How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby bogusman » Wed May 05, 2021 9:14 pm

View Original PostXiel wrote:

(*This includes how he excuses his father and forgets some of his three main victims were Asuka, Kaworu, and Rei, so really it would be slightly unpleasant for Shinji to hook up with any of them after this. It's probably just me, but I was pissed with this. All I can say sums up this for the three of them: "I'm sorry my father's plans killed you and stuck you into Eva to cause Impacts, honey. But, you see, he really missed mom and he's a good man. A bad person wouldn't love to play the piano as he does!" Do you guys really want this? :bigeyes: ).



Honestly i laughed so hard reading this :lol: so hilarious XD

Your thought about Gendo is kinda interesting though. Make me wanna revisit more about him in Shin.
Yea...

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 pm

View Original PostXiel wrote:
View Original PostElMariachi#922133 wrote:... what. What?! Do you have any source on that, because holy shit if that isn't the craziest thing I've read:


Here it is. Scroll down to gwern's translation. :bigeyes:
It is not the first time he praised Gendo either. I mean this could be a recent change of heart for NTE. I love you guys trying to spin it as proposal or what-ifs, but Shin unmasked the ugly truth (and why would he even referring to a hypothetical Gendo anyway, he is basically saying he's misunderstood by us). :facepalm:

That... that was something alright. "Gendo is actually a good father" is not a hot take I expected to see from the directors. :bigeyes:
His thought that Gendo is not popular in Japan and that he thinks that people don't get it is very telling: if everyone around you is in the wrong, then usually the problem is you.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby lazysaturn » Thu May 13, 2021 8:43 pm

I meant that Gendo and Yui represent a toxic relationship. It’s not something to aspire to. Sure it’s a great love in the sense that it’s tragic and it affected a lot of people. But Gendo used countless girls and women after losing Yui. Ritsuko’s mother killed herself after strangling Rei bc she repeated that Gendo called her an old hag. I mean he also cloned Yui with Rei and get using Rei like an object. Idk how this is considered a good thing. Oh and then he abandoned Shinji and used him as well. Gendo is a terrible person.

Gendo and Yui parallels are negative.

View Original PostXiel wrote:
View Original Postlazysaturn#921970 wrote:Yui and Gendo have the most toxic relationship in the series. I wouldn't say they complete each other, rather they destroyed each other. They were unsuccessful parents and their son has so much trauma bc of them. So any parallels to Gendo and Yui would either be foreshadowing of an unsuccessful relationship or him finding parental support in someone else.


Yui/Gendo is the end example of a "great love story" for Anno and Tsurumaki in Rebuild. Shinji can't help but feel bad and touched by Gendo's feelings for Yui and they go out happy in a heroic sacrifice of pure eternal bliss together. It's completely different to NGE and EOE portrayal because it doesn't focus on Shinji's Oedipus Complex anymore. One last Kiss is stated by Utada to be about Gendo's feelings. Tsurumaki even thinks Gendo is a great father to Shinji. :bigeyes: Any comparison to them was meant to be flattering which rubs me wrong that they whitewash Gendo as a "good guy" because "he played the piano like Kaworu!" :facepalm:
Misato/Kaji, Rei/Shinji, Shinji/Kaworu, Mari/Shinji relationships given brushes compared to Gendo/Yui in some ways (and Kaworu/Rei I suppose as projection) is meant to be a good thing. It's like all those relationships ended up being reduced to put Yui/Gendo on a pedestal.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby The18°angel » Fri May 14, 2021 6:58 am

After thinking about it for a while, it seems that the relationship between the two is similar to Misato and Kaji. Shinji in this case is Misato and Mari in this case is Kaji. the parallels are quite strong, Misato the only survivor of the second impact that was caused by her father, Shinji that was used to cause the N3I, Misato and Shinji end up reduced to a catatonic state by this (although it took longer and other circumstances with Shinji ) they both recover and meet someone later Kaji / Mari, and they relate to them Misato falls in love with Kaji because he is similar to his father, possibly the same with Shinji, also something that I just realized is that Misato was the guardian of Asuka and Shinji while Kaji was this for Mari and kaworu, another parallel. Misato and Shinji are initially in charge of eliminating the angels, both motivated by their parents, while Kaji and Mari are working in the shadows against Nerv and Seele as well as knowing more about what is really happening and what is the goal of Seele and nerv. It should also be noted that Misato met Kaji after having recovered from her trauma from the second impact, Shinji only knows Mari officially when he is "recovered" from his trauma and decides to leave with WILLE. and who knows what could have happened from the moment Mari rescues Shinji on the beach to the train station.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby one-eyed » Fri May 14, 2021 8:45 am

ElMariachi wrote: That... that was something alright. "Gendo is actually a good father" is not a hot take I expected to see from the directors.
His thought that Gendo is not popular in Japan and that he thinks that people don't get it is very telling: if everyone around you is in the wrong, then usually the problem is you.


