How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

[Jornophelanthas]

If NTE's purpose is to declare that Shinji's relationship with past characters is 'negative' including EVA and it's time to move on, then obviously Mari's existence is the great counter-example.

I believe this is close, but not quite there.

In my opinion, the negative aspect of Shinji's relationships (both to Evangelion and to the other characters) is not focused on the past, but on the looping nature of the Evangelion universe, in which progress/advancement is not possible.

3.0+1.0 is about breaking the cycle. In order for the cycle to not continue, all major characters need to grow beyond their dependency on project Evangelion (which is what allows the cycle to persist), as well as their dependencies and hang-ups on each other, because that is what drives them to Evangelion. This does not just apply to Shinji, but to all the other pilots as well.

The Curse of EVA represents stagnation. Not just stagnation of the body that stops aging, but also stagnation of emotional growth.

Mari represents the breaking of the cycle. She is not present in the previous incarnations of NGE and EoE. She represents change, and is constantly encouraging everyone she interacts with to move forward. She is a catalyst of change, the wrench thrown into the Evangelion universe.

I have said before that Mari is the messenger. She is unable to effect change herself, but she can enable the other characters to do so. She is the one who delivers Shinji to his final destination in the Anti-Universe. While he is in there, he needs to walk his path alone (as that demonstrates his personal growth to adulthood). But she does appear again in the end, after he has seen off every other character. Again, she is the one who takes his hand and pulls him into the new world, as the messenger.

And the new world represents a post-Evangelion world, free from the cycle. Even the brief appearances of Asuka, Rei and Kaworu across the track illustrate that Shinji has moved on from them, as Mari leads him in the opposite direction.

The cycle has ended.

[Blockio]

NTE is not in the same timeline as NGE. That hypothesis has been thoroughly debunked over years and years of debate, and the only reason it is still around is because its proponents keep shifting the goalpost further away every time their claims are contradicted.
And, more pressingly, it makes not a lick of sense for another iteration of anything to happen after NGE, because the assumption that souls are permanent, that Shinji Ikari will always stay Shinji Ikari that is at the very core of the idea, throws a giant wrench into the entire theory because at the end of EoE, Yui is a god who tells the audience to our faces that she will outlast the universe as a permanent reminder of, and safe ark to humanity. She is textbook almighty, has the power to reshape reality at will; NTE happening after that would require her to make the conscious decision of giving up her core goal that she has worked towards for the course of the entire series.

So yes, on a metatextual level, Mari does represent change and breaking out of the shackles of an established formula, that is only telegraphed to the audience; in-universe, the two are separate, and Mari is just Mari, a character in the movies.

[Archer]

I don’t really think the idea that Mari is a catalyst fits with what we actually see in the movie. If we directly compare the endings of Rebuilds and NGE, the clear divergence is that by the time EoE rolls around, literally everybody in Shinji’s life that could possibly give him support is either dead (Rei II, Kaji, Kaworu), incapacitated in some manner (Rei III, Asuka, Toji, Misato) or gone (the rest of his classmates, Pen-pen); whereas in the Rebuilds, he has the mature, adult versions of his friends watching over him; Rei visiting him at the old NERV facility every day; and even Asuka skulking around in the shadows being there for him in her own way even if he doesn’t know it. It’s this, more than anything else, that aids in his “recovery”, and Mari doesn’t play a part in any of this neither directly nor indirectly. Mari might have held his hand past the finish line but she shares barely 5 minutes of screen time with him in the rest of the series up to that point. While I’m not gonna claim that this isn’t the intended reading, I AM gonna assert that if this was the intended reading, then it is conveyed incredibly poorly, and is not at all thematically consistent with the prior events of the movie.

[Axx°N N.]

NTE is not in the same timeline as NGE. That hypothesis has been thoroughly debunked over years and years of debate, and the only reason it is still around is because its proponents keep shifting the goalpost further away every time their claims are contradicted.

