How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jun 18, 2023 4:06 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Asuka wasn’t nearly as well handled as she was in her transition to NTE. Asuka literally went from the co-protagonist in EOE and most of NGE to a mere side character with barely any screentime or meat behind her story.

I would like to point out that the character here isn’t really Asuka at all. Not Asuka Soryu, but rather some cheap knockoff(literally at this point).

Soryu, the real Asuka, wasn’t even in the Rebuild timeline to begin with. Shikinami may look like her and act like her, but I don’t think I could consider her as Asuka.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sun Jun 18, 2023 4:36 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:It's high time people let go of this idea that Anno hates his fans... he does things for his own reasons, you can question them or his execution, sure, but they're not done in order to spite anyone. I find this to be very silly conspirational thinking.

It's also just not productive and inevitably leads to circular arguments. Anything any creator does in any piece of media you don't personally like you can just claim they're personally focused on making you feel whatever bad thing you felt, but like, that's almost guaranteed to not be in their mind whatsoever. It's basically narcissism on the part of a viewer.

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:Just saying, given how he has said that he intended Rei to be creepy and views her as his least favorite character...

Source?

View Original PostLightDragonman wrote:But also in regards to the budding relationship between Rei II and Shinji, this film made it so that not only did he not save the former, but his attempt to do so ended the world. Which changes the whole message to "if you are little more than the object for one to try and escape reality, then you should die, and you really are worthless. Not to mention that you shouldn't bother to save someone you care about, as that person is little more than someone to coddle you, and the consequences for doing so are too great."

You have a great point here, and it's been an irksome thing to me that NTE, when you stand back and look at it in its entirety, really doesn't grapple enough with the foundational plot element everything ends up hinging on. It makes its cases on what happened and what it signifies, and how the characters take it, but it almost feels like someone making a tortured fan theory that doesn't really treat the situation thoroughly enough ... nothing about it really makes sense, and I don't buy how the characters end up compartmentalizing it. There's a complicated morality going on but there's no willingness to probe it.

Like, ok, let's say Shinji was selfish or escapist in saving Rei. But the extent to which the films then torture Shinji with the consequences of this only works when the premise involves treating Rei as truly expendable, and Shinji as fully free to choose in his situation. What would have made the situation even able to move in the right way, unless someone more responsible because they knew more of what's going on (so, like, everyone but the kids) explicitly informed Shinji enough to avoid what happened? But did anyone have foresight enough to know what would happen? I don't think every scenario of an attempt to save Rei logically concludes in what ended up happening, and so Shinji's intent can only be painted negatively because the writers put "I don't care what happens" in his mouth, but absent of that, then what? And what's more, does this attitude and his arrival at these words even make sense? Perhaps the game the films play for the sake of subverting expectation and tonal whiplash (and so the ability to read/treat the event in two polar opposite ways) renders the event itself inherently contradictory. What happened was surreal and yet extremely binary takeaways result. No one questions if a sort of madness took Shinji over, even though we're dealing with some eldritch mind-infiltrating creatures. So then why is a child orchestrated into this impossibly cruel scenario then blamed for acting in it how the one who orchestrated it predicted he would? It's like starving someone then blaming them when they lift a sandwich off a button that, if not depressed, blows up a box of kittens. Why is no one putting themselves in Shinji's shoes, or coming to the conclusion that someone who relied on someone's irrationality to get a desired outcome is the one to blame? Why is the least informed person obligated to act the most responsibly? It's a situation that only works if you assume all the adults have less reasoning skills than the children.

The narrative over-relies on the excuse that even though the way characters are behaving and the conclusions they've arrived at might not feel right, believe us, they are, you just never got to see it because time skip. This is why I kind of turn my nose up whenever there's talk of a theoretical time-skip covering film, because I don't believe scenes that logically connect 2.0 and 3.0 actually exist. What little of it we've gotten from the -hr features focus on such important explanations as why Midori's hair is pink. It didn't explain her hatred anymore logically, believably or effectively with 10 minutes as it did with the seconds we got in Thrice.

