Who Killed Kaworu? Automatic vs Manual DSS Deicide

[pwhodges]

so it's implies that WILLE are the ones who created it, they even had one and the schematics that goes with it!
So they must know who and what Kaworu is, if not they wouldn't had created a device specifically built to contain him.

If Wille, then how did they expect to get it on him, when he's in Nerv's custody? And why would they tie it up by putting it on Shinji if it's possibly required for Kaworu (there's no suggestion they have others, but I guess if you make one you make a dozen)? And why are they not surprised that the unremovable collar is being worn by someone else?

[ElMariachi]

Well, we don't know how things happened during the time skip : maybe NERV continued to operate for sometime as before N3I, then Kaji/Misato/whatever discover that Kaworu is an Angel and worlds for SEELE and plans to capture him for informations but need a mean to keep him in check, and thus asked to Ritsuko, who turned coats against Gendo, to create a device for that, thus was born the DSS Choker. Or maybe that's something Gendo made created to keep Kaworu in check and the WILLE people stole the schematics... really we don't have enough information to give an answer.

As for why WILLE used it on Shinji 14 years later, well for one they weren't even sure that it was even Shinji and not some angelic mutant with powers similar to Kaworu, and secondly they needed a device to monitor him and prevent him to awake an Evangelion, and coincidentally have such a device at hand, maybe most of the function are not useful on him(like the "Suppression Function" that could mean suppression of angelic powers, like with the Angel Sealing Pillars), but better safe than sorry.

I had a theory that the reason the Choker was here to stay, as Sakura put it, is that once it's confirmed that "BM-03" is indeed Shinji and that his awareness of what was happening during N3I established(and with it his responsibility) Misato planned to give Shinji a second chance to make up for his past errors by proposing him to pilot an Evangelion WILLE kept in stock in a base and never could find a pilot for(EVA-07, or 10-12), but that the Choker had to stay they will be sure that he doesn't awake another Eva if he loses control over his emotions.

And seeing all the crazy shit everyone can build after the time skip, I don't think a DSS Choker should be something that difficult to build.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Unless otherwise noted by the films, we should keep these explination fanwanks as simple as possible. (And arguably, Anno's explinations are the simplest possible anyway, given the plot and story he's written. LCL could have been a lot more complicated than Lilith's time of the month.) I like the idea of Wille taking things from NERV when they split from them, like the collar and possibly even AAA WUNDER. That would also explain Ritsuko's knowledge of all of this tech stuff, since it was simply taken from her former employer anyway.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I'm inclined to say that the collar was an automatic detonation. If it had been manual, I'm sure it would have gone off long before much of 4th impact could have occurred.

[Chroma]

I'm definitely of the opinion that the DSS choker had two means of activation, both of which had been mentioned previously in the thread.

The first: Manual
Useful for something like Shinji's escape, any attempt of his to pilot an EVA, or if he shows any signs of manifesting Angel abilities. Basically, it'd be used on a case-to-case basis as a surefire kill if speaking to him/shooting at him (in the case of Angel ability manifestation) or other means of stopping him are unavailable. Also, all of these can be used for Kawuro as well, if it was truly made for him and adapted to Shinji.

The second: Automatic
Used when they can't physically reach/stop Shinji, if the remote detonator is out of range but he still needs to be killed, if there's any sign of him activating and synching with an EVA, or if he goes full Angel/Awakens an EVA and the manual detonator can't reach/work. Basically, it's a fail-safe for any compromise of the remote or in any case where something needs to be stopped in a split second and there are no other options.

The choker was most likely automatically activated when Kawuro became the 13th Angel/exhibited Angel qualities because of this/activated the EVA towards an Awakening. Yes, the decision was set up to give Misato a moral choice, but that was a non-entity once Kawuro took up the collar even if she didn't know it. I also doubt that Gendo had a remote, even if I do believe in FFF4E's idea that the Wunder and the collar and all were tech taken by WILLIE during the split.

[pwhodges]

Basically, it's a fail-safe for any compromise of the remote or in any case where something needs to be stopped in a split second and there are no other options.

The choker was most likely automatically activated when Kawuro became the 13th Angel/exhibited Angel qualities because of this/activated the EVA towards an Awakening.

If it was meant to operate in a split second it was a big failure - but perhaps we must assume that Kaworu had the capability of delaying its operation, and indeed chose to let it explode in the end.