Neither pro nor anti-loop here, but ... putting aside we've been party to these specific premises and debates, Thrice itself adds enough ambiguity to this subject that "debunked" seems a more objective word than is warranted. One of many reasons talk of looping is around, and will continue to be around, is that Thrice gives viewers the impression a loop exists. Yui as proof against the narrative being a literal loop is operating off the notion that the plotline can't be a loop now post-facto and that anything like Yui which contradicts it isn't easily ascribed as being retconned. Or we can say that as there are indications in Thrice of characters gaining awareness of NGE (literalism or metaphor or whatever), NGE is still a closed-off world but there's a looping dynamic because different iterations of the characters are gaining a linear awareness of multitudes of prior canon. That's still a loop in a sense. Those I've watched it with, and these are fans but non-EGF users with no awareness of the great loop debate, have all come away from Thrice with the impression that there's a loop of some kind, however vague. I've only seen those who have always put importance, significance and effort into arguing against looping come out of Thrice somehow vindicated on this viewpoint, when from my POV Thrice does the exact opposite, and that the most you can say in either direction is a shrug.

[Blockio]

The individual arguments have been thoroughly disproven by virtue of better in-universe explanations long before Shin came out.
I say that Yui's existence debunks any sequel/loop thing because ultimately, Anno is a good writer. NTE is not a sequel written by someone else that takes the integrity of the first work as a suggestion ala Pacific Rim (or Eureka Seven as I gather), but it's a followup by the same writing team, all of whom competent enough that they won't invalidate an old work of theirs for no benefit (or arguably at a loss) to the new work

[Axx°N N.]

The individual arguments have been thoroughly disproven by virtue of better in-universe explanations long before Shin came out.

I don't see what those arguments have to do with the more general sentiment of the post you initially responded to, where looping is a thematic conceit built into and directly referenced by the storyline, and as of Thrice, in metatextual fashion. Certain premises hashed out in this forum don't have any bearing on the fact that a non-EGF audience is likely to walk away from Thrice (and from what I've seen, already has) with the impression of looping being a major aspect of the narrative and theme.

[Konja7]

NTE is not in the same timeline as NGE. That hypothesis has been thoroughly debunked over years and years of debate, and the only reason it is still around is because its proponents keep shifting the goalpost further away every time their claims are contradicted.

We can't really say it's debunked for years, since 3.0+1.0 was released the last year. In any case, the theory could be debunked for the first three movies, but 3.0+1.0 bring new ideas by mentioning the existence of a loop (and we even see scenes of NGE at some point).

I don't think this necessarily means NGE is part of NTE, but it's clear 3.0+1.0 leaves this concept open to the audience intepretation.

The individual arguments have been thoroughly disproven by virtue of better in-universe explanations long before Shin came out.
I say that Yui's existence debunks any sequel/loop thing because ultimately, Anno is a good writer. NTE is not a sequel written by someone else that takes the integrity of the first work as a suggestion ala Pacific Rim (or Eureka Seven as I gather), but it's a followup by the same writing team, all of whom competent enough that they won't invalidate an old work of theirs for no benefit (or arguably at a loss) to the new work

I mean, I don't need (or want) NGE to be part of NTE, but "it's a dumb decision, so they wouldn't do it" doesn't seem a pretty strong argument.

[nerv bae]

NTE is not in the same timeline as NGE. That hypothesis has been thoroughly debunked over years and years of debate, and the only reason it is still around is because its proponents keep shifting the goalpost further away every time their claims are contradicted.
And, more pressingly, it makes not a lick of sense for another iteration of anything to happen after NGE, because the assumption that souls are permanent, that Shinji Ikari will always stay Shinji Ikari that is at the very core of the idea, throws a giant wrench into the entire theory because at the end of EoE, Yui is a god who tells the audience to our faces that she will outlast the universe as a permanent reminder of, and safe ark to humanity. She is textbook almighty, has the power to reshape reality at will; NTE happening after that would require her to make the conscious decision of giving up her core goal that she has worked towards for the course of the entire series.

In EoE after Unit 01 re-emerges from GNR and drifts away from Earth, Yui embedded within it was an omnipotent god with continuing power to influence events? I thought she and it were just a mostly inert monument.

[Konja7]

in EoE after Unit 01 re-emerges from GNR and drifts away from Earth, Yui embedded within it was an omnipotent god with continuing power to influence events? I thought she and it were just a mostly inert monument.