I've been saying this for years and nobody wanted to believe it! The whole interpretation of Evangelion changes with this simple paradigm shift! Including Rebuilding!

lazysaturn wrote: I meant that Gendo and Yui represent a toxic relationship. It’s not something to aspire to (...)

I think most people think that. I have always seen people associating Gendo with Captain Ahab. I associate him with Gollum: a being so obsessed with his "precious" that he loses everything: his family, his identity, his sanity, his biology, his life and, in the case of Gendo, his own soul. It is not something that I could consider healthy and worthy of praise. Some people want to be the hero and save the day, others want to be the villain and get away with it and some want to be the monster and be applauded for it!

The18°angel wrote: After thinking about it for a while, it seems that the relationship between the two is similar to Misato and Kaji (...)


I had not made this association! It really makes sense!

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Asugran233 » Fri May 14, 2021 2:33 pm

I believe that Shinji chewed old friends and fell in love with Mari... then they had children... and then from the hill to the claws.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Melkor » Fri May 14, 2021 4:12 pm

PLESE, EVERYBODY, DO NOT USE FULL QUOTES ALL THE TIME. - Derantor

SPOILER: Show
View Original PostThe18°angel wrote:After thinking about it for a while, it seems that the relationship between the two is similar to Misato and Kaji. Shinji in this case is Misato and Mari in this case is Kaji. the parallels are quite strong, Misato the only survivor of the second impact that was caused by her father, Shinji that was used to cause the N3I, Misato and Shinji end up reduced to a catatonic state by this (although it took longer and other circumstances with Shinji ) they both recover and meet someone later Kaji / Mari, and they relate to them Misato falls in love with Kaji because he is similar to his father, possibly the same with Shinji, also something that I just realized is that Misato was the guardian of Asuka and Shinji while Kaji was this for Mari and kaworu, another parallel. Misato and Shinji are initially in charge of eliminating the angels, both motivated by their parents, while Kaji and Mari are working in the shadows against Nerv and Seele as well as knowing more about what is really happening and what is the goal of Seele and nerv. It should also be noted that Misato met Kaji after having recovered from her trauma from the second impact, Shinji only knows Mari officially when he is "recovered" from his trauma and decides to leave with WILLE. and who knows what could have happened from the moment Mari rescues Shinji on the beach to the train station.


I've been thinking the same thing! With the way Shinji was acting with Mari in the final scene, I could totally see him turning into a Kaji, while Mari turns into a Misato. In this new world, Shinji becomes the new Kaji while Mari becomes the new Misato. Maybe they even adopt Ryoji and raise him.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 14, 2021 5:05 pm

View Original PostMelkor wrote:I've been thinking the same thing! With the way Shinji was acting with Mari in the final scene, I could totally see him turning into a Kaji, while Mari turns into a Misato. In this new world, Shinji becomes the new Kaji while Mari becomes the new Misato. Maybe they even adopt Ryoji and raise him.

Kaji Sr implies during Instrumentality that Misato will be resurrected with everyone else when he said to Kaworu that he could live his life tending the fields with Katsuragi. Besides I don't think that Shinji would be ready to raise a kid, especially one already 14.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Kendrix » Fri May 14, 2021 6:09 pm

Yeah. I'd assume that their relationship would be more like long-lost brothers.

I also was reminded of Kaji there, but more like Shinji is doing a Kaji impression trying to act cool. His overall expressions/reactions are still a lot like the Shinji we know.

View Original Postshinryujimikihiko wrote:It would have been better if the ending had given concrete proof that they are all still friends regardless of who is shipped with who.


Can't argue with that in any way -
though I don't see any solid reason to think that they aren't.

Still, I'd agree that it could've been improved by just some shot of them in those very same grownup outfits, sipping ice tea and discussing their jobs; But maybe that wouldn't have left enough mystery???

I certainly don't see how Asuka and Mari would just suddenly stop being besties after 14 years.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Fri May 14, 2021 6:34 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Can't argue with that in any way -
though I don't see any solid reason to think that they aren't.


The epilogue really wants to imply a separation, since Shinji and Mari went in an opposite direction to the train with Asuka, Rei and Kaworu.

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily a permanent separation, but it is clear that they are going their separate ways for now.


