simplified the rule of the impact trigger, which is simply the awakening of a Seed of Life. Unlike in NGE, EVA 01 in Rebuild is an Adam, a Seed of Life. So the near third impact occurred not because of any merger between Rei, the Angel, or Shinji, but rather due to Shinji’s overwhelming desire to save Rei which awakens EVA 01. As Rey said earlier in the movie “Eva is a mirror that reflects your heart”. And probably with the help of Yui, because Yui’s soul is inside EVA 01, EVA 01 reverts back to become Adam again as Ritsuko points out the EVA is “regaining its original form", "transforming itself into a divine entity close to God" aka Adam aka a Seed of Life. This awakening caused near third impact.

So all this makes a lot more sense to me than whatever happened in EoE. To achieve Instrumentality a merger of Adam and Lilith is needed because the merger would create a superbeing that can carry out Instrumentality. It is different than an impact which effect is to wipe out all life forms on Earth and to open the Doors of Guf. In the Doors, there's the Golgotha Object which is the key to alter reality (Instrumentality). But the trigger for those 2 events are different (an impact is triggered by a Seed of Life's awakening and Instrumentality is triggered by the merger of Adam and Lilith).

But then in 3.33, there was a timeskip. And apparently in the timeskip, off screen, an actual third impact occurred in Terminal Dogma which involved Lilith, another Seed of Life. And the world was fucked up because of that particular impact and not the near third impact caused by Shinji. Can anyone explain what happened in the timeskip? And whether I was right or wrong regarding the impact trigger?

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby Lacissal » Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:59 am

torts92 wrote:Unlike NGE, in Rebuild there were 4 Adams that landed on Earth instead of the 1 in NGE. But their nature were nevertheless the same, they were counted collectively as a Seed of Life. But due to the law set by the First Ancestral Race that only 1 Seed of Life should awaken on a planet, the Adams were suspended in animation.....the Adams awakening caused the second impact, but it was shortly averted. It wasn’t a full impact like the first, so only half of the human population were wiped out.


Second Impact in Rebuild is a full Impact and isn't averted, unlike NGE where it's accidentally set off, in Shin Gendo states that the sequence of Impacts each have a distinct purpose:
Second- Purify the Seas, Third-Purify the Earth, Fourth-Purify the Souls of Humanity
Half of humanity being wiped out is more a side effect than a purposeful mass extinction

From what we know of the ADAMs in Rebuild, there's nothing to say that they're a Seed of Life, or that the concept of Seeds of Life analagous to the FAR sending out Seeds in NGE exists or Seeds with different fruits or a FAR setting rules about the Seeds merging. Lilith is the source of life on Earth and Humanity, but that could be more like plenty of stories in other media where humanity is more the creation of a demiurge than the FAR souls of NGE. Gendo's line about the spears and the ADAMs being left behind in the anti-Universe makes me think that they only came through to Earth at Second Impact.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby Konja7 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:14 am

View Original Posttorts92 wrote:But then in 3.33, there was a timeskip. And apparently in the timeskip, off screen, an actual third impact occurred in Terminal Dogma which involved Lilith, another Seed of Life. And the world was fucked up because of that particular impact and not the near third impact caused by Shinji. Can anyone explain what happened in the timeskip? And whether I was right or wrong regarding the impact trigger?

The Third Impact in 3.33 is one of the big mysteries from the story.

In 3.33, Kaworu says the Near Third Impact was the trigger to bring about the Third Impact (which makes the red land). We don't know how this exactly works, but that is the reason why Shinji is blamed by humanity for the state of the World.

That said, the Near Third Impact seems to have been destructive by itself, since people died on that.



View Original PostLacissal wrote:Second Impact in Rebuild is a full Impact and isn't averted, unlike NGE where it's accidentally set off, in Shin Gendo states that the sequence of Impacts each have a distinct purpose:
Second- Purify the Seas, Third-Purify the Earth, Fourth-Purify the Souls of Humanity
Half of humanity being wiped out is more a side effect than a purposeful mass extinction

I think it's possible the Second Impact needed to be stopped too. Although the purification of the seas is the less dangerous for humanity, the Impact still seems to have a pretty destructive power.