My interpretation was that Yui will outlast the universe because she fused with Eva-01 and becomes an inert monument.

I've never though Yui becomes a omnipotent god at the end of EoE. It feels that she sacrifices her own existence to become an eternal remider that humanity existed.

[Blockio]

Given that the lance still floats unraveled in her hands and we see her hair flowing as she's floating away, there's no reason to assume that she has lost her power; it's all still there, Yui simply chooses to stay out of affairs on earth

[Jornophelanthas]

My argument for Mari being the catalyst for the main characters moving on and breaking the cycle does not stand or fall with the assumption that NGE/EoE constitute previous cycles. Nearly everything Kaworu says in Rebuild supports the theory that the Rebuild continuity is inherently cyclic.

However, I can also offer a different metaphor to argue the same point.

In very Freudian terms, Evangelions represent stagnation. They are artificial wombs that the pilots (children) retreat into. (This is a stronger argument in NGE, but Yui's absorption into Unit-01 is a plot point that carried over, so the metaphor stands as far as Shinji - the main protagonist - is concerned.) The pilots becoming trapped in children's bodies through excessive plug depth only illustrates this point. Their emotional growth is stunted. They can only step into adulthood by leaving Evangelion behind, which all of the pilots eventually do.

So in that sense, the Evangelion-triggered Impact that Gendo seeks is basically an unbirthing; retreating back into the womb out of primordial nostalgia for the bliss of non-existence. This is why Instrumentality is the opposite of maturity.

Let's extend the same Freudian similes to the other characters:

- Shinji is the child struggling on the path to adulthood.

- Gendo represents the father: the distant, forceful and uncompromising parent, who is unfamiliar to the child because they were never physically one with him.

- Yui/Unit-01 is the mother: an object of desire for both the father (Gendo) and the child (Shinji).

And then there is Mari: Mari is a midwife, separating the child from the (womb of the) mother and delivering him into the world. This is her role in the very last scene of 3.0+1.0, and it is why it is relevant that she pulls him out of the station and into the city, by his hand. It is also extremely relevant that Shinji needed to be willing to take her hand when she held it out to him. It emphasizes his growth that he is ready to be pulled out by her.

Asides:

SPOILER: Show

In the same vein, this parallel can be extended to the other characters as well:

- Misato is a surrogate parent, who attempts to fill the void left behind by Gendo and Yui in Shinji's life. However, because of her own imperfections and obsessions, she ends up being impotent in the role of a parent, as shown by the distance that Shinji keeps from her (in 1.0 and 2.0), by the fact that she pushes him away in 3.0, and by how she radically distances herself from her own son in 3.0+1.0.

- Asuka is a love interest, a pubescent crush that ends up being fleeting, as neither Shinji nor Asuka could find what they need in the other.

- Rei is more of a sibling to Shinji than anything else. Rei II and Shinji were co-dependent but ended up walking their own paths. Rei ! managed to find her own path in life, independent of Shinji, but still close to him.

[Archer]

Again, not saying your interpretation is wrong, or even that it’s something not directly intended by Anno and co. In fact metatextually Mari being the catalyst for change is fairly transparent and based on CRC interviews and such, arguably undebatable. Like, it is a matter of fact that her inclusion was intended to shake up the status quo, she is a very obvious symbolic catalyst for change in the Rebuilds.

My concern with this reading is that her involvement in the change is purely mechanical, and that it’s not reflected on an emotional level. If we say that the literal act of leaving the minus realm and entering the real world is a metaphor for growing up and moving on from Eva, then Mari’s involvement in literally guiding Shinji out of the minus realm is NOT reflected on a metaphorical level, as she does NOTHING to aid him in growing up and moving on from Eva - she’s entirely absent from the segment of the movie where that happens!

This isn’t really even a critique of your analysis, because even if it’s not 100% on point I think it’s likely pretty close to what Anno and co. were trying to go for. It’s really more of a critique of how poorly developed Mari is as a character, where this reading which I feel is actually pretty close to the intended reading makes sense ONLY when considered metatextually, and doesn’t extend beyond an extremely literalistic surface level.