[monitoradiation]

I think they knew, or at least Mari realized it : Kaworu explicitly said that the DSS Choker was made by the Lilin for him, and SEELE can't be considered as Lilin, so it's implies that WILLE are the ones who created it, they even had one and the schematics that goes with it!
So they must know who and what Kaworu is, if not they wouldn't had created a device specifically built to contain him.

Why can't Seele be considered Lilin? They might be brains in a vat, but they're Lilin brains in a vat.

Also, note that Gendo was referred to by Kaworu as "King of Lilin"... So at least Gendo is still Lilin.

SPOILER: Show

Interesting sidenote - "Rei" is also a Hebrew given name for one who retained his loyalty to King David when David's 4th son Adonijah rebelled. This would be the same King David of the famous David v. Goliath mythos... The one who stood against the Philistine giant when they challenged the Israelites.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Wille created the DSS Choker. I think it's safe to say that Ritsuko likely had a hand in designing it, seeing that she can freely program it. But I wouldn't presume Wille to have the R&D budget nor free access to Angels to test on like Seele or Nerv may. Personally, I'm still leaning towards Wille taking either the schematics or the choker itself when it split.

But I can agree that Ritsuko would have known that it was built for Kaworu, since Gendo displayed a lack of trust in Kaworu and eventually wanted him gone from the picture. Seele probably didn't have a use for the choker though...

So when when the DSS Choker detected a pattern Blue coming from the wearer and identified him as the 13th Angel, Mari connected the dots and understood that Kaworu is inside EVA-13 with Shinji(since Shinji obviously isn't an Angel) and is the one wearing the Choker, and she also understood that Gendo also tricked Kaworu, Shinji and SEELE and have his own agenda.

I think we don't have all of the information here. With the information I was given in Q, there's gotta be more to this because the Choker didn't immediately detect an Angel wearing it which means a non-Angel entity can become Angelic. There's no obvious rule here that says that Shinji can't become one.

So I'm not sure how Mari connected the dots between "choker identifies the 13th angel" and "Kaworu is inside Eva-13" unless it was specified somewhere that Kaworu is in a Lilin-esque body but can manifest as the 13th Angel.

[Chroma]

If it was meant to operate in a split second it was a big failure - but perhaps we must assume that Kaworu had the capability of delaying its operation, and indeed chose to let it explode in the end.

Kawuro's a bit of a special situation, though. Not only is he already a full blown Angel, but he's the Angel of Free Will. So you may be right about him choosing to put his guard down and let it explode, or there could've been that time gap because he's already an Angel and it took a little bit of time for the DSS Choker to know that he went from "dormant" to "activated 13th Angel".

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I doubt that Kaworu could have done anything about the choker's activation, considering that it was designed to stop something so dangerous that it might destroy a giant floating fortress with an A.T. Field.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well, the time it took for detonating was still really too long for not thinking that Kaworu might had be blocking the detonation, although temporarily, until he could finish his goodbye speech to Shinji.

[Chroma]

^
Well, the time it took for detonating was still really too long for not thinking that Kaworu might had be blocking the detonation, although temporarily, until he could finish his goodbye speech to Shinji.

The only way I could explain that away is
>Kawuro is "dormant" for most of the movie. Yes, he's angelic but none of these powers and abilities are activated
>Unit 13 activates, Gendo's plan kicks into action
>Spear troubles
>Kawuro is "reactivated" as the 13th Angel
>The reactivation is recognized by the DSS Choker, code:blue, Kawuro get's a bad headache.

I assume the collar would do the same were Rei wearing the choker and then activates her Angelic powers.

[Warren Peace]

^
Well, the time it took for detonating was still really too long for not thinking that Kaworu might had be blocking the detonation, although temporarily, until he could finish his goodbye speech to Shinji.

Could it perhaps be a security feature? Like the equivalent of an "Are You Sure You Want To __? Yes/No" window on a computer? However the process works, a delay like that could give the detonating party* an opportunity to cancel the detonation, or maybe even warn the collared individual to quit their misbehavin' before shit gets real.

*Worst parties EVER

[Reichu]

Kawuro is "dormant"

Kawuro is "reactivated"

Kawuro get's a bad headache.

KAWORU

It's for your own good, sonny.

[Chroma]

KAWORU

It's for your own good, sonny.

...Yeah. I've always had a pretty hard time trying to spell his name. It's the u/w thing.

