Misato's relationship with Shinji in 3.0

[ultrassjstuart]

Nobody seems to have addressed the fact that adults are entirely responsible for the actions of the children in their care. Gendo was Shinji's parent and Misato his Guardian. Regardless of not having foresight, Misato accepted this responsibility and along with it, is responsible for Shinji, a 14 year old child's actions. She was also his commanding officer, responsible for shaping his development in that area also.
The fact is, she was in charge of the operation against the last angel in 2.0 when Gendo tried to get unit-01 to work under the dummy system, she failed, regardless of IF she could've succeeded, the fact remains she was ineffectual in what was in fact her duty, forcing Shinji, who had quit, to pilot again, her attitude and decision not to be more open with Shinji also effectively threw him back into Gendo's arms again in 3.0. Why has nobody addressed this point. You can blame Shinji as much as you want, but the point remains: 14 years old = child, therefore whomever is the guardian of said child is responsible for their actions. Ergo Misato/Gendo responsible in equal parts.

Don't get me wrong, if Shinji were say 18 years old and just a whiny, bitchy soldier. Then YES, I can accept that he would be responsible. But the simple, bottom line is, Shinji Ikari is a child, he relies on the adults to guide his path and help him make the right decisions. That was Misato's job and also Gendo's. Misato cheered him on during that last battle and Gendo pulled the strings from the shadows. And as for the other bit-players of NERV, who cowered on their knees in the dirt?...well, need I even say more? They were pathetic. Shinji Ikari was their last resort after all their failures, and simply acted as best as they had molded him up until that point.

And as for the DSS Choker, which Ritsuko calls 'the symbol of his punishment' to his face (oh, sure... WILLE were simply a little paranoid and cautious and not being overly callous... because THAT's not a callous statement to say to a confused 14 year old child)
I reiterate, because of their responsibility, the choker isn't a symbol of Shinji's punishment. It's the symbol of their guilt, and the fact they'd then put it on the one they guided down that path, is merely the final act of their shame.

[Bagheera]

Nobody seems to have addressed the fact that adults are entirely responsible for the actions of the children in their care.

That's a Western perspective, though. Japanese have different viewpoints on both responsibility and age of majority, so we have to take that into account when evaluating Shinji's actions.

[ultrassjstuart]

What age exactly do the Japanese class children as adults fully responsible for their actions then?

[Bagheera]

What age exactly do the Japanese class children as adults fully responsible for their actions then?

As young as 14 and as old as 20, depending on prefecture and context. My understanding is that, in a lot of respects, 14 is to them as 18 is to us (which is why mecha show protagonists tend to be around that age). But if you're talking about military service or citizenship or various other things it's much older. Someone more familiar with Japanese culture could probably elaborate/clarify further.

[ultrassjstuart]

Point accepted in that case. If a little bizarre from an outside perspective, but I've seen too much of google image to be shocked any more by what the Japanese class as acceptable...

I'm lookin' at you, Rule 34

I suppose I'll just always just be stuck in the mentality of feeling that adults blaming children for their failures to be morally reprehensible...


Ah, to heck with it, there's always 4.0. Plus the manga, considering it's downturns, has been quite sweet lately.

[Rei IV]

You know, after watching some very specific, key scenes from the recent Evangelion 3.33 BD rip, it's amazing how sensationalized the mistreatment of Shinji at the hands of Misato and the Wunder crew. It was severely (and grossly) exaggerated and not rooted on anything based on reality, IMHO. With that said, I just wanted to add how I've been pondering for a while if Misato isn't putting some some sort of facade in regards to the reappearance of Shinji. That is, we have "Captain Katsuragi" and we have Misato Katsuragi. We see that she seems to have great difficulty reconciling with the fact that Shinji is back in the picture and I always thought the reason behind that was because of the whole mirror-reflection type of thing, in other words, she can't look at at him without realizing that, in some ways, she's at fault and what a fuck-up she is (from her perspective). You have to remember that this is someone with her own set of deficiencies and personal demons, other things to consider would be these:

-14 years have gone by, meaning we're some were around 2029-2030ish, that's basically almost 30 years after the 2nd Impact, something that was a very traumatic event for her and an example of "wounds that will never heal".

