I have some questions about Asuka…

[C.T.1290]

So, bear in mind, I haven’t seen the final film for myself. I just got some spoilers, so my knowledge of it may not be accurate.

With Asuka being a clone, does it make her a little less human, added to her being an angel hybrid? I mean, she doesn’t need to eat or anything, just gain nutrients from water. And yes, clones are still technically human, but just a copy of one and not a real deal, with no identity of their own.

Also, she had to go through some brutal ordeals where had to complete with the other candidates to pilot unit, who are basically her sisters, so to speak. And the losers are terminated with the sole survivor remaining. And that had me thinking; do you think that Asuka might’ve had some guilt or remorse for having been forced to kill her sisters, or did she think that her own survival was more important so that she can be the one true Shikinami?

I kind of feel that the Rebuild movies had dehumanized Asuka to some certain extents. And that trial NERV put her through? It’s just…damn. They sure put the kids through some horrible ordeals. Sure, having the kids fight against the angels to save mankind seems like a just cause. But what they put Asuka through? That’s just messed up. And having her live without a family to begin with, no one to provide care for her. It’s like the series have her story be even more sadder than Soryu’s by being on par with Rei’s, by being just like her. But, at least Kensuke was kind enough to treat her like a person, and Asuka was sure glad to have some parental figure. I guess the last film ended on a positive note by having Asuka grow up finally, so maybe that gave her a little closure, if you call it that.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

There are competing schools of thought when it comes to this.

Some people are convinced that none of the pilots are human at all and that they are representations of the four Adams, or other biblical analogues. The evidence to support these claims is lifted from various writings on mysticism. Frankly, I don't know enough about Kabbalah or other more esoteric frameworks of the divine to be able to disprove this. However, I do find the claims to be somewhat unlikely, as these claims seem tenuously circumstantial at best.

But talking about Asuka being a clone and whether or not that makes her less human, I personally don't think it does. The most obvious comparison for me to make is Asuka to Rei, seeing as Rei is the only character we've definitively known to be a clone in NTE up until Shin. In NGE, we know she was a Yui clone with Lilith's soul; I don't think this is ever explicitly confirmed in NTE, but let's pretend she still is for the sake of argument. Gendo does say that the Ayanami series and Shikinami series were created for Unit 13, so does that mean that Asuka has something else's soul in her? Maybe.

What I personally think is that Asuka is a clone of another human, and in that sense is as "human" as the rest of the characters. I don't like the implications for the narrative if Asuka is somehow less human than everyone else. I believe it would rob her of the same impact the 14-year timeskip had on everyone else. Relating to Shinji, Asuka, even Rei, and the rest of the cast as humans is one of the things that makes me love Evangelion so much, and I would hate to lose that in Asuka's case or in the case of any of the other characters.

That said, after her possession by the 9th Angel, I do think Asuka stops being human... and I think for that to have any impact, she needed to be human in the first place. Even if a clone is a copy of someone else, the copy isn't any less human or without its own identity. People may treat them that way, but I certainly don't think it's true! Does Asuka have guilt or remorse for what happened to the other clones-- who knows? Her upbringing hardened her, and I'm sure that had an effect on however she feels toward the other candidates that were disposed of.

But at the end of the day, I still like Asuka's character. She was my favorite girl from NGE, although Rei may win that position for me in NTE.

[Derantor]

I don't like the implications for the narrative if Asuka is somehow less human than everyone else

How would her being an Adams make her less human, though? Gandalf wasn't "less human" because he was was an ancient godlike being taking the mantle of the old, grey wizard. NGE already spelled it out that Angels and Humans are basically the same; I think the same holds true for NTE. Rei was Lilith all along, too, and probably still is. Kaworu is Adam. So characters being in fact ancient godlike beings is nothing new. Doesn't invalidate their struggles or robs them of impact, I think. Just shifts the perspective slightly.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Gandalf is a bit of a strange example, because I certainly wouldn't argue he's "human" in a fantasy world that goes out of the way to show us that there is a very specific race of people who are humans, and most of our main characters aren't one of them! Gandalf may take the form of man, but I would hardly argue he is one.

If Asuka and our main cast of characters aren't human in the same way as Misato, Ritsuko, Gendo, and the rest of our supporting cast, I really do feel it takes something away from their presentation. Angels and humans are certainly not "basically the same", they're entirely different evolutionary paths and possibilities of what the other could have become.

In the case of Rei and Kaworu, I think an element of what makes their characters so compelling is that we're meant to start relating to them as human only to learn later they're something more (or less?) and then be forced to reconcile our thoughts about what they are. Shinji and Asuka, by comparison, were our two human characters who have these crazy, mystical things happening to them, and they're just like us and everyone else. Shinji trusts Kaworu on a very intimate level, and the revelation that he is an angel betrays Shinji!

Making all the pilots into these ancient godlike beings takes away the human element of relating to them. In the case of other characters that aren't human but who we're led to empathize with, we relate to them on a different level because of it. It doesn't invalidate their struggles or rob them of impact, but it certainly changes that impact, and I don't think it's necessarily better.

Is it worse? I certainly can't speak to that, and I can't say it's not true. I certainly hope it isn't, though. In the same way Kaworu and Rei's reveal changes our perception of them, it's strange if Asuka goes from being an ancient godlike being to being an ancient godlike being that now oh whoopsie has a bit of the 9th Angel in her (instead of being human first). I don't think this is a slight perspective shift, I think it has staggering implications for how we relate with these characters, how these characters relate to one another, and how these characters think of themselves and perceive their own actions along with our ability to recognize and speculate as to their mental states.

[Derantor]

I think Gandalf was one of the characters who showed his humanity a lot. He was in no way alien or strange; excentric, maybe, but not on some different, incomprehensible level of existence. His emotions were very human. His fear of carrying the ring himself was the same fear Galadriel had; another "non-human-but-actually-human" character. Boromir reinforced that fear of the corrupting effect of the power the ring promises, and Frodo showed why that fear wasn't unfounded - he actually was corrupted by the ring. Speaking of, Sam and Frodo are just two normal people caught up in an adventure against their will. Hobbits, yes, but ultimately human. Just like the friendship between Gimli and Legolas was something that could have happened to Bob and Joe. Just like the dalmatians in 101 Dalmatians are antropomorphized animals, but, ultimately human characters.