As for the rest, though, it kind of hinges on your premise that Rei means what you say she means, but I really don't think it's so simple as that. I think the fundamental problem with the situation is how poorly defined and explored it is, so I don't think you can pigeonhole her into being this clear metaphor.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby BernardoCairo » Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:59 pm

Alright, we're completely off topic. We might as well move this discussion to a more appropriate thread now.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Jun 18, 2023 7:05 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:The narrative over-relies on the excuse that even though the way characters are behaving and the conclusions they've arrived at might not feel right, believe us, they are, you just never got to see it because time skip. This is why I kind of turn my nose up whenever there's talk of a theoretical time-skip covering film, because I don't believe scenes that logically connect 2.0 and 3.0 actually exist. What little of it we've gotten from the -hr features focus on such important explanations as why Midori's hair is pink. It didn't explain her hatred anymore logically, believably or effectively with 10 minutes as it did with the seconds we got in Thrice.


Connecting the events betwen 2.0 and 3.0 isn't really so difficult. The premise after the timeskip is that humanity blames Shinji because he caused the N3I, which is the trigger to the Third Impact that destroyed the World. They just need to explain the connection.

However, it will never make sense for you, because you wouldn't consider logical that humanity blames Shinji for the N3I.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby ChrisTamv » Sun Jun 18, 2023 7:13 pm

But also in regards to the budding relationship between Rei II and Shinji, this film made it so that not only did he not save the former, but his attempt to do so ended the world. Which changes the whole message to "if you are little more than the object for one to try and escape reality, then you should die, and you really are worthless. Not to mention that you shouldn't bother to save someone you care about, as that person is little more than someone to coddle you, and the consequences for doing so are too great."


I don't think it's correct to come to general conclusion about the supposed thematic statements of a work based on not even half of said work's duration, which is basically the setup for the main part of it that will come right after.

The only thing that matters here is that Shinji triggered an event that ultimately destroyed the world and killed billions of people. We can debate all day about whether he meant what he said about not caring about the world or himself as long as he gets to save Rei, or that it was all in the heat of the moment. We can debate even more about how much of the seemingly genuine relationship Shinji and Rei II built in 2.0 is a result of Ayanami Series' artificially engineered feelings towards Shinji and/or Shinji potentially viewing Rei II as motherly refuge, an "object for one to try and escape reality", but in the end those don't really matter since the focus here is on the consequences of what happened and how Shinji will deal with said consequences in the second half of the tetralogy.

That was what's wrong with Third Impact, not the fact that Shinji saved Rei and his reasons for doing so. WILLE's treatment of Shinji, which relies on the pent-up pain and sorrow of losing their families and livelihoods in an event Shinji triggered, shouldn't be confused with them (and especially not the movies themselves), expecting a traumatized, clueless teenager to make the most responsible and logical judgement in the midst of such a tragedy (whatever that might even be in this case), and therefore vilifying Shinji's decision in the 2.0 finale. Because if that were the case, they would have nothing to regret and apologize for to Shinji in 3.0+1.0.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Asunji_Yuko » Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:47 pm

To answer OP's question, it felt forced since they barely interacted. The whole "world reset" ending was lazy.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jul 15, 2023 9:24 pm

View Original PostAsunji_Yuko wrote:To answer OP's question, it felt forced since they barely interacted. The whole "world reset" ending was lazy.

Well, I’m pretty sure that Anno intended to have Mari be more or less a replacement for Asuka. I think she’s the more human aspect of Asuka, something like a Soryu 2.0 of sorts.

And to keep in mind, I don’t consider Shikinami as Asuka, not as Asuka Soryu. She may look like her, but she’s really not.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:58 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Well, I’m pretty sure that Anno intended to have Mari be more or less a replacement for Asuka. I think she’s the more human aspect of Asuka, something like a Soryu 2.0 of sorts.