-With the above mentioned, Misato may see herself somewhat culpable for the near 3rd Impact. Yes, Shinji was no longer under her watch and therefore no longer her responsibility but that still won't change her intimate connection with the pilot of Unit-01, who's the driving force behind these events. Misato may have some guilt for having of use 14 year old school children for her own self-serving, agenda (her hatred for the Angels). We know in both continuities of NGE and the theatrical movies, it's quite clear she's acting on her own interest herself in regards to destroying the Angels.

-Misato, for a moment, selfishly endorsed Shinji's recklessness and to do what he wanted until she became aware of the dire consequences of what he had done and what has actually happening. She also mentioned that she didn't care for humanity to Shinji before leaving her the apartment prior to the arrival of the 10th Angel. Surely these things must be on her mind and realizes, as someone mentioned here, she cannot afford this mindset with the current predicament humanity is in (and Earth). All of this, to some degree, has come back to bite in her ass.

Guys, I'm sorry if I wasn't very well able to articulate my thoughts regarding Misato and the dynamics of her relationship with Shinji and I'm even more sorry for potential grammar and spelling errors. Just wanted to add a new perspective to things given the polarizing nature of the movie and attempt to explain some of what went on from another character's POV, that is, look at things from THEIR eyes. I disliked how for a moment, she was demonized by some fans because of her actions here, to the point of making herself the new anointed "evil bitch" of Evangelion. I really like Misato here and I've come to appreciate her character in the franchise. She's the truly certified badass Evangelion 3.33 and there's a lot going with the character even for a movie that's Shinji-centric, and her being a pilot/Captain of giant Angel-like ship is even more awesome.

Again, apologies if there's any lack of clarification of my part.

[Brutalman]

What age exactly do the Japanese class children as adults fully responsible for their actions then?

According to this Library of Congess article on children's rights in Japan they have a juvenile justice system, but offenders between the ages of 14 and 20 could be tried as adults at the discretion of judges, especially in the case of multiple homicides. It says that as a general rule this happens if they're 16 or over.

This paragraph makes it fairly obvious that Misato and the rest of Nerv would be breaking a whole lot of laws putting 14 year olds in harms way:

The Constitution provides that children shall not be exploited.[41] The Labor Standards Law has provisions to protect child workers. The Labor Standards Law prohibits employers from employing children until the March 31 immediately following the child becoming fifteen years old.[42] March 31 is the end of a school year. Children are obliged to go to school usually until that time. Children thirteen years old or older, however, may be employed if the labor is light and not injurious to their health and welfare, and if the employer obtains permission from the local Labor Standards Administration office.[43] Children under thirteen years old can be employed only in motion picture production and theatrical performance enterprises, upon permission of the Labor Standards Administration office.[44] An employer cannot employ a person under eighteen years old for extended-hour or night-time work.[45] An employer also cannot assign a person under eighteen years old to dangerous work, e.g., maintenance or repair of machinery during its operation and mining.[46]

But I very much doubt any laws of Japan actually apply to Nerv in practice.

Wikipedia claims the age of military service in Japan is 18.

TL;DR: Japan is pretty much the same as most Western countries.