[Jornophelanthas]

My concern with this reading is that her involvement in the change is purely mechanical, and that it’s not reflected on an emotional level. If we say that the literal act of leaving the minus realm and entering the real world is a metaphor for growing up and moving on from Eva, then Mari’s involvement in literally guiding Shinji out of the minus realm is NOT reflected on a metaphorical level, as she does NOTHING to aid him in growing up and moving on from Eva - she’s entirely absent from the segment of the movie where that happens!

Hence why I say she is a catalyst. Shinji is the mover and shaker, and if he achieved his growth in any other way than figuring stuff out by himself, then it would be meaningless. That is why she is absent between delivering him in and joining him at the end.

This isn’t really even a critique of your analysis, because even if it’s not 100% on point I think it’s likely pretty close to what Anno and co. were trying to go for. It’s really more of a critique of how poorly developed Mari is as a character, where this reading which I feel is actually pretty close to the intended reading makes sense ONLY when considered metatextually, and doesn’t extend beyond an extremely literalistic surface level.

In a sense, our lack of knowledge about Mari can actually add to the meaning her presence carries. Mari is unknowable, and as such she could play the role of "the stranger" or "the other". What I mean by this is the other person in the Hedgehog's Dilemma; the one we do not know and cannot know before we meet them and reach out to them.

And that last train station scene also heavily reminded me of the Hedgehog's Dilemma scene from NGE, where Shinji and Misato stare at each other from across a deserted train platform as a train has just departed, in a still shot that lasted forever. A train departing, followed by Shinji and Mari freely touching each other and running off with fluttering clothes is the diametric opposite of that scene.

[Archer]

Hence why I say she is a catalyst. Shinji is the mover and shaker, and if he achieved his growth in any other way than figuring stuff out by himself, then it would be meaningless. That is why she is absent between delivering him in and joining him at the end.

My point though is that she ISN’T a catalyst on any more than a metatextual surface level. His aged-up friends, Rei Q and Asuka are the clear catalyst for change between NGE and the Rebuilds as I outlined in my prior post - they don’t do anything directly to help him, their contribution is simply just being there for him while he figures stuff out on his own, which is a direct contrast to NGE.

In a sense, our lack of knowledge about Mari can actually add to the meaning her presence carries. Mari is unknowable, and as such she could play the role of "the stranger" or "the other". What I mean by this is the other person in the Hedgehog's Dilemma; the one we do not know and cannot know before we meet them and reach out to them.

Mari is certainly “unknowable” to the audience, but I don’t really think she’s characterized that way to Shinji. Of course it’s hard to say that she’s really characterized in any way to him, given their total of maybe 5 minutes of screen time together before the ending, but there certainly isn’t enough there to say that she’s supposed to represent some “other” that he is initially hesitant to approach.

[Jornophelanthas]

I don't disagree. My entire analysis is metatextual, as I believe that is where a great part of the artistic value of Evangelion lies.

Of course it’s hard to say that she’s really characterized in any way to him, given their total of maybe 5 minutes of screen time together before the ending, but there certainly isn’t enough there to say that she’s supposed to represent some “other” that he is initially hesitant to approach.

I'm pretty sure that every meeting Shinji had with Mari has been depicted in the movies.

[Archer]

My main gripe with it isn’t that it’s metatextual, but that the metatextual is divorced from the narrative, which just makes it feel very shallow and surface-level.

NGE is certainly very metatextual as well, but IMO it’s much more effective at weaving the metatextual elements into the narrative. NGE can still be enjoyed as a stand-alone story without the metatextual elements; the metatextual reading merely enhances and informs the purely textual reading by adding another layer of interpretation to the story. It isn’t all there is to the story, and it certainly doesn’t contradict any of the purely textual themes and ideas. An easy parallel is Alan Moore’s Watchmen - it stands on its own two legs as a self-contained narrative. Being aware of its metatextual commentary on the superhero comics of the time (for example, knowing that the Watchmen were actually supposed to be established heroes instead of new characters that play on existing archetypes) enhances and reinforces the narrative, but isn’t required to enjoy or understand the story on a purely textual level.