Angels and humans are certainly not "basically the same", they're entirely different evolutionary paths and possibilities of what the other could have become.

But they are. They too are lonely; they too struggle to connect. They seek their Mama - that's their primary motivation. They try to understand themselves and other beings. Misato even bemoans the fact that humans and Angels can't coexist. They look different, they have different abilities from humans - but ultimately, they're just like us. Shinji feels betrayed by Kaworu, that's true - because he was told that he has to kill all the Angels to save humanity, and he thinks Kaworu tricked him. But did he, really? Were their interactions before Shinji knew Kaworu was an Angel not real because of that? Was Rei's story any less sad or impactful or relateable on a base level (facing neglect, fearing abandonment and loneliness, etc) because it turns out she was Lilith all along? Or because she was a clone? She's an Angel in a very literal sense, but you wouldn't know that if you only watched the first half of the show. She's just a strange, reclusive human, and Shinji treats her like that. That was kinda the big deal about their story.

Same goes for Shikinami. Sure, you might be unable to relate to being billions of years old. But you can relate to feelings of betrayal, disappointment, resentment and regret, love and loyalty and a sense of fairness and duty, all things she shows throughout. Just like you can relate to Wall-E, or other non-human characters. Ultimately, all stories are written by humans for humans.

I don't think this is a slight perspective shift, I think it has staggering implications for how we relate with these characters, how these characters relate to one another, and how these characters think of themselves and perceive their own actions along with our ability to recognize and speculate as to their mental states.

This is conflating a few thinks, I think. If you can relate to non-human characters in principle, finding out that Asuka is an ancient god is only a slight adjustment. She might be a talking cat or a robot or a clone; at least one of those things doesn't change your perspective on her all that much. It all depends on where you draw the line between who you consider human and who you don't consider human. I grew up on Star Trek, so superficially alien races actually being just like us comes naturally to me.

Now, the impact on the inter-character relationships and their self-perception is of course rather large. Asuka does not go from "ancient god to ancient god who has a bit of 9th Angel in her"; she goes from "Ancient god forced into human form but being unaware of that" to "being denied both fully human and fully god-like form while being fully aware of it", being caught in a torturous limbo at the behest of Gendo and Misato. A situation a lot of people can probably relate to. "I know who I really am, I feel it deep down, but I can not live like that - but I know I can not be the thing people want me to be, either." Just exchange "ancient god" with "gay in the 1950s (or today, depending on where you live)" or something. Or any other form of alienation. Of course, it also makes Shinji into a shithead who doesn't understand anything and proceeds to make her punishment complete by ultimately binding her to human form so that she's allowed to exist in his brave new world, while all supernatural/Eva-related stuff is banished to some other dimension (if he's lucky, and not outright genocided them all - that would be a big "whoopsie" moment). "Here, Mermaid, you're now permanently forced to be a human without being given a choice, and will never be able to return to the ocean! Aren't you happy now? Say hi to Kensuke to me! " <- It's okay because he smiles. So what changes is not the relatability of the basic struggle ("I can not live true to my nature"), but the outcome of the struggle. Possibly. Maybe Asuka wanted to be a pure human all along, who knows. In that case, Shinji granted her most heartfelt wish and is a hero (I doubt it, though).

Now ... does that make him less relatable as a character? Not really. He's just a kid trying to do the right thing. He's also a depressed, traumatized and possibly brainwashed mess, so his decisions might not be the best. I certainly wouldn't hand him the fate of the world. Especially not because he goes from almost catatonic to apparently "enlightened" in the span of a few weeks at most. Doesn't sound like a manic phase following depression or anything ... but sure, you grew up all on your own by thinking things through, and then you put the fear of God into Gendo by your mere presence. Doesn't sound like a fever dream at all ...

But, to be frank, I can relate to Shinji less than I can relate to Shikinami, or really anybody else from the cast, and not because of anything related to his nature, but because NTE!Shinji is just so dense, uncurious and uninterested in the world around him. That's just something alien to me. I want to know things. Shinji doesn't. Sure, don't ask why Kaworu doesn't have to wear a suit when he shows you the world you destroyed. Unimportant details. Never ask what the spears actually do. Never ask people what they actually want, just assume what they want. It's fine to forgive your genocidal, megalomaniacal father who gleefully bred and terminated possibly thousands of little Shikinamis, who turned the whole world into core and used everybody and everything to further his demented plan ... You're a good guy, Shinji! You are totally in a position to forgive Gendo's sins, and make decisions on everbodies behalf, Misato granted you a spear which contains "humanity's will" or some other vague concept like that, so it's totally fine!

In all of what I wrote above, Shinji's possible nature as an ancient god doesn't even figure in yet. It might add a few layers, but it doesn't take anything away from what's already there if we see him as only human. We see his personality, and how it affects his decisions. That won't change, even if it turns out he's actually a horse like Bojak Horseman. But again, that's depending on whether or not you want to see the Adams as human. Same difference as to whether or not you want to see Frodo as a human character, or Gandalf or Wall-E or Nono from Diebuster or Marvel Universe Thor or .... any number of characters written by humans for humans to explore human struggles. Thor being sad that his hammer broke could be Bob being sad that his Wii-U broke. Nono wanting to save the world is no different from Noriko saving the world, despite Nono being a robot. She's also just a normal girl, just like Noriko.

Edit: To bring this back to the original question:

do you think that Asuka might’ve had some guilt or remorse for having been forced to kill her sisters, or did she think that her own survival was more important so that she can be the one true Shikinami?

I'm pretty sure she feels a lot or regret having been forced to kill her sisters (even if it was by proxy - doesn't really change anything. Imagine you're playing Call of Duty online, and then later you learn that all the players from second to last place were eliminated because you beat them all - might have pulled the trigger yourself). She's also aware that it was the only way for her to survive; and while she is later willing to give up her life in the fight against Gendo, I doubt she'd want to sacrifice herself for the sake of others at the time of the Battle Royale. She might try to convince herself that she deserved being the sole survivor because she was the best, but she seems pretty self-aware in Shin, so I doubt she'd be able to push it all back down. Makes her comment towards Misato in Q ("A single life isn't important any longer, right?") much more pointed, too. She knows what's up. Misato is Gendo-light. "Just burn up in the atmosphere if you have to, the only thing that matters is getting Unit 01 back." Same Misato, later: "You were only using the Shikinamis and Ayanamis as tools??!!! How could you, Gendo?!"