There is no implication that an Impact will stop (and the Gates of Guf will close) after the Impact achieves its purpose of purification. The Third Impact wasn't stopped just because the land becomes red. Kaji's sactifice was still needed to stop it.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby deepseawaterport » Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:02 am

I don't understand, where it is implied in the rebuilds that Eva 01 is made from an Adam?

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby nerv bae » Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:02 am

View Original Postdeepseawaterport wrote:I don't understand, where it is implied in the rebuilds that Eva 01 is made from an Adam?

Will quote myself from another thread:

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:From my catching-up reading over the last month, there appear to be a few competing theories about the Adams, which (including this one) are:

1) The Adams' Vessels are the radiant giants at Second Impact
2) The four Wunder-class ships are the radiant giants at Second Impact
3) Eva-13, Eva-01, Eva Mark.6, and maybe the Key (?) are the radiant giants at Second Impact

I'm not aware if any of these theories has been picked out as a winner yet.

Leading evidence for #3 includes Ritsuko's 2.22 dialog as pointed out in the first post above, as well as the crime scene outline at the beginning of 1.11.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby The18°angel » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:11 pm

a question if for an impact to be made an angel that must be sacrificed is required, an evangelion and the spears how it was that the second impact was made then, how it was controlled and how it was that Misato survived that impact. or was there a evangelion that was used in the second impact?

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby DantesInferno » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:07 am

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:
1) The Adams' Vessels are the radiant giants at Second Impact
2) The four Wunder-class ships are the radiant giants at Second Impact
3) Eva-13, Eva-01, Eva Mark.6, and maybe the Key (?) are the radiant giants at Second Impact

I'm not aware if any of these theories has been picked out as a winner yet.

Leading evidence for #3 includes Ritsuko's 2.22 dialog as pointed out in the first post above, as well as the crime scene outline at the beginning of 1.11.


I've been thinking about this recently.

Eva-13 is definitely an Adams: Mari refers to it as a/the surviving Adams (determinacy is ambiguous in Japanese), and we can see it in the Dead See Scrolls in its four-armed glory, leading four lesser winged beings (with skulls for heads, nonetheless...).

Eva-01, I think the biggest argument is its duality with Eva-13, and the fact that Ritsuko mentions that it has "returned to its original form" during N3I.

Mark-06, apparently the removed scene of it being blown into the Moon during 2I isn't as definitive as I though (I haven't seen the material my self)... My main argument for it being an Adams from 2I stems for the fact that going through all the troiuble to build an Eva on the Moon from scratch would be prohibitively expensive in terms of resources and operational logistics (every facility has to be airtight, every pound of material has to be flown there), especially in the post-2I world... all just to hide itsconstruction from Gendo, who is one shuttle away from seeing it?

The key... I've discussed on other thread that it is what made Kaworu special as the First Angel a.k.a. God, and his loss of it (perhaps as a result of 2I or some other catastrophic event) "downgraded" him to a "regular" angel status, and this becomes explicitly evident only when Wille's choker detects its until there not-on-record (and thus new) blue pattern signal, labelling him the 13th (and Gendo, who taken s the Key in, becomes the First Angel/God in his place, "dethroning" him).

So, definitely not an Adams. Even though its role ends up being pretty much the same as the "Adam" embryo from NGE (i.e., giving Gendo FoL powers to achieve his goal)...

---

The bigger question in my opinion is... What's the deal with the ships? Mari refers to them as Adams when she bids them farewell. Misato sees a connection with 2I when she sees them spreading wings of light, to which Ritsuko corrects that they were built as guardians of the gates, and thus cannot possibly be triggers.

The above implies that the four winged figures seen at the 2I flashback were the triggers. It also implies that the ships were built, and there's talk about an "original construction plan of four ships total" (just before the Wunder is ambushed by the fourth ship from underneath). But perhaps this simply refers to retrofitting done on top of existing, ancient entities. At several instances in both 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 Wille crew talk about "retrofitting work" being done/stopped/resumed on the Wunder, but this could refer to the modifications done to transform a Nerv/Seele-spec ship into a Wille-spec one.

