How do you feel about NTE? + Rank the movies!

[UrsusArctos]

Just got around to watching it yesterday - Good on y'all for keeping this place going and merry christmas everyone.

Long time no see, Kaysow! Merry Christmas to you too! Yes, we've managed to keep this place going, although things are rather sleepier than we hoped they'd be.

You raise some interesting points regarding animation quality, character development, the battles and the ending of 3.0 + 1.0 not quite "sticking" the way EoE did. It does bring back the old question of whether Anno could've made a new original series that served as a counterpoint to Evangelion, rather than create the Rebuild movies with their explicit dependence on the old TV series and EoE. However, I get the impression that Anno is deeply emotionally attached to the characters he created (hence his bout of depression after the bleakness of the third movie) and that the new movies were his attempt to find closure for himself by giving Shinji a happy sendoff even after putting him through hell. (Too lazy to pull out any evidence for that in the time that I have at the moment)

Incidentally, I wonder what your old friend BrikHaus would think about this now that it's done? I remember he once gave Rebuild of Evangelion the "Most Pointless" award on his AwesomelyShitty blog :P

And also, the Eva Commentary is now on the way to being finished, with at least a few comments having been made for all 26 TV episodes. I can't recall if that's up your alley, but you might want to take a look at it!

[hui43210]

I finally had my 2nd watch through today. It was an even more enjoyable experience as I had proper subtitles this time rather than the dubtitles. It also subbed the music lyrics and that further enhanced the overall understanding of the movie.

Definitely my favorite film of year, I really like the first half. It has all the beauty of a Ghibli film without Miyazaki's heavy handed anti technology zealotry that can really irk me sometimes. But my favorite part is probably when Asuka goes God mode, it's just so cool, and when the ''og Asuka" menacingly drags her away it gives me chills.

In summation, the hold ups others have on this film I simply don't share. At the end of the day, the only thing that holds NTE back is the fact that my brain has to compare it NGE/EOE. NGE is my favorite anime, Eoe is one of my favorite movies period, 3.0+1.0 was never going to surpass them. So I do kinda wonder what it would have been like if Anno had gone with an original story that was Eva esque, rather than a reboot. It would have solved the connection issue, but people probably wouldn't have cared as much, so it's a catch 22 I suppose.

[roblucci01]

In summation, the hold ups others have on this film I simply don't share. At the end of the day, the only thing that holds NTE back is the fact that my brain has to compare it NGE/EOE. NGE is my favorite anime, Eoe is one of my favorite movies period, 3.0+1.0 was never going to surpass them. So I do kinda wonder what it would have been like if Anno had gone with an original story that was Eva esque, rather than a reboot. It would have solved the connection issue, but people probably wouldn't have cared as much, so it's a catch 22 I suppose.

This is a good take, and I agree. Glad you enjoyed the film. On my fourth showing in theaters, I received the "Eva Extra" pamphlet that contains artwork by the staff and a short canonical manga chapter that takes place directly before Q. I held off on reading it, because I wanted to do it on New Years Eve to wrap up my "Year of Eva". It sort of explains the meaning behind the tape on Asuka's red plugsuit, and further explores her emotional connection to Shinji.

I do also agree that the original series + EoE (minus episodes 25 and 26) is definitively better than NTE. I also think that if we disregard EoE and consider 25 and 26 the ending to NGE, then NTE is better by a LONG shot.

End of Evangelion and the elements from the show that built up to it belong in my anime "Hall of Fame". For Thrice Upon A Time, I personally put it in my "Hall of Very Very Good". Critically speaking, I have a few complaints with Shin, such as CGI, and the pacing/story problems present with the prior movies really weigh it down from being nearly as good as EoE. However, after five viewings, reading the transcript, watching several videos/reading several posts analyzing the film both positively and negatively, I simply find a majority of the serious criticisms (ie not pairing related) to be exaggerated, irrelevant, or not particularly substantive. I think Thrice Upon A Time has a lot going for it and is indeed worthy of deep thematic analysis, even if it doesn't have one hundred percent of the magic EoE does. But Shin Eva definitely has some magic of its own. I have wanted to debate over this for quite some time, but I will save it for my video analysis.