[ElMariachi]

Rebuild has a continuous theme of what makes someone human, and the answer is clearly that it's not just a question of body, because humanity aren't just animal eating, sleeping and fucking, but what set them apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is what they created and the knowledge they build and share: Kaworu is an Angel yet found his humanity through music and his love/obsession of Shinji, Rei II found hers in trying to connect to other people and try to bring them together (notably Gendo and Shinji), for Rei Q it was the simple work of farming and caring for a baby and discover what the world had to offer beyond the sterile walls of neo-NERV HQ, for Mari it was the accumulation and preservation of knowledge through books, on the other end of the spectrum Gendo gradually lost his humanity (in the end physically as well as emotionally) for the sake of his plan, showing doing nothing but scheming to advance it, SEELE is similar, having abandoned their bodies and were always busy scheming to bring Instrumentality to "purify" humanity into non-sentient immortal beings...

Asuka is an interesting case in that she was dehumanized by NERV from the beginning by having her compete against her "sisters" for the right to be the only one to survive and have a semblance of life, then when she finally started to have something resembling a normal life, had it robbed from her and ended in an inhuman body, unable to age, eat, sleep and if that cut line of dialogue is still canon, unable to have a sexual life, and on top of that has to live constrained with an eyepatch and a sealing pillar inside her eye to avoid the remnant of the 9th Angel to ressurface, and unlike Mari who found her humanity through books, Asuka tried to isolate herself from her human roots and spend all her free time holed up somewhere repeatedly playing the small console over and over again (yet still can't completely isolate herself, as her relationship with Kensuke, longing for Shinji and friendship with Mari shows), that's why I think that it's a shame that this character arc was solved by Shinji magically giving her a human body conform to her idea of what's human, instead of having her discover that being human is not just aging, eating, sleeping (and fucking), as if the story vindicated her feeling that indeed, she wasn't human at all and couldn't be as long as she didn't obtained a 100% normal body.

And that same theme could had been explored by Shinji, had the curse had the time to affect him, but the events of the movie ended way before that.


@Derantor : err... I think you're assuming a lot of things here, notably that the pilots are the four Adams in a human body (when Asuka having been mass cloned and Mari being alive before Second Impact debunked), but for Asuka she made it abundantly clear in Q, Shin and the prequel manga that she absolutely despise her Cursed body, and I think that the story missed the opportunity to have her reconnect with her humanity earlier, for me it's clear that she still would totally want to have back a body able to age, eat, sleep and fuck. (same thing for Mari)

I do agree with you that Shinji's near complete lack of curiosity in Q is grating, but I chalked it to his immaturity that is big character flaw, especially in this movie: his tendency to not question things as long as they make him feel good and discard everything that might go against his current goal or feelings, that's why he didn't questioned why did his father only seemed to acknowledge him when he pilots, why could Kaworu survive without a hazmat suit outside NERV HQ, what he was doing there in the first place, what exactly happened 14 years ago, what exactly did Kaworu planned to do with the spears and how they worked, why is there an unknown Eva fused with Lilith and why they are the "epicenter of Third Impact" since according to Kaworu Shinji himself was the cause of everything, and also why he completely rejected Kaworu's pleas to stop when he noticed that the spears were the wrong ones.

And I thought that Shin would tackle this by having him start being curious about things surrounding him and stop taking things at face value and instead try to understand how things and the world actually works (which is literally what Mari told him to do at the end of Q) and thus start to unravel the Georgian Knot that was the events of the past 14 years and beyond, where does he fit in all this and what other people actually want and think of him... but instead the movie decided that the lesson he should learn is to unconditionally accept punishment for his sins and try to understand and forgive the monster that made his whole life miserable, just because he's his father.

[Konja7]

I do agree with you that Shinji's near complete lack of curiosity in Q is grating, but I chalked it to his immaturity that is big character flaw, especially in this movie: his tendency to not question things as long as they make him feel good and discard everything that might go against his current goal or feelings, that's why he didn't questioned why did his father only seemed to acknowledge him when he pilots, why could Kaworu survive without a hazmat suit outside NERV HQ, what he was doing there in the first place, what exactly happened 14 years ago, what exactly did Kaworu planned to do with the spears and how they worked, why is there an unknown Eva fused with Lilith and why they are the "epicenter of Third Impact" since according to Kaworu Shinji himself was the cause of everything, and also why he completely rejected Kaworu's pleas to stop when he noticed that the spears were the wrong ones.

I think Shinji's "lack of curiosity" is because he is pretty self-centered. After all, in Q, he was pretty curious about things that concern himself.

Shinji being self-centered is definitely a flaw in his character. In Shin, he grows out of his self-centered personality.


I should say it's possible Shinji really understood NTI and ATI were different events in his conversation with Kaworu. Maybe that wasn't supposed to be an example of his "lack of curiosity".

And I thought that Shin would tackle this by having him start being curious about things surrounding him and stop taking things at face value and instead try to understand how things and the world actually works (which is literally what Mari told him to do at the end of Q) and thus start to unravel the Georgian Knot that was the events of the past 14 years and beyond, where does he fit in all this and what other people actually want and think of him... but instead the movie decided that the lesson he should learn is to unconditionally accept punishment for his sins and try to understand and forgive the monster that made his whole life miserable, just because he's his father.

The lessons for Shinji in Shin seem to be these two: he must stop escaping from the pain and he must stop being so self-centered.

This isn't a case of a character unconditionally accepting punishment. The story treats Shinji as being guilty, which is necessary to convey the messages.

I understand you are uncomfortable with the lack of explanations, but the message isn't unconditionally accept punishment.

[Derantor]

Rebuild has a continuous theme of what makes someone human [...] Gendo gradually lost his humanity

I think we need to clarify terms at this point. What does "Gendo losing his humanity" actually mean when we see that, in the end, he's still reacting like a scared human bound by the hedgehogs dilemma when confronted with Shinji? Clearly, his fundamental nature did not change at all, and you pointed out how "humanity" doesn't have anything to do with your physical existence. If even a god, a nonhuman, identified as such by himself and other cast members, is subject to such human emotions - isn't the distinction between "human" and "god" a purely semantic one?