If we assume there is a timeskip for the Epilogue, it also doesn't seem Shinji has been in contact with Asuka, Rei and Kaworu. This would makes sense, since there's a "goodbye" vibe in the Instrumentality.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby bogusman » Fri May 14, 2021 11:27 pm

But i find it quite hard to imagine what happened in that timeskip before epilogue and it's just because of that DSS choker stuff.
Except to imagine a rather funny scenario instead.
Last edited by bogusman on Sat May 15, 2021 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yea...

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Sat May 15, 2021 12:18 am

It is time for a Necropost: post/357818/So-I-heard-a-lot-of-folks-didnt-like-Mari/#357818

My belief is that they had no idea what to do with her. There was an interview with Tsurumaki in which he confessed that during the production of "Ha" they still weren't sure about what to do with Mari, even the name which was tentatively "Mariko". They HAD to have a new character (a new pilot), but they didn't have much of an idea as to what to do with it. That says a lot about all this.


That was before the theater release announcement for 2.0 I believe. Guess it was in one of those CUT magazine specials. But it was something that was never translated from Japanese AFAIR.


I'm pretty sure it's this one, but it is only summarized: yui-spirits.kboyu.net/2009/07/cut8.html

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby TsuyoiOuji » Sat May 15, 2021 7:58 am

View Original PostMelkor wrote:
SPOILER: Show
View Original PostThe18°angel#922761 wrote:...they both recover and meet someone later Kaji / Mari, and they relate to them Misato falls in love with Kaji because he is similar to his father, possibly the same with Shinji...

Mari and Shinji had basically 0 interactions until the very end of the movie. A few words exchanged before the final fight and then for some reason Mari risked everything by going after Shinji and keep her word of going to get him.

Even at the epilogue they had no chemistry as a couple, they felt like just friends. Or better, Mari only gave me "big dog" vibes from her out-of-nowhere loyalty and always-so-happy personality/facade.

Even Kaji Jr was a better romantic target just because of the conversation Shinji had with Misato later on (the translated sub file that was circulating around had some things wrong).

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby one-eyed » Sat May 15, 2021 9:06 am

Bogusman wrote: But i find it quite hard to imagine what happened in that timeskip before epilogue and it's just because of that DSS choker stuff.
Except to imagine a rather funny scenario instead.

A troll and bizarre alternative that I imagined is that Gendo and Yui distorted Shinji's desire when they sacrificed themselves in his place: when we see Ghiblitown the place is empty, the Asuka’s Plug is empty, Wille's lifeboats too and there are footprints that don't end. Shinji waits for Mari on the beach and suddenly they are at the station. They are living in a new world. Shinji doesn't greet Asuka, Rei and Kaworu because they don't remember each other. They are like Rei Q: they have the appearance of the characters, the essence of them, but not the memories. When Mari takes off Shinji's choker, she means he has redeemed himself and can start over from scratch. But if so, Anno was really lazy! I've seen better fanfics!


Konja7 wrote: If we assume there is a timeskip for the Epilogue, it also doesn't seem Shinji has been in contact with Asuka, Rei and Kaworu. This would makes sense, since there's a "goodbye" vibe in the Instrumentality.

I think an epilogue timeskip would be a sad end for Asuka. If it is another 14 years, it would mean that she is 42 biological years old and continues as a hikikomori, isolated in a corner, alone and playing her little game forever. I think this is wrong with the character and as a message.

I think they lost their breath, the momentum, the inspiration and the focus during these years of timeskip. The story and characters looks like a bunch of scraps that don't quite fit.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat May 15, 2021 9:19 am

shes waiting for either a train or someone picking her up at the station; What else is she supposed to do?
Playxing games at a social even might be a sign of isolation but doing it while you genuinely have nothing to do is just normal.

If anything I'm glad that we see adult Asuka still playing games & not magically transformed into a cheery emphatic person cause it sends the message that growing up doesn't mean you cant have hobbies or a personality anymore, something that particularly women get bombarded with. ("Why are you writing fanfictions? Go get a husband and kid")

I always hated how every single fanfiction happy ending gave Asuka kids like not wanting kids is always something to be fixed. Of course she's young & could change her mind; If it was 50/50 between kids and no kids I would see no problem but I can't recall a single fic where she gets a happy ending without bloody kids.

For the same reason I was very glad that Mari is still very silly wearing bright pink, & though Shinji can put a confident act on for a bit & seems to have a direction in life, his expressions/body language isn't actually that different.