Mi dispiace.

[K40s]

We had some pictures of the different modes that Ritsuko goes through in the DSS chocker, at the time it gave me the impression that the chocker was programmed to auto-detonation and Ritsuko changed it to manual detonation (probably on Misato's orders) before handing it to her, in my opinion Misato was the only one able to manually detonate the choker and she did so at the end still thinking that it was Shinji the one wearing it. It explains a few things:
1) Ritsuko urging Misato to use it before it got out of range when Shinji escaped, if it had an auto-function it wouldn't matter if it went out of range.
2) The chocker only exploding after Misato is in range and as a last resort when she realizes that they won't be able to pursue Eva-13th with the Wunder and the only option left is the choker, and Misato says: "Shinji-kun" with an air of terror/concern/I'm sorry, etc...

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Scrolling through options doesn't mean one deactivates in favor of another. There is no reason to believe both can't be active.

In the end if the detonation was manual it would have been clearly shown. Pushing buttons is cool as fuck. You don't leave that out.

[Chroma]

Yeah, she may have scrolled through the options but there's no sense that she turned any kind of auto activation off. That'd have been shown.

Similarly, had Misato actually detonated it at the end, that'd also have to be shown. It was her biggest struggle in 3.33, and having her blow it up without a scene showing that she made the decision would be terrible.

[monitoradiation]

We had some pictures of the different modes that Ritsuko goes through in the DSS chocker, at the time it gave me the impression that the chocker was programmed to auto-detonation and Ritsuko changed it to manual detonation (probably on Misato's orders) before handing it to her, in my opinion Misato was the only one able to manually detonate the choker and she did so at the end still thinking that it was Shinji the one wearing it. It explains a few things:
1) Ritsuko urging Misato to use it before it got out of range when Shinji escaped, if it had an auto-function it wouldn't matter if it went out of range.
2) The chocker only exploding after Misato is in range and as a last resort when she realizes that they won't be able to pursue Eva-13th with the Wunder and the only option left is the choker, and Misato says: "Shinji-kun" with an air of terror/concern/I'm sorry, etc...

As with TD's self destruct sequence, it would not make much sense for a security device such as the choker to NOT have an automatic with an accompanying manual detonation. You need both options for it to be foolproof (Kaworu's speshulsauce powers aside).

The crux of the question is which one of the functions was activated to blow up the collar - and if manual, who did it. Based on what was shown in Q on screen (Misato's reaction on Wunder, Ritsuko's comment about not knowing who stopped 4I, alongside what Chroma and TMB said, and what Fuyu and Gendo said) still leads me to think that it was the awakening detection function that did it.

[ElMariachi]

Also remember that the collar started to glow and show the Angel Sealing Glypses before the Wunder rams EVA-13 and everything that goes after(Mark.09's hacking and Misato whispering Shinji's name), it would be possible that she was the one who manually detonated it if the DSS Choker started to glow after EVA-13 escape the Wunder's AT Field cage, Misato's whisper being an apologies to Shinji about what she was going to do, but the glowing appeared before, clearly implying that it activated automatically.

[monitoradiation]

Also remember that the collar started to glow and show the Angel Sealing Glypses before the Wunder rams EVA-13 and everything that goes after(Mark.09's hacking and Misato whispering Shinji's name), it would be possible that she was the one who manually detonated it if the DSS Choker started to glow after EVA-13 escape the Wunder's AT Field cage, Misato's whisper being an apologies to Shinji about what she was going to do, but the glowing appeared before, clearly implying that it activated automatically.

I agree with you about the automatic activation, but two things to add:

1. I caution against connecting too many dots together. We don't know what the manual detonation range of the choker is, nor do we know how far away Wunder was when the choker started showing angelic glyphs. The scenario you described above is only prima facie evidence that Misato didn't press the button.

2. On Wunder in the interrogation scene, Misato clearly had the choker armed and ready to blow up once she pressed the button. There were no funky noises, angelic sealing glyphs, glows, or anything coming from the collar. This means that if Misato were to manually detonate, there would be no outward signs from the choker indicating that it'll blow. During 4I, the collar was glowing and showing angelic glyphs.

While this does not immediately mean that she did not manually detonate the collar (since she may have had time to detonate it after the awakening detection but before the automatic detonation kicked in), this does seem to decrease the possibility that she pressed the button because the way the choker acted differed from what was shown in the interrogation scene.