Perhaps the four figures at 2I are the Adams (the 2.0 preview seems to call them that way at least), or at least the four "lesser" ones, which were all blown up as a result of the impact.

And the ships are simply artificial recreations of them, perhaps even salvaging their souls (whatever that might mean), undertaken by Nerv/Seele in order to carry over the 4I. And the four Adams vessels are similarly manufactured to serve as the ships' cores and containers (i.e., vessels) of the salvaged Adams's souls.

---

So to recap, the original 4 (lesser) Adams were the triggers of 2I, but after being destroyed there, they were salvaged into the ships (or rather, the Vessels? or something in between?), which were built with the express purpose of guarding the gate, this time with some failsafes built in, physically barring them from ever becoming triggers again.

As for the central, "5th" Adams, it was literally the First Angel a.k.a. God. As a result of 2I, it lost its soul (and the key), but the body remained almost intact, and later retrofitted by Nerv into Eva-13 (hence the monikers "Surviving Adams" and "God's Eva"). The key was recovered somehow, and the soul was salvaged by Seele, using "coffin technology", into the gray haired lilim-like body that we all know and love (#nohomo).

Does it make sense?

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby torts92 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:00 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:
SPOILER: Show
View Original Postnerv bae#931767 wrote:Leading evidence for #3 includes Ritsuko's 2.22 dialog as pointed out in the first post above, as well as the crime scene outline at the beginning of 1.11.


I've been thinking about this recently.

Eva-13 is definitely an Adams: Mari refers to it as a/the surviving Adams (determinacy is ambiguous in Japanese), and we can see it in the Dead See Scrolls in its four-armed glory, leading four lesser winged beings (with skulls for heads, nonetheless...).

Eva-01, I think the biggest argument is its duality with Eva-13, and the fact that Ritsuko mentions that it has "returned to its original form" during N3I.

Mark-06, apparently the removed scene of it being blown into the Moon during 2I isn't as definitive as I though (I haven't seen the material my self)... My main argument for it being an Adams from 2I stems for the fact that going through all the troiuble to build an Eva on the Moon from scratch would be prohibitively expensive in terms of resources and operational logistics (every facility has to be airtight, every pound of material has to be flown there), especially in the post-2I world... all just to hide itsconstruction from Gendo, who is one shuttle away from seeing it?

The key... I've discussed on other thread that it is what made Kaworu special as the First Angel a.k.a. God, and his loss of it (perhaps as a result of 2I or some other catastrophic event) "downgraded" him to a "regular" angel status, and this becomes explicitly evident only when Wille's choker detects its until there not-on-record (and thus new) blue pattern signal, labelling him the 13th (and Gendo, who taken s the Key in, becomes the First Angel/God in his place, "dethroning" him).

So, definitely not an Adams. Even though its role ends up being pretty much the same as the "Adam" embryo from NGE (i.e., giving Gendo FoL powers to achieve his goal)...

---

The bigger question in my opinion is... What's the deal with the ships? Mari refers to them as Adams when she bids them farewell. Misato sees a connection with 2I when she sees them spreading wings of light, to which Ritsuko corrects that they were built as guardians of the gates, and thus cannot possibly be triggers.

The above implies that the four winged figures seen at the 2I flashback were the triggers. It also implies that the ships were built, and there's talk about an "original construction plan of four ships total" (just before the Wunder is ambushed by the fourth ship from underneath). But perhaps this simply refers to retrofitting done on top of existing, ancient entities. At several instances in both 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 Wille crew talk about "retrofitting work" being done/stopped/resumed on the Wunder, but this could refer to the modifications done to transform a Nerv/Seele-spec ship into a Wille-spec one.

Perhaps the four figures at 2I are the Adams (the 2.0 preview seems to call them that way at least), or at least the four "lesser" ones, which were all blown up as a result of the impact.

And the ships are simply artificial recreations of them, perhaps even salvaging their souls (whatever that might mean), undertaken by Nerv/Seele in order to carry over the 4I. And the four Adams vessels are similarly manufactured to serve as the ships' cores and containers (i.e., vessels) of the salvaged Adams's souls.