@Derantor : err... I think you're assuming a lot of things here, notably that the pilots are the four Adams in a human body (when Asuka having been mass cloned and Mari being alive before Second Impact debunked), but for Asuka she made it abundantly clear in Q, Shin and the prequel manga that she absolutely despise her Cursed body, and I think that the story missed the opportunity to have her reconnect with her humanity earlier, for me it's clear that she still would totally want to have back a body able to age, eat, sleep and fuck. (same thing for Mari)

None of that is incompatible with the pilots being Adams, though. Rei is Lilith, yet she has her own clone series, and was obviously also around before Second Impact, same goes for Kaworu. Mari is herself ancient. She's Maria of Iscariot. She was also an adult when Shinji was a toddler, now she's fourteen again. So whatever went on with her is at this point a big mystery. So that's three out of five pilots who turn out to be ancient beings - at this point, it's almost easier to assume that the same goes for the other two than assuming they're just normal humans. And if they are - why do their eyes glow? Why do they have to wear chokers?

As for Asuka's cursed body: agreed, she despises it. But again, she can despise it because it is not fully human or because it is neither "god" nor "human"; Nuke pointed out some time ago that the "curse" is actually a binding spell, and Asuka says that the restraints were "built in at the point of [her] creation." So the curse was already in place in Ha, when she appeared to be just a normal human at first glance. So yeah, maybe she wants a normal human body back, maybe she wants her god-body back. I think her "losing her humanity" is to be taken along the same lines as Gendo losing his humanity: she might give up on human form, but the Asuka who fights against Unit 13 and gets taken in by Original Shikinami is still the same Asuka we knew all along. To quote Reichu:

One of the points in Shin Eva is that, even if "gods" are semantically no longer "human", it's just a technicality. Everything that is "human" exists within what is called a "god". Cue Gendo's shock when his son still has the ability to emotionally affect him, lol.

Edit: "that's why I think that it's a shame that this character arc was solved by Shinji magically giving her a human body conform to her idea of what's human" Well, to be fair, for all we know, Shinji was making her conform to his idea what a human should be like ...

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

There's a difference between "It is possible to interpret these characters as gods in human form, if we examine the film through this particular framework" and "This character is definitely a god in human form, and if you don't agree you probably just watched it wrong". It's a framework of viewing Evangelion that feels less plausible than it does probable, ie. "There's nothing in Evangelion that specifically says the pilots aren't Adams, so therefore the idea has standing".

Characters being human or not doesn't take away our ability to relate to them, but it certainly changes how we view them in retrospect. You brought up Star Trek, so how about The Measure of a Man? Obviously we relate to Data throughout the course of the series, he's certainly a no less engaging character, but an important aspect of that episode is that his fate is being fought over by humans. If Picard and Riker were revealed to be not humans but some other kind of android, for example, that would absolutely change the story! Would it make it worse? I don't know, it could be very interesting to watch a debate between different kinds of human-created life arguing over what the rights of other human-created life is. But it wouldn't be the same story anymore, and the ways we would perceive those characters relating to one another would be changed.

That's what I meant when I was talking about Shinji's interactions with Rei and Kaworu. The significance interactions are not minimized, certainly from Shinji's point of view, who can't "learn" things that the audience is already privy to on subsequent rewatches. But the way we as the viewer interact with them is changed, as well as our ability to speculate on what Rei and Kaworu feel when they respond the way they do. Rewatching the series knowing Rei II is a clone makes you feel different, doesn't it? I don't think a character not being human somehow makes them worse or less valuable as a character, I think it makes them different.

So this comes back to Asuka and Shinji as our human characters. If we make them into Adams, then we can't contextualize their behaviors as human anymore. It changes our relationship to them as characters. You mentioned WALL-E: part of what's so wonderful about watching the interactions between WALL-E and EVE is that it's something we can relate to on our own level as humans, even though the characters are demonstrably not. In the same way I think it would radically shift how we interpret Evangelion to make Asuka and Shinji into immortal Adams in human form, it would shift WALL-E if any of the robot characters were suddenly revealed to, say, have their thought patterns based on a living human from somewhere. I won't speculate as to whether or not it would be a worse movie, but it would be very, very different.

There's so much about the world of Evangelion that changes if we turn Asuka and Shinji, who we've presumed to be human, into these strange immortal creatures. Derantor, you've remarked on how it says a lot about Shinji's motivations if this is true! All the more reason to think before making these sort of broad, sweeping statements about the characters and taking them as fact. An idea like the pilots being the four Adams pulls on so many different sources outside Evangelion itself that it becomes a broad, expansive, nebulous web, and the damaging of any one portion allows the creator to retreat into the safety and snug embrace of their other connections.

Also, don't quote me on that Japanese analysis section, because it's not what I said. Evangelions are a) 留める todomeru restricted by human will, and b) have 呪縛 jubaku placed upon them by humans. The 'Curse of Eva' Asuka refers to in Q is jubaku, and when she talks to Rei Q in Kensuke's house, she uses... none of these words, actually. She opts for 抑制 yokusei, a more generic control/restraint/suppression. The conversation itself is in the context of Rei Q wanting to go find Shinji and ends with a discussion about how Rei's emotions are baked into her, and she's just doing what she's programmed to do.

The difference between humans and gods clearly isn't semantic, it comes with a tremendous amount of power! Gendo sacrificing his humanity could mean maybe he doesn't age, doesn't sleep, doesn't eat, doesn't do a lot of the same things we think of humans is doing. His emotions and fear of Shinji would seem to be in spite of this transformation, not something that comes part and parcel with it.

A couple notes about Mari and Asuka: we never get confirmation that Mari is the adult woman in the photo with baby Shinji, while we do see her (or someone who looks very much like her) as a teenager in Gendo's university flashbacks. Asuka also had a child's body at one point, if her flashbacks are intended to be reliable and taken at face value, so she's been maturing and growing all this time. (And she's more than happy to chow down on Shinji's bento in Ha.) Mari's deal is still a mystery for now, but I think there's quite a clear line between Asuka before Q and Asuka after Q. Making Asuka and Shinji into strange immortal beings may not make their story together worse, but it certainly affects the lens through which we see it (and then through their interactions with other characters as well. God Asuka talking with Misato, God Shinji talking with Kaji... these stop being human-to-human moments and become something different.)