Asuka's wearing rather professional-looking clothes. I doubt she's anything resembling a shut-in.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sat May 15, 2021 1:40 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:If anything I'm glad that we see adult Asuka still playing games & not magically transformed into a cheery emphatic person cause it sends the message that growing up doesn't mean you cant have hobbies or a personality anymore, something that particularly women get bombarded with. ("Why are you writing fanfictions? Go get a husband and kid")

But that's such a big leap in extrapolation, we see her for 1 or 2 seconds. And we can't even say if it's not just a smartphone yet, which can make it anything from a boring work email to reading the news to Bejeweled. Many (if not most) people who saw it in theaters missed her, and have reported surprise and even incredulity on learning she was there.

If the film wanted to communicate what you're suggesting, this is not how it would be done. So I just don't think that's what it was trying to communicate. Occam's Razor when applied to Shin Eva's messaging is that it's a goodbye. Instrumentality has Shinji and Mari wishing their friends well, the tone and wording is pretty unambiguously one of parting, and Kaworu anyway only further confirms it when he asks Shinji if he won't be lonely after he bye-byes Asuka, to which he only says, more or less "I'm ok with it."

Yes, as has been argued, Shinji & Mari were in a sacrificial situation and didn't know they'd get out, and you can say they'll now reverse their goodbyes one day into not being final, but the film doesn't show that. So what the film is communicating aside from any extrapolation is at least the possibility they'll never meet again, and that they've not even talked in the interim.

And if the final shot we get is of a hyper-confident Shinji, Kaworu talking with a woman after he's only ever showed interest in Shinji, Rei being talkative and casual whatsoever, and an Asuka who gets the ultimate ambiguity of looking at a screen with no idea of what's on it, it's the film's fault if a viewer concludes "they're all polar opposites now, except Mari, who's same as usual."

It's not that we can't say for sure they'll never meet again, it's just that Shin really really goes out of its way to heavily imply the opposite, and ignoring all of that seems kind of like a labored effort, moreso than assuming he's moved on in the same way Anno has signaled in many an interview. Including the lengthy NHK one that has been airing simultaneously to Shin's showing and so, at least for Japanese audiences, will heavily assist interpretation. No one can feign unawareness Anno burned out and has baggage and wants to leave it behind.
Last edited by Axx°N N. on Sat May 15, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Derantor » Sat May 15, 2021 1:48 pm

I like to imagine that Asuka tries to text Mari but Mari ignores her and goes straight to Shinji instead. :emogendo:
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Konja7 » Sat May 15, 2021 2:02 pm

View Original PostAxx°N N. wrote:And if the final shot we get is of a hyper-confident Shinji, Kaworu talking with a woman after he's only ever showed interest in Shinji, Rei being talkative and casual whatsoever, and an Asuka who gets the ultimate ambiguity of looking at a screen with no idea of what's on it, it's the film's fault if a viewer concludes "they're all polar opposites now, except Mari, who's same as usual."


We don't even see Rei's face, so how could you say she's talkative?

Also, part of the Instrumentality point is that Kaworu and Rei need to let Shinji go and look for their own place. So, I don't see the problem even if we assume they are on a date.
Last edited by Konja7 on Sat May 15, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Axx°N N. » Sat May 15, 2021 2:06 pm

View Original PostKonja7 wrote:
View Original PostAxx°N N.#922886 wrote:And if the final shot we get is of a hyper-confident Shinji, Kaworu talking with a woman after he's only ever showed interest in Shinji, Rei being talkative and casual whatsoever, and an Asuka who gets the ultimate ambiguity of looking at a screen with no idea of what's on it, it's the film's fault if a viewer concludes "they're all polar opposites now, except Mari, who's same as usual."


We don't even see Rei's face, so how could you say she's talkative?

Also, part of the Instrumentality point is that Kaworu and Rei need to let Shinji go and look for their own place. So, I don't see the problem even if we assume they are on a date.

I'm not, I'm saying with everything displayed, I feel it becomes easy to reach the overall interpretation of "they've all changed."

If what Shin wanted to do was leave it ambiguous whether they move on from Shinji or not, there wouldn't be a timeskip in the epilog. To me, that's very clearly a followup to the lines you mention, in order to demonstrate they have found their places apart from Shinji. Thus it would be totally fine for Shinji to connect with them again--but he doesn't. Thus, again, the overwhelming indication is they're not going to interact.
Last edited by Axx°N N. on Sat May 15, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do you feel about Shinji ending up with Mari?

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Postby Slowpokeking » Sat May 15, 2021 2:09 pm

it's like a random pair without enough setup and interactions.

Why not use Misato?


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