[ElMariachi]

I resuscitate the topic, because of a comment that often come back according to Misato's supposed feelings of having failed to correctly handle Shinji during his stay in the Wunder, and thus being partially responsible of 4I, notably her face when she's unable to pursue EVA-13 after Mark.09's attempt to hijack the Wunder and after everything is over, but when I see the two scenes,

when she's unable to pursue EVA-13 after Mark.09 attack :

SPOILER: Show

and the last shot of her in the movie, when the Wunder is leaving the battlefield with the damaged EVA-02 and 08 :

SPOILER: Show

I'm the only one who don't see a regretful Misato, but an extremely pissed off one?
For me it doesn't looks like she's thinking "if only I had explained to Shinji and what happened and had more tact all of this wouldn't have had happen", but more something along the line of "goddamned snotty brat, I give him a second chance by not detonating that collar, and that's how he thanks me, by starting another Impact! When I get my hands back on him I will gouge his puppy eyes with my own hands and throw him in the deepest and darkest cell this ship have!"

[Bagheera]

Nope, not seeing it.

[pwhodges]

For me it doesn't looks like she's thinking "if only I had explained to Shinji and what happened and had more tact all of this wouldn't have had happen", but more something along the line of "goddamned snotty brat, I give him a second chance by not detonating that collar, and that's how he thanks me, by starting another Impact! When I get my hands back on him I will gouge his puppy eyes with my own hands and throw him in the deepest and darkest cell this ship have!"

Would she still be saying "Shinji-kun" in that case? He may be trying her up to the limit, but she has not yet gone past it; and if after all this she can still say that, there is hope yet for her to help him.

I can relate those expressions to feelings I had just once or twice about my own children (and believe me, I had reason) - but even so, I did not throw them out.

[Kendrix]

Well, what else should she call him?

If you, for some reason, came to want your little brother's guts on a silver platter, would you pull out the last name on him?

Removing the suffix would make it sound *more* intimate, not less; Other suffixes would imply a degree of respect that isn't there.


That said, I think Misato's line of thought would be less among the lines of, "You bastard, I'll eviscerate you!" and more "I let him live so it's my responsibility to kill him." (...as a mother who has a child that isn't even human)

[Rei IV]

So wait, people are now questioning and looking into things where Misato is shown that, behind her cold demeanor, is someone who is very, very, very conflicted, possibly hurt and someone who deeply cares for a kid (and possibly loves) that has an atrocious mean streak of blowing up the planet...TWICE! for not getting his way and not mention being overall reckless. Can you say "desperately reaching"? Nevermind the very, VERY, VERY few times we see Misato's face, her expressions to seem to be that of frustration, anger, sad, and "moody", and, as mentioned before, someone desperately trying to figure everything out.

Has Misato joined Yui and Asuka in the ranks of "evil bitches" of Evangelion yet? Someone please come to Misato's defense, PLEASE. We need to balance out the over the top character empathy for Impact-kun.

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[pwhodges]

Someone please come to Misato's defense, PLEASE.

I thought I already did...

[ElMariachi]

Has Misato joined Yui and Asuka in the ranks of "evil bitches" of Evangelion yet? Someone please come to Misato's defense, PLEASE. We need to balance out the over the top character empathy for Impact-kun.

She has joined them from the same day the movie was released on theaters!

Now, I'm not saying that Misato is any kind of "evil bitch" nor that she's not conflicted about Shinji's return(the scene where she couldn't activate the DSS Choker is more than enough proof of that), I just wanted to talk about that precise point of the faces she makes at the end. Everyone says that it's a face of regrets, but if she was regretful her eyes would be at least a little downcast or not focusing on anything, but in the shots I posted, she's frowning, has her eyes squinted and focused and is gritting her teeth.
OK so maybe I just suck at recognizing emotions in a drawn face, but for me Misato's face express more anger than regrets. Or its anger born from regrets, but then how could we know it was because she regrets that she wasn't nicer to Shinji and not because she let her emotions overrule her obligations when she couldn't activate the DSS and it almost ended in another catastrophe?

[Ornette]

Removing the suffix would make it sound *more* intimate, not less; Other suffixes would imply a degree of respect that isn't there.

