Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

zenigamesquad007
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 10, 2021
Gender: Male

Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby zenigamesquad007 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:33 am

Can he? I'm curious to see peoples' opinions on this subject. You can take this question either from the point of view of you as the viewer, or if you think Asuka could ever forgive him.

BusterMachine4
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 16
Posts: 537
Joined: Oct 05, 2020
Location: United States
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:32 am

No. No chance at all. Just... no.

I mean, we all have our differing opinions on Shinji's morality and whether he was responsible for the pain and suffering in his life (my views on the issue are somewhere in the middle). But I think we can all agree that randomly jacking off to a comatose hospital patient is generally considered a bad thing. Like, really bad. I mean, holy crap, Shinji! You could have at least gone home before you did it!

zenigamesquad007
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 10, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby zenigamesquad007 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:45 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:No. No chance at all. Just... no.

I mean, we all have our differing opinions on Shinji's morality and whether he was responsible for the pain and suffering in his life (my views on the issue are somewhere in the middle). But I think we can all agree that randomly jacking off to a comatose hospital patient is generally considered a bad thing. Like, really bad. I mean, holy crap, Shinji! You could have at least gone home before you did it!


I didn't expect anyone to reply! To me, I think somewhat Shinji could be forgiven for what he's done if he'd sought therapy and genuinely became a better and more put-together person but with how NGE and EoE are, Shinji getting better is not likely.

Arcadia's legacy
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 1242
Joined: Jun 12, 2015
Location: United Kingdom
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Arcadia's legacy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:49 am

I would argue that he can, but it would require him working hard to earn it. If he and Asuka are able to form a stable-enough relationship post-EoE, whether that be lovers or just friends, then i'd say there's a chance of forgiveness. Not a guarantee, mind you, but a chance
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come
""Trolling the audience" is the same thing as "challenging the audience" (to an audience that doesn't want to be challenged)." -Reichu

zenigamesquad007
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 10, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby zenigamesquad007 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:57 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:I would argue that he can, but it would require him working hard to earn it. If he and Asuka are able to form a stable-enough relationship post-EoE, whether that be lovers or just friends, then i'd say there's a chance of forgiveness. Not a guarantee, mind you, but a chance


I agree with your interpretation on this.

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 6200
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:17 am

If you ask me "forgiveness" is a supremely unhelpful framework here.
Forgiveness from who? Unless you believe in a monotheist god (which is where the "forgiveness" idea of morality ultimately comes from) there's no objective dispensary or forgiveness and people's reactions are gonna wary based on who they are and their own stake in things.
It ultimately comes down to some light interpersonal version of heaven or hell - if we don't "forgive" then the offender is branded "lesser" forever, if we do no one is allowed to have negative feelings about the crime again. It's a childish idea of morals that puts the focus on evading personal blame rather than constructive solutions.
Sometimes some people can forgive you but others don't - you can be "forgiven" in the sense of being a normal member of society again having paid the consequences for your crime but that doesn't mean your victim has to forgive you. And the choice of wether to forgive or not might ultimately come down to what brings you more peace of mind which can be different for different people.

Now Asuka would be within her rights to press charges (that doesn't mean that she'd she'd want to or consider that a helpful solution is another question; but no one could blame her because her rights were without question violated) - that does constitute sexual harssment, but for a very young first-time offender under extreme situations the worst he'd get is a few hours of community service or he'd get off with a reprimand under the condition that he gets therapy.
I'd say the attempted murder is a heavier matter, but given that he was alone on that beach for god knows how long before Asuka showed up it's even more dubious how culpable he'd be considered.

It's something he did in a very extreme situation still in shock over Kaworu's death and the general desintegration of his life, not something he generally considers acceptable behavior - like cannibalism on a deserted island. There are definitely reasons that when he reached his breaking point it manifested like that, for reasons to do with character flaws etc. It's not the same as some old man who gets repeatedly arrested for indecent exposure 6 just does it regularly to get a kick out of grossing ppl out.
That said he knows he did it, he knows why and he'll carry that weight a long time.