IMO, the Rebuilds simply does not stand on its own as a coherent narrative outside of being Anno’s retrospective on NGE and EoE from his current perspective and mental state. There are so many elements that just do not make sense on their own when considered outside of the metanarrative. Mari is just the most emblematic, being a character who can really ONLY be interpreted metatextually, and brings nothing to the table narratively at face value because she has so little screen time and is so poorly developed. Purely narratively speaking, she’s little more than a spouter of vague expository dialogue and an executor of Deus Ex Machina to move the plot along.

I think there’s one big way the metanarrative reading actively undermines the face-value narrative, too: taken at face value 3.0+1.0 is theoretically about Shinji reflecting on and making the necessary changes in perspective to “fix” himself, and that this is what brings about a “happy ending”. When considered metatextually though, the face-value narrative falls apart, because what separates the outcome of EoE and 3.0+1.0 isn’t primarily the result of Shinji making different decisions, but rather of circumstances that are completely out of his control. The bleak ending of EoE doesn’t arise because of Shinji pushing away the people who could be there to help him at his lowest - it happens because he literally has no one left, in contrast with 3.0+1.0 where he has plenty of people who are endlessly patient in helping him through his “recovery”.

This is fine metanarratively when considering 3.0+1.0 as Anno’s reflection on the bleakness of EoE and his mental state during that time, but the narrative and “moral/message” implications are highly questionable once you bring in the metatextual information, because the moral gets recontextualized from one of introspection and self-actualization to “lmao, just have a support system, lol”, because while the self-actualization is still important, the difference between NGE and the Rebuilds isn’t that NGE Shinji doesn’t go through it - it’s that he’s not even given a chance due to the wildly different circumstances.

I'm pretty sure that every meeting Shinji had with Mari has been depicted in the movies.

Dunno where you got that I was implying there were offscreen interactions between them; the point of the passage you quoted was that Mari and Shinji share so little screen time before the ending that it is impossible to characterize what their relationship is intended to be from those prior interactions; and that her characterization in the last 15-20 minutes of the movie basically comes out of nowhere, and is not a logical continuation/extrapolation of her characterization up until that point.

___________________


As a side note, I think there’s a case to be made that Misato, not Mari, serves as a better “guide” to Shinji out of Eva, both narratively and metatextually. Narratively, Misato overcoming her guilt over her inciting role in cheering Shinji on rescue Rei (and thus being at least partially responsible for N3I), and forgiving both Shinji and herself, and then sacrificing her own life (which is already on borrowed time from the bullet she literally took for him) to pull him out of the negative zone works as a resolution to her character arc in the movies, while also being a neat bookend: Misato is the person who brought Shinji into the world of Evangelion, and is his commanding officer throughout at least 1.0 and 2.0. It’s narratively fitting for her to be the one to dismiss him of his office and return him to a world without Eva. Metatextually, this would make a callback to End of Evangelion, where Misato similarly takes a gut-shot and with her last dying breath delivers Shinji to his doom, without ever resolving any of the guilt she feels over her horribly botched “parenting” of Shinji and Asuka… except this time the scenario is twisted around, and her dying act is to deliver his salvation. Plot-wise, there is no compelling reason why Unit 8 specifically is capable of traveling to (and most importantly returning from) negative space - it’s purely just a writing convenience - so it would be easy enough to say that whatever arcane magic powers the Wunder is capable of delivering Shinji from Instrumentality.

[Jornophelanthas]

As a side note, I think there’s a case to be made that Misato, not Mari, serves as a better “guide” to Shinji out of Eva, both narratively and metatextually. Narratively, Misato overcoming her guilt over her inciting role in cheering Shinji on rescue Rei (and thus being at least partially responsible for N3I), and forgiving both Shinji and herself, and then sacrificing her own life (which is already on borrowed time from the bullet she literally took for him) to pull him out of the negative zone works as a resolution to her character arc in the movies, while also being a neat bookend: Misato is the person who brought Shinji into the world of Evangelion, and is his commanding officer throughout at least 1.0 and 2.0. It’s narratively fitting for her to be the one to dismiss him of his office and return him to a world without Eva. Metatextually, this would make a callback to End of Evangelion, where Misato similarly takes a gut-shot and with her last dying breath delivers Shinji to his doom, without ever resolving any of the guilt she feels over her horribly botched “parenting” of Shinji and Asuka… except this time the scenario is twisted around, and her dying act is to deliver his salvation. Plot-wise, there is no compelling reason why Unit 8 specifically is capable of traveling to (and most importantly returning from) negative space - it’s purely just a writing convenience - so it would be easy enough to say that whatever arcane magic powers the Wunder is capable of delivering Shinji from Instrumentality.