It's a lot more complicated and nuanced than that, especially when it comes to when a precedence has been set. Having used one honorific and suddenly change to another doesn't suddenly mean more respect or less respect. Suddenly switching to "Shinji-san" can actually be an insult if they we on the comfort level of using "-kun" all this time, just as removing the honorific can be insulting given the context.

[Kendrix]

It's a lot more complicated and nuanced than that, especially when it comes to when a precedence has been set. Having used one honorific and suddenly change to another doesn't suddenly mean more respect or less respect. Suddenly switching to "Shinji-san" can actually be an insult if they we on the comfort level of using "-kun" all this time, just as removing the honorific can be insulting given the context.

I'm aware of that, but I don't think the whole "mockery with false politeness" thing is Misato's style.

[Bagheera]

Has Misato joined Yui and Asuka in the ranks of "evil bitches" of Evangelion yet? Someone please come to Misato's defense, PLEASE. We need to balance out the over the top character empathy for Impact-kun.

We try, but as time goes by it's becoming more and more obvious that it's pointless. People have already made up their minds one way or the other, so why waste time arguing?

[Lennik]

I think the problem here is that it becomes more cathartic for certain people to pretend that Shinji is a victim of everyone's sudden hatred and that he would be better off committing suicide. I think in part that's because that type of thinking is the easy way out. The people saying these things are afraid, like Shinji is afraid, that he is too far gone, that everyone hates him, and that there can be no redemption for him. They're so afraid of this that they refuse to see any evidence that his situation is not as hopeless as it looks at first glance.

If the situation is hopeless, if everyone he cares about hates him, then there's no point in him trying to fix things, because he's doomed to fail. And that's easier than knuckling under, because hope is scary. That's the mindset I see in a lot of people here, and it won't do someone like Shinji any favors.

[Kendrix]

that he would be better off committing suicide.

No one's seriously claiming that, dude, nor is anyone seeing that as an actual ideal solution.
Of course him becoming an adult and somehow earning back everyone's basic respect would be the *ideal* outcome, it's just that with the bleakness seen in this movie, it's more the HOW than the IF that's the problem.

We're perfectly aware of what kind of message Anno was *in theory* trying to convey, but it looks like he wrote himself into a corner here.
Not accounting for any genius plans in his sleeve for us to blindly trust in.

Maybe the difference in mindset here is merely the belief wether there are things *worse* than death or not, I dunno.
It#s not that we (or at least I) somehow like the idea of everyone hating him and the chance of him ending up alive and actually better off for it.
It's that, from seeing these images and reading this text, it's HARD TO SEE AN OTHER CONCLUSION.
It just doesn't seem likely.
If you don't immediately see "utter hopelessness" in these images, then... I don't know. IT's an obvious thing that should jump into your faces, except, obviously, it doesn't.
It's like arguing wether some bag something is green or yellow, or wether something looks pretty.
What arguments can be used to argue about perception itself? If anything, percieved things/facts can be used as building blocks to argue other conclusions, but if it's like we saw two different movies, we'll only end up talking apples and oranges.
Obviously, a lot of people find different things in this movie equally fundamentally obvious to a degree that leaves no doubt, like there CAN be no other conclusion.
This, in itself, is quite interesting - one could wonder if that's an intended effect, a reflection of certain value systems/philosophic positions of the viewers (utilitarian vs. motivation-based, perhaps?), or a failure in writing/unambigously conveying the point.

But to go "the other side is just stupid/doesn't get it" is quite arrogant, if you ask me.


...Because, WHY shouldn't we run away?
WHY should we grow the fuck up?

In theory, because it doesn't help.
And so we all can attain higher happiness, or avoid greater loss, both for us and others.
This is true for a basement dweller, but is it true for someone who unwittingly ended up torching the biosphere?
But can he even still get any of this by any way other than Deus ex machina?
Will growing the fuck up *actually help* in any other way than a completely philosophic, phyrric victory? You know, à la "LastB". It IS conceivable for Anno to do that, he almost did.