It almost feels like reading a fanfiction where all these grand elements have been organized and painstakingly linked with the characters and set dressings from Eva, all in an effort to create a hybrid story that marries these separate elements into a cohesive mythology. I can understand how it may feel inviting to embrace this way of understanding Evangelion and its characters, feeling like you're discovering bread crumbs Anno left behind and having revelations that allow you to crack some grand code and bring together the true way of understanding the films, but it's exhausting to see it brought up repeatedly as "self-evident".

[Axx°N N.]

I don't see what Shinji and Asuka being immortal beings adds and I don't think NTE would refrain from making that obvious if that was the intention. "Doesn't change or add much but does effect the lens" is anyway a method NTE does do, except with Kaworu and the whole "it's a loop but from where it comes from nobody knows" thing and with Mari's nebulous "she's important, but it's not important" significance, and it doesn't hide it. We should really be discussing those and whether or not they add, detract or even matter for the brief time that's spent on them instead of inventing new asspulls. NTE isn't subtle and never has been. I'll never forget pages of theory about the runes in the 2.0 preview and what it might mean in an ancient mythological jewish mysticism sense only for it to be discovered that it's a rather throwaway Ultraman reference.

[Derantor]

"This character is definitely a god in human form, and if you don't agree you probably just watched it wrong".

Well ... good thing that I didn't say "If you don't agree then you watched it wrong", then, and neither made any claims of absolute truth.

Characters being human or not doesn't take away our ability to relate to them, but it certainly changes how we view them in retrospect.

That's literally the opposite of what you said:

Relating to Shinji, Asuka, even Rei, and the rest of the cast as humans is one of the things that makes me love Evangelion so much, and I would hate to lose that in Asuka's case or in the case of any of the other characters. [...]
Making all the pilots into these ancient godlike beings takes away the human element of relating to them.

Edit: Also, in case it isn't clear what I mean here: you said it yourself. You relate to the human aspects of Wall-E, because that is literally the only thing you can relate to. You can only relate to human things because you yourself are a human. You can relate to things that are similar to things humans do. When you see a dog in pain, you can relate to the pain because you can feel pain. Therefore, there is no difference between relating to "Wall-E the robot" or "Wall-E the human" or "Wall-E the ancient god", because you always relate to the same things: those you can recognize in yourself. Making Asuka into an Adams takes away none of the things you relate to. It changes other things, sure, but not those. Besides, this is incredibly silly on account of Asuka not actually being a human to begin with - she is a fictional Anime-character, a drawing on a screen. You are relating to the human aspects of an artificial creation, an immitation of a human that doesn't even actually exist. Asuka does not have feelings or a body. But you believe the fiction that she does. You just arbitrarily set a limit on that fiction: "Relating to "fictional teenaged Anime character that's a clone of a human but also doesn't exist" as a human is fine, but relating to "fictional teenaged Anime character that doesn't exist but also is a clone of an ancient god" as a human is not possible."
Edit 2: Also, I just noticed, you listed Rei as a character you relate to as a human - which completely defeats the initial point you were making and which I was arguing against, and renders this whole discussion completely absurd, because Rei is not a human, and never was. She always was a weird ancient godlike being. The only thing Adams Theory would do to Asuka is make her the same as Rei. Soooo ... what was your concern again?

Rewatching the series knowing Rei II is a clone makes you feel different, doesn't it?

No.
Edit: It's such a vague question, too - make me feel different about what? Rei as a character? Rei as a human being? What Gendo did to Rei? What it means for Shinji that Rei is a clone of his mother? Am I supposed to feel different about her? In which dimension?

then we can't contextualize their behaviors as human anymore.

Why? You had no trouble doing that with Wall-E or Rei, what's the difference here?

Derantor, you've remarked on how it says a lot about Shinji's motivations if this is true!

Yes! I did! Because I wasn't arguing that it doesn't change anything about the characters or the details of the plot, I was arguing that it doesn't take away our ability to relate to them and see the human struggles they go through, which you just agreed with! Or, to quote myself: "Now, the impact on the inter-character relationships and their self-perception is of course rather large. [...] So what changes is not the relatability of the basic struggle ("I can not live true to my nature"), but the outcome of the struggle. Possibly. Maybe Asuka wanted to be a pure human all along, who knows. In that case, Shinji granted her most heartfelt wish and is a hero (I doubt it, though)."

All the more reason to think before making these sort of broad, sweeping statements about the characters and taking them as fact.

Oh no, I have a different interpretation, that's so dangerous! Screams in horror. I found an interpretation that makes the story more interesting for me, how horrible! I could poison the minds of young, impressionable people, DESTROYING their formerly correct view of the film. You are right, Nuke, I am disgusted and appalled by myself ... I will think next time before I act, thank you so much for showing me the light, I will refrain from ever saying anything but the blandest most shallow surface-level interpretations I can come up with. I will also type the "Possibly. Maybe [...]" part in 100 point bold red text next time, to help with readability.

An idea like the pilots being the four Adams pulls on so many different sources outside Evangelion itself that it becomes a broad, expansive, nebulous web, and the damaging of any one portion allows the creator to retreat into the safety and snug embrace of their other connections.

Ehhhh ... no. All those outside sources are, as you said, a way to figure out a framework. But the framework itself is solely built by things actually in the movies. You can completely remove all the names or connections and still have the framework that the movie itself presents, if you actually care to look out for it. You know, things like the covenant with Lilith. And as for "damaging those outside sources" - Blake's mythology has four Adams (Edit: they're not called Adams, obviously; they are called Zoas). Our current working theory has five, because four doesn't make sense for NTE. So we are constantly "damaging" those outside sources, because they do not work like you think they do. Adams theory is not "NTE is Blakes mythology, everything has to fit into Blake's framework!" It's "Taking everything we see in the movies, how do we make sense of it?" Blake might offer useful parallels to help us figure out what's going on in NTE. All the evidence for the theory comes solely from the movies. That the framework doesn't collapse the moment you disprove one single part of it only means that it's at this point rather robust, but changes to the details are still necessary.