Misato's role as a guide is limited. She is unable to cross the Gates of Guf, and therefore cannot guide Shinji beyond that point. She cannot even deliver him across the threshold, because the AAA Wunder is unable to cross it; only Evangelions can.

This hits a core concept of Misato's character: she is fundamentally unable to be an Evangelion pilot, yet she also needs the Evangelions to carry out her obsessive revenge against the Angels and Neo-NERV. She is self-destructively obsessive at heart, but she can only act through the pilots, as well as the WILLE crew, which renders her impotent in a way. Her catharsis comes from destroying herself in an act of creation, thus conquering her impotence, but not her other flaws.

Aside:

SPOILER: Show

The AAA Wunder is a visual illustration of that point: While the pilots can control their Evangelions through little more than intuition, Misato controls her airship by barking orders and pushing a large bridge crew and several decks of scrambling engineers to the very limits of their abilities. In fact, The AAA Wunder is basically a rickety scaffolding built around an Evangelion, It runs on the collective willpower (or "Wille") of what is left of humanity, with Misato as its figurehead). Misato's willingness to sacrifice herself while evacuating her crew further emphasizes her self-destructiveness.

By contrast, Mari is the messenger that can go further than Misato, and she takes Shinji - as well as the Lance of Gaius - across the threshold of the Gates of Guf. And at the very end, she leads him into the new universe where Shinji finds himself. Much like Charon, the ferryman of the dead in Greek mythology, leading deceased souls across the river Styx into the Underworld. And much like a midwife, leading newly born children from the womb into the world (and cutting the umbilical cord).

[Archer]

Fair point about a key aspect of Misato’s character being that she lives vicariously through the pilots.

Misato's role as a guide is limited. She is unable to cross the Gates of Guf, and therefore cannot guide Shinji beyond that point. She cannot even deliver him across the threshold, because the AAA Wunder is unable to cross it; only Evangelions can.

But why tho?
In NGE, the reason Misato can’t pilot an Eva - being that an Eva is essentially powered by the bond between mother and child - isn’t just an arbitrary rule made up to justify why the robots have to be piloted by teenagers - it’s one of the core thematic pillars of the show. Is there any similar properly-set-up and thematically important underpinning behind WHY Misato is unable to cross the gates of guf? WHY only Evangelions are able to cross it? I don’t recall the rules ever being properly set up and rigidly established in such a way that Misato entering with the aid of the Wunder can’t just be handwaved away.

By contrast, Mari is the messenger that can go further than Misato, and she takes Shinji - as well as the Lance of Gaius - across the threshold of the Gates of Guf.

Again - but why tho? What about Mari’s characterization prior to the last 15-20 minutes of the movie justifies her being cast as a “messenger” or spirit guide for Shinji? In her very limited screen time prior to the ending of 3.0+1.0, I think the archetype she fits best is that of the trickster god. Quoting from Wikipedia:

In mythology and the study of folklore and religion, a trickster is a character in a story (god, goddess, spirit, human or anthropomorphisation) who exhibits a great degree of intellect or secret knowledge and uses it to play tricks or otherwise disobey normal rules and defy conventional behavior.

This basically fits her characterization to a tee. Her biggest consistent character quality is the sheer amount of secret and esoteric knowledge she is privy to; she’s chaotic, not strictly loyal to any known faction, and largely plays by her own rules; is literally shown tricking or double-crossing multiple parties, and isn’t above putting her own allies in unnecessary danger apparently for her own amusement; and she most certainly disobeys rules all over the place and defies conventional behavior. She also lives up to the god part of the title, because between her unnatural longevity and expansive forbidden knowledge there’s definitely a supernatural aura about her. Unlike Asuka, who is fighting to protect the people she cares about yet avoids due to the alienation she feels from her supernatural condition, Mari seems above it all, shows no deep emotional attachments to anyone, and gives off the distinct impression that she’s fighting not because she cares about the fate of humanity, any of her Wunder shipmates, or any of the surviving humans in the village, but purely because she finds fighting fun.