---

So to recap, the original 4 (lesser) Adams were the triggers of 2I, but after being destroyed there, they were salvaged into the ships (or rather, the Vessels? or something in between?), which were built with the express purpose of guarding the gate, this time with some failsafes built in, physically barring them from ever becoming triggers again.

As for the central, "5th" Adams, it was literally the First Angel a.k.a. God. As a result of 2I, it lost its soul (and the key), but the body remained almost intact, and later retrofitted by Nerv into Eva-13 (hence the monikers "Surviving Adams" and "God's Eva"). The key was recovered somehow, and the soul was salvaged by Seele, using "coffin technology", into the gray haired lilim-like body that we all know and love (#nohomo).

Does it make sense?


I think of all the theory/explanation on Rebuild that I've read here and on reddit, yours make sense the most. Though I have to rewatch the movies a couple more times to fully grasp the nuance. Thanks for the reply.

Do not quote an entire post. Huge quote put under a spoiler tag - JoelcrNeto

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby The18°angel » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:06 pm

a question if to stop the third impact Kaji had to sacrifice himself and to stop the fourth impact kaworu had to do the same then that means that the sacrifice to stop the N3I were the lives of the civilians who apparently died during this impact in tokyo 03 ? because according to my understanding in 3.0 the spears are not enough to stop unit 13.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:51 pm

View Original PostThe18°angel wrote:a question if to stop the third impact Kaji had to sacrifice himself and to stop the fourth impact kaworu had to do the same then that means that the sacrifice to stop the N3I were the lives of the civilians who apparently died during this impact in tokyo 03 ? because according to my understanding in 3.0 the spears are not enough to stop unit 13.

We can't be sure if the N3I was totally stopped in 2.0. There seems to be a connection between N3I and the Third Impact, but we don't exactly know what happened.

That said, in 3.0, Mari mentioned that Shinji was SEELE's back-up to mantain the Gates of Guff opened. So, I think this implies the two Spears should stop the Fourth Impact (Kaworu mentioned he will close the Gates of Guff), but Shinji's presence inside Eva-13 continued it


PS: Even if a sacrifice is necessary to stop an Impact, the Gates of Guff for the Fourth Impact in 3.0 didn't close after Kaworu's death either.
Last edited by Konja7 on Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:51 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby DantesInferno » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:52 pm

View Original Posttorts92 wrote:I think of all the theory/explanation on Rebuild that I've read here and on reddit, yours make sense the most. Though I have to rewatch the movies a couple more times to fully grasp the nuance. Thanks for the reply.


You're welcome. I think it just builds on a lot of discussion that's been happening here, really.

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:That said, in 3.0, Mari mentioned that Shinji was SEELE's back-up to mantain the Gates of Guff opened. So, I think this implies the two Spears should stop the Fourth Impact (Kaworu mentioned he will close the Gates of Guff), but Shinji's presence inside Eva-13 continued it

PS: Even if there is a sacrifice rule to stop an Impact, the Gates of Guff for the Fourth Impact don't closed even after Kaworu's death.


I think the spears have little to do in the case of fourth impact; nothing really substantial happens when Eva-13 is impaled by both. Or perhaps it kinda 'helps' in some way, but it's not enough (even with one pilot alone). The sequence of events and dialogue suggest it is removing all the pilots what closes the gates, hence Shinji being the "insurance policy" (or "redundancy") if you will.

This of course is in stark contrast with N3I, which was literally stopped by the spear and it alone (no pilot was even harmed in the process).

Perhaps the specific way in which the Cassius spear impaled Eva-01 "disabled" the pilot or severed its link with the unit (without killing him), and perhaps this was what caused him to be absorbed into the Eva (we know for a fact that Shinji --together with the S-DAT-- was not merely lying dormant inside the entry plug, but rather absorbed, and 'physically recreated' 14 years later).