Asuka would be fully justified in never wanting anything to do with him again (same the other way around though, because of her months-long bullying. Not that it is in any way equivalent or excuses what he did but it's both past the "nothing owed" line - not that either of them would be reasonable enough to choose that option, though. ), I don't think that it would be fair to inflict further consequences on him, cause he (and all the children, really) were basically glorified human sacrifices in this, tools worked until they broke.
Alas poor Kaworu, I knew him well...

Heaven Piercing Man
Sachiel
Sachiel
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 243
Joined: Oct 24, 2013
Location: Chile
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Heaven Piercing Man » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:34 pm

so has it come to this now, we must cancel Shinji?
Evangelion, in three words: How Strangely Erotic

BusterMachine4
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 16
Posts: 537
Joined: Oct 05, 2020
Location: United States
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BusterMachine4 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:57 pm

Well, I'd say that jacking off to a comatose girl and then wiping out the entire human race is a lot worse than accidentally saying something offensive in a tweet from 2007. :wink:

zenigamesquad007
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 10, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby zenigamesquad007 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:51 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Well, I'd say that jacking off to a comatose girl and then wiping out the entire human race is a lot worse than accidentally saying something offensive in a tweet from 2007. :wink:


Shinji: "It was just locker room jacking off!"

BernardoCairo
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Age: 18
Posts: 441
Joined: Dec 27, 2020
Location: Brazil

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BernardoCairo » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:23 pm

Shinji abused Asuka. Did it consume him afterwards? Yes. But she is still the real victim here and no one disagrees with that.
Contrary to what many people think, "sexual abuse" is not necessarily related to direct physical contact. Often, it is not just about a man literally having sex with a woman without consent. Usually, things are much more complex than that (psychological sexual assault, for example, is quite commonly used against women). In "real life", what Shinji did could very well have traumatized someone.
Imagine waking up knowing that someone masturbated looking at you, as if you were an object. You know that he deliberately locked the door to the room you were in and took advantage of your body in its most vulnerable state. To escape his pain and self-hatred, he disregarded your own humanity and treated you as nothing more than a "sex doll". That's horrible.
We know that Asuka found the act disgusting. But we have no idea how much it hurt her. We are all different, so it is difficult to measure things such as "pain". Only she can truly understand the magnitude of the situation. Therefore, only she has "the power" to forgive him or not.
We are aware that, by the end of the movie, they are more willing to love themselves and accept each other. However, in relation to the abuse, I cannot say what the long-term implications would be for Asuka, as I am not inside her head. I firmly believe that Shinji and Asuka still care for one another and are strong enough to overcome the Hedgehog's Dilemma. But Shinji's "inhumane" actions, in particular, are way beyond that.
On a side note, I don't think that I, as a man, can truly get a grasp at how scary a situation like this can be. I feel bad for Asuka and for all the women around the world who have to face this kind of sexual abuse on a daily basis. Shinji is my second favorite character, but he fucked up here, to say the least.
Last edited by BernardoCairo on Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.

zenigamesquad007
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 10, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby zenigamesquad007 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:48 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:Shinji abused Asuka. Did it consume him afterwards? Yes. But she is still the real victim here and no one disagrees with that.
Contrary to what many people think, "sexual abuse" is not necessarily related to direct physical contact. Often, it is not just about a man literally having sex with a woman without consent. Usually, things are much more complex than that (psychological abuse, for example, is quite common). In "real life", what Shinji did could very well have traumatized someone.
Imagine waking up knowing that someone masturbated looking at you, as if you were an object. You know that he deliberately locked the door to the room you were in and took advantage of your body in its most vulnerable state. To escape his pain and self-hatred, he disregarded your own humanity and treated you as nothing more than a "sex doll". That's horrible.
We know that Asuka found the act disgusting. But we have no idea how much it hurt her. We are all different, so it is difficult to measure things such as "pain". Only she can truly understand the magnitude of the situation. Therefore, only she has "the power" to forgive him or not.
We are aware that, by the end of the movie, they are more willing to love themselves and accept each other. However, in relation to the abuse, I cannot say what the long-term implications would be for Asuka, as I am not inside her head. I firmly believe that Shinji and Asuka still care for one another and are strong enough to overcome the Hedgehog's Dilemma. But Shinji's "inhumane" actions, in particular, are way beyond that.
On a side note, I don't think that I, as a man, can truly get a grasp at how scary a situation like this can be. I feel bad for Asuka and for all the women around the world who have to face this kind of sexual abuse on a daily basis. Shinji is my second favorite character, but he fucked up here, to say the least.