Now, with that characterization in mind, what exactly justifies her abandoning her trickster god persona and randomly deciding to become Shinji’s spirit guide back from the afterlife? I’m not contesting that she is, as a matter of fact, INTENDED to be Shinji’s spirit guide in the last 15-20 minutes of the movie; I’m contesting the validity of that decision, and asking for ANY justification or reasoning for why she chooses to take this role in the last 15-20 minutes of the movie. Is there actually a good explanation for her changing from a trickster god into a spirit guide? Or is it, as I suspect, completely pulled out of her ass?

[ElMariachi]

Fair point about a key aspect of Misato’s character being that she lives vicariously through the pilots.

Misato's role as a guide is limited. She is unable to cross the Gates of Guf, and therefore cannot guide Shinji beyond that point. She cannot even deliver him across the threshold, because the AAA Wunder is unable to cross it; only Evangelions can.

But why tho?
In NGE, the reason Misato can’t pilot an Eva - being that an Eva is essentially powered by the bond between mother and child - isn’t just an arbitrary rule made up to justify why the robots have to be piloted by teenagers - it’s one of the core thematic pillars of the show. Is there any similar properly-set-up and thematically important underpinning behind WHY Misato is unable to cross the gates of guf? WHY only Evangelions are able to cross it? I don’t recall the rules ever being properly set up and rigidly established in such a way that Misato entering with the aid of the Wunder can’t just be handwaved away.

Isn't it stated by Ritsuko that only awakened Evas can go to the Anti-Universe? As such, Eva 13 and 01 can go since they are awakened, 08's nomming of an Adam's Vessel apparently awoke it enough to go in there too.
The Wunder, having lost Eva 01, lost the capability to pursue Gendo in the Anti-Universe.

Also I disagree that the Wunder is Misato's new tool for revenge by proxy, quite the contrary: before she fought mainly for her vengeance against the Angels (and a big part of her angst was because she was torn on using kids for that goal), but after the timeskip she fight solely to protect mankind without other ulterior motives, and she reached that state by excising all personal and maternal aspects of her (to the point of abandoning her biological son and the implied beginning of parental figurr relationship she had with Asuka) so that only the Captain Katsuragi, protector of mankind, remained.

And the fact she has to use a crew to man the Wunder doesn't remove merit for her fight, quite the contrary: yiu can see it as a mobile Command Center which can better support its Eva pilots and even directly join the fight, and through it Misato too can directly fight alongside the pilots and bring more than just orders and battle plans to them. (at least until neo-NERV pull out the kid gloves and bring their own battleships...)

[Archer]

The Wunder, having lost Eva 01, lost the capability to pursue Gendo in the Anti-Universe.

I had actually forgotten that the Wunder wasn’t built around Unit 1, that as of 3.0 they’ve only had Unit 1 as a… power source I guess? for a relatively short time, and that Unit 1 leaves it in 3.0+1.0. In my mind it’s always needed an Eva as a power source but evidentially that’s not true.

Isn't it stated by Ritsuko that only awakened Evas can go to the Anti-Universe? As such, Eva 13 and 01 can go since they are awakened, 08's nomming of an Adam's Vessel apparently awoke it enough to go in there too.

My question remains: but why tho? Especially pertaining to that last part with Unit 8. Is there a thematic significance to why only awakened Eva’s can enter the negative zone? The only real reason I can think of is that awakened Eva’s are likened to gods, and the negative zone can be seen as a purgatory/afterlife or a similar metaphysical realm, but even if this were the intended interpretation (which… I don’t think there’s really enough evidence to say for certain) is there actually a thematic point in the negative zone being likened to the realm of gods? Or is it mostly just a plot contrivance with little thematic underpinning? My point is that even if these rules are established in the text, they are arbitrary and lack the deep thematic justification as for example “only children can pilot an Eva”; so it feels less like a rule/limitation that ties into the themes of the work, but rather a “because I said so” to move the plot in the way the writers need it to go.