Also, don't quote me [...]

Okay, won't quote you then. But you're kinda missing the forest for the trees here. Your objection is that there are two restraint systems in place - Curse of Eva and General Restraints. But that doesn't touch on the fact that the pilots were restrained to human form at the point of creation. Why would you need to restrain a human to human form?

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The difference between humans and gods clearly isn't semantic, it comes with a [i]tremendous[/i] amount of power! [...] [Gendo's] emotions and fear of Shinji would seem to be [b]in spite of[/b] this transformation, not something that comes part and parcel with it.

Since when did power ever change anything about the human heart? I'm sure there's a Spiderman-comparison somewhere in there. (Edit: you are basically arguing that Spiderman isn't really human any longer because he's got a tremendous amount of power.) Also, that's your interpretation. Movie outright shows that becoming a god doesn't rid you of human emotions, and that gods do, in fact, have human emotions: see Rei and Kaworu at the very least, if you want to discount Mari. Edit: Gendo apparently believed that it would, as do you - but Gendo turned out to be wrong, it seems.

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God Asuka talking with Misato, God Shinji talking with Kaji... these stop being human-to-human moments and become something different.)

I'm repeating myself, but that only holds true if you interpret "Gods" to be fundamentally different from humans, or if you are unable to see interactions between gods and humans as having elements of human interaction. "But Thor is an Asgardian! I can not see him talking to ... whatever that woman from the first Thor movie was called as a human interaction anymore!" You know, that does sound rather silly ...

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I can understand how it may feel inviting to embrace this way of understanding Evangelion and its characters, feeling like you're discovering bread crumbs Anno left behind and having revelations that allow you to crack some grand code and bring together the true way of understanding the films, but it's exhausting to see it brought up repeatedly as "self-evident".

Evidently it's not self-evident, otherwise there would be no need to compile the evidence from the movie to make even a small point. As a fun anecdote, back in the day, people strongly resisted the idea that Kaworu is Adam and that Rei is Lilith. Something that is now just taken for granted. Now, before you get your panties in a bunch, that's not proof of anything. I am not saying because that other thing turned out to be accepted, Adams theory will turn out to be accepted - maybe it's all a load of bullshit, and will be disproven five minutes from now. It's just a reminder that just because something is new and different and being resisted for that reason, it isn't necessarily false. And I'll be perfectly happy if it all turns out to be fanfiction, too. Then at least I got an interesting story out of an otherwise rather bland movie-series.

@Axx°N N.: It ties together a lot of hints given throughout the movies and gives explanations for things otherwise having no explanation, offering deeper understanding that way. As for NTE not being subtle: I don't know where that meme originated from. Yes, NTE can be incredibly on the nose, but other times, it does stuff like having Misato be happy after Shinji visits his mothers grave with his dad, saying this:

Misato: See, Shinji? Seeing your dad was OK, wasn't it? Aren't you glad you came? You were able to pay your respects to your mother.　　　　　
Shinji: I only came because you made me, Ms. Misato.

Now, she's smiling while saying it and when hearing Shinji's answer, but why? Shinji certainly isn't happy. That's because Misato is using Shinji vicariously again. She outright says to Shinji that she's the same as him when she notices that he doesn't get along with his father. But while Shinji doesn't get along with his father, he still wants his approval and love. Misato is probably the same, because that's just a very human thing to feel. So, while both her parents are dead, and any chance to have a moment like Shinji just had is no longer possible for her, she can still experience it vicariously through him. And that's why she's pleased in that scene. Another thing where NTE likes to be incredibly subtle is when it refuses to show the characters expressions at important moments - I guess that goes beyond subtlety, even. Or the subtle ways in which it changes the characters right from the start, deliberately reusing scenes from the show to do so, e.g., during his tantrum following the Unit 03 incident, NGE!Shinji screams about Gendo hurting the pilot of 03, but whispers "and you used my hands to do it ...", while NTE!Shinji screams that last part, giving us a hint that he's much more self centered than NGE!Shinji ever was. Something you'd only notice if you're familiar with the series and pay close attention to the differences.

[ElMariachi]

I think Shinji's "lack of curiosity" is because he is pretty self-centered. After all, in Q, he was pretty curious about things that concern himself.

Shinji being self-centered is definitely a flaw in his character. In Shin, he grows out of his self-centered personality.

In Q he wasn't in any hurry to ask what the hell happened to anyone, it's only when he received a shirt with Toji's name on it (probably Gendo's doing) that he couldn't stand anymore not knowing what happened to his friends and made him ask to Kaworu. Same thing for the Ayanami-series: he never asked why she was acting so different, and it's Fuyutsuki that info-dumped him by tricking him into a game of shogi.

And it's the same in Shin: the two only thing we see him ask in the weeks he stayed at Village-3 was "was it hard for you" to Toji and "what happened to Kaji" to Kensuke (and only after meeting Kaji Jr), that's it.

His near total disinterest toward everything surrounding him is infuriating, especially after Q all but screaming at him that he should start paying attention to what's around him and try to understand how things are ("Trying to understand how the world works" to paraphrase Mari) if we wants to stop being a tool or a pawn for everyone to use, and he just... doesn't.

I should say it's possible Shinji really understood NTI and ATI were different events in his conversation with Kaworu. Maybe that wasn't supposed to be an example of his "lack of curiosity".

The fact he's surprised by seeing Lilith's cadaver in Q and that Kaworu has to quickly explain to him implies that he didn't know about the second Third Impact. Hell seeing the state of Lilith's chamber is the first clue for us viewers that there was an "actual" Third Impact.

Through all four movies we closely follow Shinji, and everything important he learns, we learn it at the same time, there are no instances of him learning something important "offscreen" and us viewers learning it afterwards, so I don't see it happening with what's literally the core event of his character arc in the second half of the saga.
So for me, if we don't see him making the connection that there were two Third Impacts, that means he never learned it.

The lessons for Shinji in Shin seem to be these two: he must stop escaping from the pain and he must stop being so self-centered.