Thanks for replying! I posted this question because my friend and I were discussing whether or not we'd forgive Shinji in the situation, or if Asuka should. Personally I think what Shinji did is forgivable, but really it all depends on the mindset and opinion of the victim. (Note, I'm a person who's been sexually abused.)

RussianRiz
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 11
Joined: Jul 06, 2019
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby RussianRiz » Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:15 am

No, but Asuka is open to understand him in the end of EOE, so I guess they would discuss this stuff and its on Asuka's hands decide what she wants to do about Shinji in her life. Shinji can only endure this guilty and seek to overcome it by other means.

So yeah, Shinji is going to be canceled.

Zusuchan
Full/Super Moderator
Full/Super Moderator
User avatar
Age: 16
Posts: 893
Joined: Jul 23, 2020
Location: Estonia
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Zusuchan » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:06 am

I think whether or not Shinji can be forgiven would depend on his actions after the fact and how he'd try to make up for that and the other bad things he did.

zenigamesquad007:I noticed you quoted BernardoCairo's entire post, so just in case I'll say that if you wish to quote a post(which isn't necessary all the time, of course), only quote the parts most relevant to what you yourself are going to say, so as to avoid cluttered posts. Thank you.

Derantor
Full/Super Moderator
Full/Super Moderator
User avatar
Posts: 585
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Location: The Beach
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:26 pm

View Original PostBernardoCairo wrote:We know that Asuka found the act disgusting. But we have no idea how much it hurt her.

Not enough to reject him outright even after she learns what he did; she even goes to him again, stating her ultimatum in the EoE train sequence. And there's of course the final scene with her caress, after he does something even worse (trying to kill her). So ... while I can see her never forgiving him, it doesn't seem to preclude anything, either.

I agree with you, though: only Asuka can forgive him, and only he can forgive himself. The audience is merely an onlooker here, their forgiveness isn't really all that relevant. Can't exactly bring fictional characters to court. To me, the more important questions revolve around why this was included in the first place. What is it saying about us, or rather, what can we learn about ourselves when analyzing at it?

BernardoCairo
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Age: 18
Posts: 441
Joined: Dec 27, 2020
Location: Brazil

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BernardoCairo » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:57 pm

Derantor wrote:Not enough to reject him outright even after she learns what he did; she even goes to him again, stating her ultimatum in the EoE train sequence. And there's of course the final scene with her caress, after he does something even worse (trying to kill her).

Yeah, it is a complicated situation. As I said, I believe that Asuka still cares about Shinji and they are definitely willing to cooperate and become better people together (accepting themselves and each other). But it is impossible to precisely predict what she thinks about the "sexual abuse" situation. I think that "kimochi warui" is a great way to describe how she felt right after becoming an individual again and getting a grasp at what actually took place. In fact, I actually like how the movie starts with Shinji masturbating over Asuka's unprotected body and ends with her response to him. Miyamura's struggles paid off and she delivered what is, in my opinion, the best and most iconic line of the whole series!