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:15 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:I think the spears have little to do in the case of fourth impact; nothing really substantial happens when Eva-13 is impaled by both. Or perhaps it kinda 'helps' in some way, but it's not enough (even with one pilot alone). The sequence of events and dialogue suggest it is removing all the pilots what closes the gates, hence Shinji being the "insurance policy" (or "redundancy") if you will.


Kaworu says this:

Kaworu: "I'll close the Gates of Guf. You don't have to worry Shinji"

Kaworu says this just before Eva-13 is impaled by the two Spears of Longinus, I think this implies Kaworu caused this impalement to try to stop the Fourth Impact.

Also, after Eva-13 is impaled by the two Spears of Longinus, the eyes of Eva-13 turned-off and it started to fall. And Mari mentioned this:

Mari: The gates of Guf aren't closing yet. Our little doggy must be SEELE's insurance policy!



PS: I guess there is the option that Kaworu activated the DSS Choker to try to close the Gates of Duf with his own death. However, it seems unlikely, since the DSS Choker seems to be activated by Eva-13 awakening.

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Postby The18°angel » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:50 pm

If WILLE knows that to cause an impact an angel needs to be sacrificed and that an eva must devour him then why

a) let Asuka be part of the offensive against unit 13.
b) equip unit 02 with the "blood" of the ninth angel if the whole purpose of that organization is to prevent an awakening from an EVA or impact.
c)give Asuka the codes to turn herself into an angel.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby DantesInferno » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:50 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:Kaworu says this:

Kaworu: "I'll close the Gates of Guf. You don't have to worry Shinji"

Kaworu says this just before Eva-13 is impaled by the two Spears of Longinus, I think this implies Kaworu caused this impalement to try to stop the Fourth Impact.

Also, after Eva-13 is impaled by the two Spears of Longinus, the eyes of Eva-13 turned-off and it started to fall. And Mari mentioned this:

Mari: The gates of Guf aren't closing yet. Our little doggy must be SEELE's insurance policy!

PS: I guess there is the option that Kaworu activated the DSS Choker to try to close the Gates of Duf with his own death. However, it seems unlikely, since the DSS Choker seems to be activated by Eva-13 awakening.


There definitely is something going on with the spears, and the bulging /unbulging of the eyes and Eva awakening. When earlier in Q Kaworu tells Shinji that "By awakening and opening the Gates of Guf, Eva-01 became the trigger..." we are shown the exact cut of Eva-01's eyes glowing red and bulging out if their sockets.

But I still think that by "I'll close the gates" what Kaworu meant was to let himself be killed by the choker (he was "holding it" until then, so he could at least give his farewell Shinji. The choker activated by itself when it detected a new pattern blue).

Nothing visible happens to the gates when the the spears implae 13 (iirc), and it starts to fall (but still glowing white!) only after Kaworu is killed. The gates finally close when Shinji is pulled out of the Eva.

But this whole thing seems to be quite convoluted and inconsistent between Eva-01/Third Impact and Eva-13 / Fourth Impact, so there's that (I'm not "set" either way). I wonder if it will ever fully make sense.

View Original PostThe18°angel wrote:If WILLE knows that to cause an impact an angel needs to be sacrificed and that an eva must devour him then why

a) let Asuka be part of the offensive against unit 13.
b) equip unit 02 with the "blood" of the ninth angel if the whole purpose of that organization is to prevent an awakening from an EVA or impact.
c)give Asuka the codes to turn herself into an angel.


This is puzzling; Assuming she could take the patch/pillar out on her own and risk activating the choker (this part does make sense), why go all the way to equip Eva-02 with those "angel blood" injectors? And is it the blood from the 9th angel, or some other? Why did they know to "keep it around" back then by the time of 2.0?

She mentions neutralizing Eva-02's ATF-Field with her own; I think it's obvious the two extra arms that are spawned (reiniscent of the 9th angel/Eva-03) and break through are exactly that. Why did Eva-02 need to be injected with the blood? Perhaps to "justify" the flashy visuals of the enlarged, glowing/translucent Eva-02 that we got in the end? There's a lot to unpack in this scene too...

And how did Gendo know they would send Asuka with the abort signal entry plug, and not Mari?