I don't think a character is sufficiently "human" if their function is to mostly be posed as a big boobed doll, and they lack a convincing sense of interior conflict of any kind.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Jul 18, 2023 10:41 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote: I don't think a character is sufficiently "human" if their function is to mostly be posed as a big boobed doll, and they lack a convincing sense of interior conflict of any kind.


Oh right, THIS miserable & constantly negative attitude is why I find no more joy in posting or engaging in discussion on EvaGeeks anymore.

I used to love this place but it has been taken over by the most miserable people.

Enjoy your daily hatred of a 2 year old movie.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Wed Jul 19, 2023 2:03 am

Are you saying you agree that Mari is like the human side of Soryu split off into an autonomous character? Are you disagreeing with me that she doesn't have interior conflicts?

Mari is an extremely polarizing character and is probably the most cited gripe about NTE. It's no different here than anywhere else. If you have the right to disagree on her qualities, shouldn't I have the same one but in the opposite direction? If I was crass or demeaning to lead with her boobage, I'm second in line after the films themselves went out of their way to lead with her boobage. It's a defining character trait and her interactions with Shinji begin and end with ample focus on her bosom. The word boob is used, she presses her boobs on Shinji's back, etc. I only say this because I feel it reflects the material more than to say she's comparable to Soryu's characterization, although I'm open to rebuttals.

If you want a place where no one is allowed to have a range of reactions, it would be verging on sexism to demand no one feel anything but positive about a character who is largely expressed through enthusiasm overlapping with leering pinup shots, and it would be nothing but an echo chamber. At a certain point, aren't you asking for the reality of the films to go unrecognized? Discussions on the lore more or less petered out quite a while ago, and a broad contingent of viewers ended up receiving the apparent message "move on from Evangelion the franchise." What discussions would suddenly blossom if no one deigned to critique or disagree?

I'm sorry if my disagreement with a take on a film (or in this case, a single character in a film) was taken as an insult directed at those who disagree. That was not the intention. I actually intended it to be lighthearted humor, but I'm not a comedian.

But I've never insulted you or unfairly reduced your feelings into a strawman, and I think that should also be a two way street. I'm a person with feelings too.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:35 pm

At least Mari wasn’t cloned like how Asuka was, so her feelings towards Shinji were probably more genuine instead of being programmed like the Ayanami and Shikinami series.

I’m pretty sure Anno sank AsuShin with the last Rebuild movie.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:56 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:At least Mari wasn’t cloned like how Asuka was, so her feelings towards Shinji were probably more genuine instead of being programmed like the Ayanami and Shikinami series.

Again. It has never been mentioned Shikinami series have programmed feelings towards Shinji. In fact, the way Asuka mentioned it seems to imply the programmed attachment towards Shinji are exclusive from Ayanami series.

That said, even when Rei Q discovered she was programmed to develop attachment towards Shinji, she doesn't think this make her feelings towards Shinji less real or important.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jul 20, 2023 2:26 am

CT I'm going to ask you to ease off of the Asuka clone thing; the way you obsess over it across so many threads is genuinely kind of creepy.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Launches » Sun Jul 23, 2023 12:57 am

I believe he ended up with Asuka after the end, not Mari

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Sun Jul 23, 2023 4:43 am

View Original PostLaunches wrote:I believe he ended up with Asuka after the end, not Mari

Honestly, I really doubt Shinji ended up with Asuka in Rebuild.

There is clearly a "goodbye" between them in Asuka's Instrumentality. Not to mention the Train Station where it seems Shinji goes in the opposite direction.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Asunji_Yuko » Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:40 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:At least Mari wasn’t cloned like how Asuka was, so her feelings towards Shinji were probably more genuine instead of being programmed like the Ayanami and Shikinami series.

I’m pretty sure Anno sank AsuShin with the last Rebuild movie.


Eh....they weren't really the same characters as the originals, so AsuShin is still quite alive, IMO.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby B00gerball » Wed Mar 20, 2024 11:35 pm

shouldve been kaworu :<


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