This isn't a case of a character unconditionally accepting punishment. The story treats Shinji as being guilty, which is necessary to convey the messages.

I understand you are uncomfortable with the lack of explanations, but the message isn't unconditionally accept punishment.

Sorry, but for me when someone accepts to be punished without even trying to understand what exactly happened, just because the figures of authority says that they sinned and must be punished, that's unconditionally accepting punishment.

[Konja7]

The fact he's surprised by seeing Lilith's cadaver in Q and that Kaworu has to quickly explain to him implies that he didn't know about the second Third Impact. Hell seeing the state of Lilith's chamber is the first clue for us viewers that there was an "actual" Third Impact.

That scene only shows that Shinji doesn't know Lilith was the epicenter for the Third Impact.

However, the fact Shinji isn't surprised or confused for a Third Impact that has Lilith as epicenter implied that he knows there was a second Third Impact.


Not to mention that this wouldn't be an offscreen discovery. Kaworu tells Shinji than the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact. It's pretty possible Shinji understand with only that conversation that the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact are different events.

It wouldn't be weird that Shinji feels guilty, because the Near Third Impact he released initiated everything (especially since WILLE blames him for that).

Sorry, but for me when someone accepts to be punished without even trying to understand what exactly happened, just because the figures of authority says that they sinned and must be punished, that's unconditionally accepting punishment.

I understand your point.

I guess Khara don't want to convey that message, but it's an unfortunate implication from them wanting to mantain the "mystery" about the connection between Near Third Impact and Third Impact.

[ElMariachi]

That scene only shows that Shinji doesn't know Lilith was the epicenter for the Third Impact.

However, the fact Shinji isn't surprised or confused for a Third Impact that has Lilith as epicenter implied that he knows there was a second Third Impact.

Not to mention that this wouldn't be an offscreen discovery. Kaworu tells Shinji than the Near Third Impact was the trigger for the Third Impact. It's pretty possible Shinji understand with only that conversation that the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact are different events.

That would be an offscreen discovery if he immediately understood that there was an actual Third Impact, because it's nearly impossible from Kaworu's explanations to understand that another Impact happened several weeks to months after N3I.

I took Shinji not realizing what Lilith's cadaver and Kaworu's explanation meant as another example of his immaturity that makes him take things at face value and discard every information that is contrary to his current belief, especially since he let this flaw affect him once again shortly after when he grabbed the spears despite Kaworu's pleas for him to stop.

It wouldn't be weird that Shinji feels guilty, because the Near Third Impact he released initiated everything (especially since WILLE blames him for that).

It's not weird for him to feel guilty because nothing in the movies shows him understanding that there were two Impacts, instead of believing that everything that happened did during his N3I.
The only "hints" that appears in his presence are Kaworu's extremely cryptic words that are impossible to take as "actually there were two Third Impacts" if you don't know about it beforehand, and when he saw Lilith's cadaver, to which he didn't showed any sign of understanding that this means that there was another Third Impact, in fact he could had even thought that Lilith awoke because of N3I. (and I remember several members of the forum believing that too)
And then Asuka attacked and Shinji entered into full panic mode.

In fact, scratch what I said in my previous post: the real first clue to the viewers that something doesn't add up is when we see Mark.06 fused to Lilith's neck and Kaworu explaining that it was turned into an autonomous unit, while us viewers saw the very same Mark.06 piloted by Kaworu stopping N3I. (it's one of the few moments in Q where we know more than Shinji)
The 12th Angel appearing sealed the deal that there was a huge part of the story that Kaworu didn't told Shinji (and us), but by then Shinji was too confused and panicked by EVA-13 not responding anymore that he didn't connected the dots.

[Konja7]

in fact he could had even thought that Lilith awoke because of N3I. (and I remember several members of the forum believing that too)

I though Lilith being awoken because of N3I was a possibility. In fact, it's still possible, since we don't know how that Third Impact started.

We don't know if 12th Angel or Mark-06 have a role in the start of this Third Impact. They seem to take control of Lilith body at some point of the Third Impact, but we don't know if they started it.

The 12th Angel appearing sealed the deal that there was a huge part of the story that Kaworu didn't told Shinji (and us), but by then Shinji was too confused and panicked by EVA-13 not responding anymore that he didn't connected the dots.

I don't think it's impossible Shinji understood that there were two Third Impact from that conversation with Kaworu.

That said, you're right there is a lot of the story that Kaworu doesn't tell Shinji (another example: the Third Impact being stopped by Kaji's sacrifice).

However, I really doubt more explanations would change Shinji's perception of the situation, since the story wants Shinji to feel guilty.


The story of Shin still seems to work with the idea that Shinji is to be blamed for everything. They seem to mantain the explanation in Q that the Near Third Impact is the trigger for the Third Impact, even if they never explained how this works.


PS: My most cynical side thinks the so vague explanation given in Q is because the creators don't know how to connect the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact, but they need Shinji to feel guilty for the story.

[ElMariachi]

PS: My most cynical side thinks the so vague explanation given in Q is because the creators don't know how to connect the Near Third Impact and the Third Impact, but they need Shinji to feel guilty for the story.

That's actually what I think too, that Khara wrote themselves into a corner by wanting that the whole blame fall on Shinji, but it being impossible with how they wrote the events leading to the Red Earth. And I also think that's why they said that they aren't interested in exploring the events of the timeskip. (despite many viewers being interested in it)

That's also why I think that it wasn't initially planned that Shinji would be the sole responsible for it, because there's no way that Anno and Co didn't realized that the chain of events they designed was incompatible with his guilt if that was what was planned from the beginning, especially with how central to his character arc said guilt becomes in Shin.

... and I realize that I have derailed yet another thread, so that's all I'll say on that matter!

[Konja7]

That's also why I think that it wasn't initially planned that Shinji would be the sole responsible for it, because there's no way that Anno and Co didn't realized that the chain of events they designed was incompatible with his guilt if that was what was planned from the beginning, especially with how central to his character arc said guilt becomes in Shin.

I suspect they planned Shinji to be considered the sole responsible since the creation of Q. The guilty of Shinji is necessary and essential for the story in the last two movies.

I think they just don't know how to connect said guilt with the ending of Ha (and the ATI). So, they decided to mantain things pretty vague and cryptic.