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:05 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:But I still think that by "I'll close the gates" what Kaworu meant was to let himself be killed by the choker (he was "holding it" until then, so he could at least give his farewell Shinji. The choker activated by itself when it detected a new pattern blue).

I guess it's possible Kaworu could "hold" the explosion, but he allowed it to stop the Fourth Impact with his death.

That said, I'm not totally sure if Kaworu is really "holding it". The DSS Choker could really take time to activate the bomb (as we see in Asuka's case).


View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:Nothing visible happens to the gates when the the spears implae 13 (iirc), and it starts to fall (but still glowing white!) only after Kaworu is killed. The gates finally close when Shinji is pulled out of the Eva.

I would say the reason for the fall of Eva-13 is confusing, because Kaworu's death happened just after Eva-13 is impaled by the two Spears.

Eva-13 being impaled by the Spears seems to cause something, since Eva-13 was put in a strange position and purple sparkles appeared. However, Kaworu death happened right after this. So, it's confusing what caused the unbulging of Eva-13's eyes and its fall.



PS: I really hope the CRC of 3.0 could cast light about this situation.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby nerv bae » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:28 pm

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:And how did Gendo know they would send Asuka with the abort signal entry plug, and not Mari?

If Wille sent Mari with the abort plug instead of Asuka, perhaps unit 13 would have still awakened and eliminated unit 08 on its way to unit 02? Asuka might have pulled the angel blood trick even when facing an awakened unit 13 rather than a dormant one.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby DantesInferno » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:50 am

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I guess it's possible Kaworu could "hold" the explosion, but he allowed it to stop the Fourth Impact with his death.

That said, I'm not totally sure if Kaworu is really "holding it". The DSS Choker could really take time to activate the bomb (as we see in Asuka's case).


It took what seemed an etrrnity in Kaworu's case, compared to Asuka. Also, it blew up just after Kaworu said his farewell. I'm dead sure he was holding it somehow (or Kaworu, using his superhuman perception, somehow knew the exact time it would blow up, and timed his final speech accordingly).


View Original PostKonja7 wrote:I would say the reason for the fall of Eva-13 is confusing, because Kaworu's death happened just after Eva-13 is impaled by the two Spears.

Eva-13 being impaled by the Spears seems to cause something, since Eva-13 was put in a strange position and purple sparkles appeared. However, Kaworu death happened right after this. So, it's confusing what caused the unbulging of Eva-13's eyes and its fall.

PS: I really hope the CRC of 3.0 could cast light about this situation.


Yeah. Also, I need to watch Q for 9999-th time :D

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:If Wille sent Mari with the abort plug instead of Asuka, perhaps unit 13 would have still awakened and eliminated unit 08 on its way to unit 02? Asuka might have pulled the angel blood trick even when facing an awakened unit 13 rather than a dormant one.


I guess that makes sense; Gendo knew Asuka was coming, one way or the other.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby The18°angel » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:40 am

View Original Postnerv bae wrote:
View Original PostDantesInferno#932179 wrote:And how did Gendo know they would send Asuka with the abort signal entry plug, and not Mari?

If Wille sent Mari with the abort plug instead of Asuka, perhaps unit 13 would have still awakened and eliminated unit 08 on its way to unit 02? Asuka might have pulled the angel blood trick even when facing an awakened unit 13 rather than a dormant one.


Unit 13 only woke up after devouring Asuka who had become the 9th Angel, at that point the Eva 13 was inert until Asuka revived the 9th Angel, at which point the Eva reactivated but did not wake up, it only destroyed Unit 02 later when he ate Asuka was when Eva woke up, it is easy to assume that if Asuka does not revive on the 9th there would be no final impact because unit 13 could not wake up because there would not be an angel to sacrifice to achieve it.

Which makes me wonder again what was the point where WILLE would allow that to happen, why they would keep the necessary elements to revive a dead angel and why they would equip that in unit 02 allowing Asuka to become an angel. taking into account that Misato was always the kind of person who was basically "all angels must die regardless of the price" and at this point WILLE should know how an impact occurs then why keep the necessary elements to revive one dead angel in the first place?