[A.T. Fish]

I'm very late to this party but I finally watched the final movie a few days ago, after spending a couple months slowly going through NGE+EoE and all the previous Rebuild entries. Managed to keep myself unspoiled all this time, thankfully, because I don't think the emotional salve of the first half would've hit me the same if I knew about it. I don't really care that it seemed like something out of a fanfic, with its romantic undertones and convenient character pairings, it was still an immensely enjoyable and much needed moment of healing following the bleakness of Q. Alas, after taking off on such a high note, the movie nosedives into the mess that is the entire midsection and only soars to greatness once again at the very end, when we see the characters being rescued from their sorrows and delivered onto a fulfilling, unambiguously positive conclusion to the entire franchise.

There's not much to say that hasn't already been said about the unnecessary clutter and over the top presentation of the action sequences, or the excessive layers of metaphysical elements we have to wade through to get to the good bits of instrumentality. They are the only things bringing the film down, in my opinion. On the other hand, what made it a rewarding experience for me, despite its flaws, was the overall message at the end. It really resonated with me because it reflects my own feelings about Eva. It will always be a story I cherish, but over the years my passion for it faded away and I'm ready to let it go.

Reading this and other threads to see what other people thought of Thrice, I found some opinions that mirror my own. In short, 3.0.+1.0 is a flawed movie but a great send-off to Evangelion as a whole. I've also seen some things in this subforum that provide new perspectives on Asuka, who I felt was the most intriguing character. It was a fairly straightforward movie but I feel like there's enough to unpack to make a rewatch worthwhile, so I'm already planning a second viewing.

[BernardoCairo]

https://t.co/Q7ETXCIoRn
Mr Incredible becoming uncanny Evangelion edition

[dzzthink]

I am on a mr incredible become uncanny binge these days. the eva ones are particularly interesting/disturbing (ships in eva version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lEFqiY_HDw)

[Archer]

Honestly, after re-visiting the Rebuilds after the initial high of 3.0+1.0 has well and truly worn off, I find the flaws much more glaring and hard to look past.

To its credit, I can squint at it and still see the rough outline of a good story there, and it’s clear from 3.0+1.0 that Anno&co. did have a vision going into it that follows from and expands on the themes of the original NGE, and weren’t just doing a soulless cash-grab on a popular IP. So at the very least, I don’t think the Rebuilds were a waste of my time. That alone puts it above like 99% of reboots and cash-grab sequels that nobody asked for.

But holy fuck is the execution flawed in so many ways, some of them (IMO) poor and tasteless artistic decisions (the entire middle act of 3.0+1.0), some of them coming from the limitations of the format (2.0 being a bloated mess that makes a just-barely-acceptable attempt at stitching familiar scenes into a new narrative when it probably would’ve been better as two movies), some of them the result of a troubled development process (the original 3.0 being scrapped). Previously I had said that I wished the Rebuilds had been either an anime series, or a 6-movie series, purely just to give it the runtime it needed. But now I’m almost thinking it would’ve worked best as just a loose sequel to NGE+EoE featuring only the story of 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 spread across 3 movies. Loose sequel meaning assuming that a similar-but-not-identical version of NGE+EoE happened prior to the events of the movie, and to hand-wave small canon inconsistencies. The only major difference necessary would be to make it so that Gendo never gets eaten by Unit 1, and that the beach scene never happens (Shinji would only get re-constituted for the first time at the beginning of what would be the first movie).

[SEELE-01]

Honestly, after re-visiting the Rebuilds after the initial high of 3.0+1.0 has well and truly worn off, I find the flaws much more glaring and hard to look past.

It was the opposite for me, albeit with the same result.
After I watched Shin I felt, more than anything, closure. But nor for the story.
Unlike NGE+EoE, in which every watching reveals some new perspective, Shin only shows more and more flaws.

At some point I even recalled Richard William's 'The thief And the Cobbler' and wondered if something like that didn't happen here.
You can see Anno's influence, but to me it feels like it was pried out of his hands by the holding companies and, seeing there was not a complete movie, they decided to put someone in charge of ending it just to get out of it.

[Konja7]

At some point I even recalled Richard William's 'The thief And the Cobbler' and wondered if something like that didn't happen here.
You can see Anno's influence, but to me it feels like it was pried out of his hands by the holding companies and, seeing there was not a complete movie, they decided to put someone in charge of ending it just to get out of it.

