Asuka helping Shinji

[Sachi]

Shikinami expressed powerful embarassment after the bomb angel mission. She was running with her chest out, if you will; she was fighting with her ego forward, which is why she was 1. overnarrating the event 2. performing less than satisfactory(remember, just before this she completely soloed another angel straight out of a plane without ever stepping on the ground once) and 3. felt ridiculed when she couldn't "do it by herself." Rei and Shinji were literally begging her to hurry before she winded up to deliver her over-enthusiastic kill move. I would barely call that thinking outside of herself very much.

You're correct if you're examining Shikinami pre-timeskip, but SSD was clearly speaking about Q!Shikinami and the development she received during the fourteen year timeskip. SSD does have a point that Shikinami post-timeskip is much more mature and selfless in many ways. Coming back for Shinji at the end of of Q attests to that.

[unitM]

You're correct if you're examining Shikinami pre-timeskip, but SSD was clearly speaking about Q!Shikinami and the development she received during the fourteen year timeskip. SSD does have a point that Shikinami post-timeskip is much more mature and selfless in many ways. Coming back for Shinji at the end of of Q attests to that.

I would say she certainly came off that way in a number of ways but I think it's too judge the few times we've seen her in action with a universal personality trait. She still did a number of selfish things - though, to be fair(and as already stated), they were balanced well with her self-less acts, which were often positioned very explicitly on screen. For example, she kicked Shinji over when he was in a near-fetal position. What was that? A selfless act, no doubt. She didn't really go against Misato's charade's, either, also withholding information from Shinji. And "die brat?" Sure she's in an organization that's devoted to a good cause, but even within this organization, the way she acts towards Shinji did not really aid what was happening next. WILLE could have easily predicted Gendou's return and Shinji's capture, and this responsibility was also on Asuka. Instead Mari popped off 00's dome. Where was Asuka? Not a very strategic move.

[Sachi]

I would say she certainly came off that way in a number of ways but I think it's too judge the few times we've seen her in action with a universal personality trait. She still did a number of selfish things - though, to be fair(and as already stated), they were balanced well with her self-less acts, which were often positioned very explicitly on screen. For example, she kicked Shinji over when he was in a near-fetal position. What was that? A selfless act, no doubt. She didn't really go against Misato's charade's, either, also withholding information from Shinji. And "die brat?"

Her treatment and behavior toward Shinji seemed rather personal and built up; there's strong emotions at play there and their interactions are rather abrasive. I'm not saying she's not selfish at all, but it seems that her entire life isn't revolved around her ego anymore.

And I disagree that Mjsato and co and were involved in any sort of charade or active attempt to hide information from Shinji. People aren't that actively organized and malicious toward an invidiual (even though a point of this film is to really make it seem that way); rather they are passive and neglectful of others feelings by happenstance. They made a mistake of not telling him everything (time was not on their side), but they weren't actively keeping him the truth away from him.

[Jäeger]

Her treatment and behavior toward Shinji seemed rather personal and built up; there's strong emotions at play there and their interactions are rather abrasive. I'm not saying she's not selfish at all, but it seems that her entire life isn't revolved around her ego anymore.

yeah, it seems that only her feelings towards him (whatever they are) can make her change his new mature attitude and behaviour. I'm fine with that, after the could behaviour towards him everybody shows.

[ElMariachi]

Something I would like to see in FINAL is Asuka without Shinji being around or being the topic of conversation, so we could see what a "normal" Asuka looks like, since Shinji is obviously a very sore subject that makes her react more aggressively than normal.

[Jäeger]

Something I would like to see in FINAL is Asuka without Shinji being around or being the topic of conversation, so we could see what a "normal" Asuka looks like, since Shinji is obviously a very sore subject that makes her react more aggressively than normal.

Maybe if the Wunder rescues them, will have a chance. But the movies are so shinjicentric....

O maybe if they begin in a human settlement....

[ElMariachi]

Maybe FINAL will break the mold and be less Shinjicentric, to symbolize how he's starting to get out of his little bubble and so we could get to (re)know more the rest of the cast.
Also, even 1.0 and 2.0 had several scenes of people talking between themselves without Shinji being near, and with Shinji not being the topic of conversation, only 3.0 was extremely Shinjicentric.

[Monk Ed]

Maybe FINAL will break the mold and be less Shinjicentric, to symbolize how he's starting to get out of his little bubble and so we could get to (re)know more the rest of the cast.
Also, even 1.0 and 2.0 had several scenes of people talking between themselves without Shinji being near, and with Shinji not being the topic of conversation, only 3.0 was extremely Shinjicentric.

Although that's true from an objective observation, I sure do remember that one complaint about movie 2 is that it had too much Shinji. The quotation that sticks out in my mind is a response (on this forum) years ago to information revealed about Anno's thoughts in directing Ha and worrying that people would forget that Shinji is the main character, which is why he returned the focus to him at different points. The respondent said something like "Oh, heavens, like we're going to forget that Shinji is the main character!". I don't know if that represents any kind of consensus -- or if consensus even exists in Evangelion analysis and criticism -- but I actually remembered feeling the same way myself. But now Q has set the bar for Shinjicentricness so high that he all but disappears in Ha by comparison until the Bardiel incident.