(although of course taking into account that Kaji's original plan for WILLE was basically to launch into space the necessary elements for life forms on earth to continue elsewhere, it is possible that WILLE's original goal was never to stop an impact or win the war and that that only changed when Misato took control of the organization).

And let's not get into the fact that now unit 02 is apparently the same as unit 01 being able to do things on its own against the pilot's wishes. something that should only be possible for unit 01 because it has yui and Rei trapped inside.

and examining 2.0 and 3.0 there seems to be a difference between "awaking" an eva and that same eva causing an impact by opening the gauf doors.
at first ritsuko seemed more concerned about the fact that Shinji would stop being human, until unit 01 reached the angel and ripped the S2 organ from it causing the N3I, something that is repeated with the unit 06 lillith and the 12th angel and later also with unit 13 and the 12th angel.

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby Konja7 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:52 am

View Original PostDantesInferno wrote:It took what seemed an etrrnity in Kaworu's case, compared to Asuka. Also, it blew up just after Kaworu said his farewell. I'm dead sure he was holding it somehow (or Kaworu, using his superhuman perception, somehow knew the exact time it would blow up, and timed his final speech accordingly).

To be fair, the DSS Choker seems to be ridiculously convenient with the time :rolleyes:

Asuka's DSS Choker activated when she started to use 9th Angel power, but the bomb did not appear until she ripped off her plugsuit (when Original Shikinami was close to Asuka).

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Re: Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

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Postby nerv bae » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:57 am

View Original PostThe18°angel wrote:
View Original Postnerv bae#932182 wrote:If Wille sent Mari with the abort plug instead of Asuka, perhaps unit 13 would have still awakened and eliminated unit 08 on its way to unit 02? Asuka might have pulled the angel blood trick even when facing an awakened unit 13 rather than a dormant one.

Unit 13 only woke up after devouring Asuka who had become the 9th Angel, at that point the Eva 13 was inert until Asuka revived the 9th Angel, at which point the Eva reactivated but did not wake up, it only destroyed Unit 02 later when he ate Asuka was when Eva woke up, it is easy to assume that if Asuka does not revive on the 9th there would be no final impact because unit 13 could not wake up because there would not be an angel to sacrifice to achieve it.

Right, my bad, I should have written "an activated unit 13" in my post, not "an awakened unit 13". I agree with your timeline here but I want to interject that unit 13's activation (pre-awakening) is not apparently triggered in a metaphysics sense by anything Asuka does. Unit 13's activation includes the remote/automatic withdrawal of the spears, the hands slipping through the restraints, and rising into an upright posture, all after Asuka has done her angel blood trick. But, it seems to me like this isn't in response to a trigger, but could just be in response to the pilots' (original Asuka and zombie Kaworu) ordinary commands to spring their "unit 13 is playing possum" trap. They could have sprung the same trap against Mari in unit 08 if she had come instead of Asuka, long before the angel blood trick. Does that sound right?

View Original PostThe18°angel wrote:Which makes me wonder again what was the point where WILLE would allow that to happen, why they would keep the necessary elements to revive a dead angel and why they would equip that in unit 02 allowing Asuka to become an angel. taking into account that Misato was always the kind of person who was basically "all angels must die regardless of the price" and at this point WILLE should know how an impact occurs then why keep the necessary elements to revive one dead angel in the first place?

My on-the-spot theory this morning: Wille equips unit 02 this way because they never expect Asuka to remove the pillar from her eye; doing so is suicidal thanks to her DSS choker. They expect that unit 02 can use the angel blood injection as a crazy power-up to the Eva, even if she leaves her pillar in-place, and that's the injection's intended use. But Asuka removes the pillar and injects the blood at the same time, triggering the choker, in a move that's not "by the book" per Wille's plans. Is this theory any good?

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:To be fair, the DSS Choker seems to be ridiculously convenient with the time :rolleyes:

Yet another morning theory: Kaworu is an electromechanical savant. Remember how he fixes the SDAT, and removes the DSS choker from Shinji's neck. Accordingly, it's simple for him to modify the DSS choker so that once it's on his own neck it doesn't explode until he tells it to.


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