I don't think the holding companies have more powers in Rebuild that they have in NGE+EoE.

Maybe you don't like the movies, but I think Anno and his team would be the ones to blame for this. Also, it's pretty clear 3.0+1.0 focus in the parts that Anno really care.

[Archer]

I never really got the impression that the issues I have with the Rebuilds stemmed from corporate/shareholder meddling.

If anything, I think it’s more of a Star Wars OT vs. Prequels situation - the OT was made with a small budget and tons of restrictions, whereas with the Prequels Lucas had near-absolute creative control and as much money as he needed, which resulted in a gross excess of visuals with a potentially interesting story let down by poor execution on its fundamental elements.

[BernardoCairo]

I will be as clear as possible here.
I don't like these movies at all. I don't like their visuals and their way of handling storytelling (especially when it comes to character progression). The idea of taking something that is already completed and trying to recreate it in the form of a tetralogy is, in itself, weird to me. It actually took me a while to realize this, but I'm a fan of Evangelion and I don't need to love it all.

1.11: It's kind of redundant, but fun. The lack of material from episodes 2 and 4 really detracted from the overall flow of the narrative. However, it does some things better (the last third, in specific)

2.22: I don't have enough semantics to describe how much I dislike this movie. The pacing is atrocious, the new characters barely do anything, and the narrative fails to focus on a single set of characters, or ideas, or anything really. There's nothing here. Everything I loved about EVA was thrown out the window. In its place we have the most bare-bones script possible.

3.33: I like this one. I think it's a divisive movie because the first 30 minutes or so are boring. There is some good dialogue between Shinji and Misato (or lack thereof, if you think about it). However, the movie really picks up when Shinji enters Nerv and starts interacting with Kaworu, Ayanami, and Fuyutsuki (who are really interesting characters). The last fight drags on a bit, but it's not necessarily bad or anything.

3.0 + 1.0: It fails to exist as its own product. The movie has a good start and a great ending (if the person watching is already a fan of the series, that is). The middle is as boring as it gets, though. Mari and Asuka are just not fleshed out characters and their fight is miserable to sit through. Also, some character resolutions are a bit rushed and we all know that. Overall, it's fun (mostly because of Gendo, Ayanami and Shinji).

This is an aimless tetralogy with too many "impacts" + technobabble and too little of what made NGE special to me in the first place. Also, the fact that one of the movies was canceled but still canon is unbelievable. I don't even need to explain why that's insane.
That's my final verdict on these films. I hope you found it to be funny to read XD

[nerv bae]

3.33: I like this one. I think it's a divisive movie because the first 30 minutes or so are boring. There is some good dialogue between Shinji and Misato (or lack thereof, if you think about it). However, the movie really picks up when Shinji enters Nerv and starts interacting with Kaworu, Ayanami, and Fuyutsuki (who are really interesting characters). The last fight drags on a bit, but it's not necessarily bad or anything.

This is the first time I've read that the first third and the last third are the boring parts of 3.33! Usually I read complaints that the middle third is the boring part! Talk about a divisive movie.

[Archer]

I dunno if I found the last third boring necessarily, but it thoroughly failed to interest me. Cat Unit 2 will always be a thing that exists and I hate it.

[SEELE-01]

Also, the fact that one of the movies was canceled but still canon is unbelievable.

Wait, what?

[cyharding]

^I think what Bernardo is referring to was a rumor circulating after Q came out stating that they began production with the storyline based on what we saw in the next time preview in Ha. The production staff mutinied against this demanding something different and Anno decided on what we got in the end. I believe this has been throuoghly debunked.

[BernardoCairo]

It's not a rumor. It's reality to some extent and we have an entire thread about it.
You know that weird exchange between Kaji and Kaworu at the end of Shin? Yeah, that one in which they're dressed as commander and vice commander of Nerv. That's not random. It was a major plot point of this cancelled movie.
Kaji's death and the damn 3I that everyone keeps talking about would also be featured in this movie (along with what exactly happened to Mark 06, Lilith and Kaworu).
The things Kaworu talk about in Q were originally going to be shown.