[ElMariachi]

Well, even back in 2.0 there were scenes that had nothing to do directly with Shinji, such as Rei reflecting on her change of behavior, or the most glaring example, the phone conversation between Asuka and Misato just before Bardiel.
By the way we had something interesting that happened with the latter example: at first it looked like Asuka's character arc was finished with her confidence to Misato about how having friends feels nice and how she's actually happy for once, but then Bardiel appeared and snatched all of this away (her pilot friends are "dead" and she was altered with an angelic infection, pretty much ending her possibility to have a normal life), which brought her character arc toward a completely new direction... which happened off-screen during the timeskip. (which is why I hope we'll get a spin-off expanding on the timeskip someday)

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I didn't feel that Ha was all that Shinji-centric, personally. We got to see a lot of the other characters. Like you said, though, Q has set the Shinji standard pretty darn high.

[KingXanaduu]

^

Well, that was kind of the point for Q, so the audience could mimic his utter isolation and alienation of this new world that had developed because of his faults.

And, I do agree with Elmariach's idea that the view should shift from time to time in Final from Shinji, showing he's not the center of the world, but hopefully those different views can help coincide with Shinji's chance at redemption in their eyes or at the very least just his own.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I think we talked about all that a while back, during the time when the rebuild thread was constantly being thrown back to Shinji-related topics. So much thread splitting.

[KingXanaduu]

^
Can you blame them or us? A lot of us identify and relate to Shinji in so many ways.

So when all this shit gets piled on Shinji because of his actions, a lot of people try to justify and explain his actions, not only because they want him to succeed at something, but because deep down they're afraid that put in similar circumstances they'd make the same choices and mistakes and thus be deserving of such hatred from others.

In a way, they're not only trying to justify Shinji, but justify their own selfish behaviors as well.....kind of tells you a lot doesn't it?

[Stillborn]

Therefore I feel no compassion for Shinji at all. I only hate him for his actions, therefore I'm so morally superior, cause I wouldn't make such mistakes.

[KingXanaduu]

@Stillborn: Doubt it.


The point is that while such a fear is understandable, the "hatred" that a lot of people have claimed to see that's thrusted on Shinji is NOT full-on hatred, just disappointment and frustration in him, which can be redeemed, as with ANY relationship.

Therefore, it's okay to try to justify your actions, but at least be willing to accept that they weren't the best choice and try to move forward.

[ElMariachi]

^
Can you blame them or us? A lot of us identify and relate to Shinji in so many ways.

So when all this shit gets piled on Shinji because of his actions, a lot of people try to justify and explain his actions, not only because they want him to succeed at something, but because deep down they're afraid that put in similar circumstances they'd make the same choices and mistakes and thus be deserving of such hatred from others.

In a way, they're not only trying to justify Shinji, but justify their own selfish behaviors as well.....kind of tells you a lot doesn't it?

Well, I feel that it's not just the fact that he made a wrong choice (assuming we're talking about saving Rei in 2.0 here), but also the fact that there wasn't anything that indicated that it was a bad choice until there was nothing to stop the events set in motion anymore (except Kaworu's LoC), and that, to paraphrase NemZ, that 14 years later "everyone seems to be acting as if Shinji should had know better, which is BS".

That's why I hope FINAL will give us some answers about what exactly happened 14 years, because yes accepting that one's actions weren't the best and take responsibility for it is important, but first we need to know what exactly those actions and their subsequent effect were!

[The Cruel]

Well, I feel that it's not just the fact that he made a wrong choice (assuming we're talking about saving Rei in 2.0 here), but also the fact that there wasn't anything that indicated that it was a bad choice until there was nothing to stop the events set in motion anymore (except Kaworu's LoC), and that, to paraphrase NemZ, that 14 years later "everyone seems to be acting as if Shinji should had know better, which is BS".

That's why I hope FINAL will give us some answers about what exactly happened 14 years, because yes accepting that one's actions weren't the best and take responsibility for it is important, but first we need to know what exactly those actions and their subsequent effect were!

Everything has it's price, by saving the one you care about and let others die or the other way around. This actually happened in 2.0 despite that Rei is now a part of Unit-1. I actually couldn't understand too how Shinji could initiate 3I while being impaled with the Cassius-Lance.

I have another theory:

Probably a undefined time later, the 12th Angel paid it's visit to Terminal Dogma.

To stop this angel from merging with Lilith, they needed an active Eva (Mark 6) and both lances (Longinus and Cassius). The trickiest thing was they had only one copy from each lance.

So they had to remove the Cassius-Lance from Unit-1. After removing the lance from Unit-1, it seemed not active at first.

After the battle with the angel and Mark 6 being its vessel through having impaled itself with the lances, Unit-1 became active and 3I was about to happen.

But then again there would be more logic issues.

[ElMariachi]

Everything has it's price, by saving the one you care about and let others die or the other way around. This actually happened in 2.0 despite that Rei is now a part of Unit-1. I actually couldn't understand too how Shinji could initiate 3I while being impaled with the Cassius-Lance.

Yes, but it helps to know what the price is beforehand, or even to know that there's even a price to what he was about to do to begin with, which no one of the common NERV, not even Ritsuko, knew.

But then again there would be more logic issues.

The biggest one being that if removing the LoC restarted EVA-01 for some reasons (which is odd, since Shinji got his "wish", so it didn't had any reasons to continue, assuming that it was even for granting him said wish that EVA-01 awoke), how the hell did NERV managed to stop it again, since 14 years later the spears are still impaling Lilith, meaning that they didn't moved from here.