... and I realize that I have derailed yet another thread, so that's all I'll say on that matter!

I should say the derailed of another thread is mainly my fault . I will stop too.

[TyroLuuki]

because it's nearly impossible from Kaworu's explanations to understand that another Impact happened several weeks to months after N3I.

Sorry to butt into this convo, but am I missing something here? Kaworu straight up tells Shinji in the revelation scene in Q that Third Impact occurred while he was absorbed inside Unit 13, and that's what caused the red earth. Kaworu even tells Shinji this event has been planned since ancient times, and that's Gendo/Nerv's true purpose. Then Kaworu says what initiated all of that in the first place was Shinji being the trigger for what the lilin call the Near Third Impact. Why is it impossible for Shinji to know there were two different events when Kaworu outright tells him there were? It seems like he knows very well that they are, but he still feels guilt for all of it because him initiating N3I is what led to everything else happening too. I don't know, Kaworu's explanation always seemed pretty clear to me. Maybe this is an issue with how the English translations render his dialogue, because the Japanese he uses is not cryptic in the slightest and actually fairly easy to follow.

[Axx°N N.]

@Axx°N N.: It ties together a lot of hints given throughout the movies and gives explanations for things otherwise having no explanation, offering deeper understanding that way. As for NTE not being subtle: I don't know where that meme originated from. Yes, NTE can be incredibly on the nose, but other times, it does stuff like having Misato be happy after Shinji visits his mothers grave with his dad, saying this:

Misato: See, Shinji? Seeing your dad was OK, wasn't it? Aren't you glad you came? You were able to pay your respects to your mother.　　　　　
Shinji: I only came because you made me, Ms. Misato.

Now, she's smiling while saying it and when hearing Shinji's answer, but why? Shinji certainly isn't happy. That's because Misato is using Shinji vicariously again. She outright says to Shinji that she's the same as him when she notices that he doesn't get along with his father. But while Shinji doesn't get along with his father, he still wants his approval and love. Misato is probably the same, because that's just a very human thing to feel. So, while both her parents are dead, and any chance to have a moment like Shinji just had is no longer possible for her, she can still experience it vicariously through him. And that's why she's pleased in that scene. Another thing where NTE likes to be incredibly subtle is when it refuses to show the characters expressions at important moments - I guess that goes beyond subtlety, even. Or the subtle ways in which it changes the characters right from the start, deliberately reusing scenes from the show to do so, e.g., during his tantrum following the Unit 03 incident, NGE!Shinji screams about Gendo hurting the pilot of 03, but whispers "and you used my hands to do it ...", while NTE!Shinji screams that last part, giving us a hint that he's much more self centered than NGE!Shinji ever was. Something you'd only notice if you're familiar with the series and pay close attention to the differences.

I'm not sure I'm liable to call any of that subtle, and I'm not sure I agree with your reading of why Misato is smiling, though I don't want to get lost in the weeds about it. Are we going to say any scene in which a character is smiling is subtle, just because we can attach to it our guesses at their interior reasoning? In that case, any scene with human beings is as subtle as the next, so long as one of them has a facial expression and doesn't explain aloud why--and maybe that's not actually so absurd a statement given how complex human beings are--but I digress. And in fact Shin seems to be full to the brim with characters explaining exactly what their inner worlds are (and always have been) with nary an exception. Changes w/r/t NGE being subtle or not relies on how much we assume we're meant to notice, and NTE being a project founded on a more mainstream appeal leads me to suspect it's not trying to be so heady or expect that kind of retrospective juggling, and rather that in many cases changes are just changes, made either for the sake of making things more evident (a scream is more instructive to how we're supposed to take something than a statement, and arguably less subtle) or just because it works better in the new context in order to fit in with changes elsewhere.

Given how open-faced so much of Shin seems to be, I don't see why it wouldn't similarly be open about its lore, or to put it more accurately, I don't think there's any lore it wasn't open about waiting to be large-scale rooted out. All the stuff with Seele, Adam, Lilith, the Spears etc. existed in enough shadow in NGE that they plausibly supported what was more important, the character story. Can we say the stuff with Adams, Minus Space, Eva Imaginary, and the Book of Life similarly fit together in a way that feels consistent enough to let slide in favor of the character story? NGE lore seemed like you could squint and make sense of the calculus, so long as you didn't get too close to what were maybe some rough rafter beams. But in NTE there don't even seem to be connecting joints. Even the theory that the children are the Adams doesn't make it seem any less random or arbitrary that a loop and extra dimension exist, and in fact the extremely overt nature of the character drama this time around seems instructive in the opposite sense about how foundationally stable the lore is meant to be anyway.

I fear that the films are more liable to being misread because of how long we've been left to wrack our brains over the missing pieces, and that at this point much has been glommed onto the narrative that simply doesn't exist within the narrative. Certain shots, possibilities, interpretations about what might have been suggested, assumptions and extrapolations have built up over the decade-plus, shading and directing the entry angle--loopers for instance have come out validated even though their overall assumption was proven wrong at the same time that non-loopers are crafting counter-theories arguing the looping doesn't exist using the loop itself as their starting point while the truth sits somewhere in the middle: there is a loop but it almost doesn't matter beyond Kaworu's character arc, and perhaps doesn't matter beyond his metacontext.

I just have a really hard time buying that the broad strokes are buried in any significant way, and "the children are Adams" is a huge broad stroke. NGE and EoE hid certain things but never the emotional broad strokes of its characters, and that includes characters that become like gods or always were. If what it means (and has always meant) for characters to go into Instrumentality is that we, the audience, penetrate into their deepest psyches and origins, why would it go the length of revealing to us that Asuka is a clone (something meant to shock and feel like hidden truth coming out with all its discomfort) but not that any of the characters are Adams? If the intent of staff were to be obscurantists and craft enigmas they wouldn't be on twitter clarifying and outright debunking certain readings like "Mari = Moyoco."

[FelipeFritschF]

f the intent of staff were to be obscurantists and craft enigmas they wouldn't be on twitter clarifying and outright debunking certain readings like "Mari = Moyoco."

I've heard about this a lot but haven't really looked into it yet, here or elsewhere, has it been specifically commented on, and preferably, translated?