[Konja7]

It's not a rumor. It's reality to some extent and we have an entire thread about it.
You know that weird exchange between Kaji and Kaworu at the end of Shin? Yeah, that one in which they're dressed as commander and vice commander of Nerv. That's not random. It was a major plot point of this cancelled movie.
Kaji's death and the damn 3I that everyone keeps talking about would also be featured in this movie (along with what exactly happened to Mark 06, Lilith and Kaworu).
The things Kaworu talk about in Q were originally going to be shown.

Well, the idea that the production staff mutinied against this demanding something different is a rumor.

Anno has mentioned that the reason why he doesn't follow his original idea is because he concluded it would be bad for the movie if the main character doesn't appear.

[BernardoCairo]

Oh, that's the rumor cy was referring to! I thought he was talking about the actual existence of this "lost movie", sorry. Yeah, that bit is truly a rumor.
By the way, I know Anno's reasoning. It's still a questionable decision, though. If he had scrap everything, I wouldn't really mind. Instead, he chose to keep it and not show us. Too much talk and too little action. That's not really the smartest way to progress your story and characters in my eyes. In any case, he did what he felt it was right at the time and that's ok, I guess.

[nerv bae]

Regarding boredom in the Rebuilds: Having watched the whole tetralogy several times through last year, I remember feeling bored only during 1.0's fifth angel sequence. Not sure why, but watching that sequence I just had a feeling of "yeah yeah, I know this bit, let's get on to the good stuff". Nothing else across any of the four movies gave me that sensation.

[mastafishere]

I'm 37 years old and I'm a die-hard film buff. According to my Blu-ray.com account, I own 2092 Blu-rays and 375 4k UHDs. I love all kinds of movies; mainstream, independent, action, drama, horror, etc. I'm obsessed with the art of filmmaking, stories, and storytelling. Through it all, Evangelion has remained my favorite piece of art across all medias. I've learned so much about the art of filmmaking from studying Evangelion from when I was 13 years old and its the story that connects more personally to me than any other.

Having said that, the NTE movies are my all time favorite movie series of all time. Jo and Ha were utterly perfection in my eyes. Q was a bit of a misstep that I grew to appreciate over the years but never truly love. Shin, though, brought it back around for me and is now in my sphere of greatest movies of all time (alongside Vanilla Sky and Titanic).

My ranking:
1) Evangelion 3.0 + 1.01 - Thrice Upon a Time
2) Evangelion 2.22 - You Can Not Advance
3) Evangelion 1.11 - You Are Not Alone
4) Evangelion 3.333 - You Can Not Redo

I can't disagree with people who say NTE are a shadow of NGE. NGE is certainly more groundbreaking, more nuanced, and arguably a better work of art (definitely more provocative!). The messages are so utterly beautiful that they've been a light for me in truly dark times in my life. Episode 26 and End of Evangelion in particular have had such a profound effect on me that I can't imagine what my life would have been like without them.

But NGE has stuff in it that just doesn't resonate with me the same way as it did when I was a dumb edge-lord kid. Not to mention stuff like in "Both of you Dance Like You Want To Win" which has too many problematic elements, such as Kensuke and Toji taking pictures of Asuka in her underwear, Kaji forcing herself onto Misato and Shinji nearly stealing a kiss from Asuka while she sleeps, that just horrify me as someone whose adult family is all female and makes me see the world in a different way. I'm not critiquing the episode or anyone who enjoys it; I'm all about not censoring art. But that's a personal thing that affects my viewings of the series going forward.

The NTEs are constructed by someone who has gotten better at filmmaking and is less cynical about life and humanity (IMO!!!). It's arguably more entertaining in a traditional popcorn sense, with a rousing orchestration and blockbuster level action scenes. It has its flaws (Boy howdy, does it!) but nothing offends me on a personal level like some of the more problematic elements in NGE.

So do I prefer NGE or NTE? That's impossible for me to parse out. They've both meant the world to me, both in my childhood and adulthood life and I think I will always love both of them equally. Personally, I think they compliment each other beautifully and even though I'm not a Sequel Theory believer (at least not on the level some have argued) I do see NTE as a continuation of the themes in NGE and, honestly, I can't fathom any rewatch that doesn't begin with NGE and end with Thrice Upon a Time. I love the series tremendously, warts and all (and both NGE and NTE have a TON of warts in my eyes).