As for Shinji's masturbation itself, I belive that Anno chose to start the movie with this scene because it sets the tone for the whole thing. It's basically him saying: "Yes. This is how fucked up this guy is right now. He is not a model, he is sinking into his own misery and he is hurting others around him. There's nothing good about it. He needs to change, now!"
In addition, this segment also sets the stage for Shinji's character throughout the whole film (especially Ar/Love is Destructive). Both his mentality and his actions are largely guided by this scene. It’s also a great way to visually convey Shinji and Asuka's dynamic at this point in the story.
First and foremost, we need to explore Shinji and Asuka's relationship in its entirety. I do believe that he cares about her and truly likes her in his own way. In a similar note, Asuka enjoy Shinji's presence and sees in him a compelling partner.
Unfortunately, during the series, the two were never able to "break the ice". What attracts them is also what drives them away. They are very alike and face basically the same problems (with the only difference being how they deal with those issues).
For Asuka, Shinji appears to be the one person who could actually understand her, but he also represents everything that she hates about herself. That's why she acts so bipolar towards him. Her head is literally confused.
For Shinji, Asuka appears to be the one person who could truly break the barrier created by his personal traumas, but she also represents everything that afflicts him. That's why he acts so bipolar towards her. His head is literally confused.
In a way, their relationship truly embodies the Hedgehog's Dilemma. They are always hurting each other and this all culminates in The End of Evangelion.
By the beginning of the movie, Shinji was mentally destroyed and had no one. In Asuka, he saw a way of escaping from what was actually torturing him, his self hatred. In his eyes, she could be that person who would be there for him, despite all. The problem is that he was only thinking about himself while imagining all of this.
We see him going to visit Asuka, but it was not for her. He is in that hospital for himself. He wanted Asuka to wake up, so he could feel better about himself. He was objectifying her to the point of masturbating to her comatose body. At that moment, she was nothing more than a means for him to escape his pain for a while (even though he was consumed by it afterwards).
He wanted her to be around him, despite all the circumstances. And you know what? It could have been anyone. He didn't care if she was being nice to him or not. He just didn't want to be alone. He didn't want to deal with his problems on his own.

By the way, I am aware that the hospital scene is not literally the first in the movie. But I think that's where "the ball starts rolling".
Last edited by BernardoCairo on Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.

AngelsHalo
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 8
Joined: Feb 02, 2021
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AngelsHalo » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:29 pm

I think the thought you are supposed to leave EoE with, is that both Shinji and Asuka are willing to deal with each other and work together to become better people. So yes, I think Asuka did specifically forgive Shinji and the ending narrative of the series is the two of them trying to uphold the idea of improving one's self for the sake of others as well as yourself.
NGE Watch Count: 3

jcmoorehead
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 706
Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: Edinburgh
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby jcmoorehead » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:40 am

It is definitely a question that I've considered when I've wrote Post EoE fics. As I tend to ship Asuka/Shinji, it does pop up and ultimately I do go with Asuka forgiving him. With that said, I think sometimes people get the idea that forgiveness also equals excusing an action which definitely isn't the case. I do however go with Asuka forgiving him and just moving past the episode.

For Shinji, I also agree that it's something he needs to forgive himself for. Fact is, we all screw up, okay fair enough what Shinji did is on the extreme end of screwing up but we do all make mistakes, we will all hurt someone at some point in our lives whether intentionally or unintentionally, but there will be a time we have to say to someone 'I'm sorry.'

That person doesn't necessarily owe us forgiveness and we do have to deal with the consequences of that, which could be losing a partner, a friend or family member. Most of us though will also have to deal with our own guilt and learn how to forgive ourselves and move past it. It doesn't mean making excuses or going to extreme lengths to make amends, it doesn't make going to the end of the earth to patch things up if our apology is rejected, we aren't owed forgiveness when we screw up. Instead what we have to do is look at our behaviour, why it was wrong and learn how to do better next time.

Obviously, what Shinji did was quite an extreme thing, I don't quite think it's something likely to happen again because it happened after he had spiralled further and further down, he had lost everything and was grasping at anything to feel good. For him really, maybe it's just acknowledgement of his circumstances then, his own wallowing maybe led to that, so he has to move past that and forgive himself, with or without Asuka's forgiveness.

BusterMachine4
Sandalphon
Sandalphon
User avatar
Age: 16
Posts: 537
Joined: Oct 05, 2020
Location: United States
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BusterMachine4 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 am

View Original PostDerantor wrote:To me, the more important questions revolve around why this was included in the first place. What is it saying about us, or rather, what can we learn about ourselves when analyzing at it?

This is the real question. I know people have come up with their own explanations as to why it was included, but I still don't really see why it was necessary for Anno to include the scene in the first place. I know that it's supposed to convey Shinji's broken mental state, but maybe it could be conveyed in a way that isn't completely disgusting and sickening? As it is, I wouldn't really mourn the scene's loss if it was cut. It just creates too much of a gross-out moment for first-time viewers, and is probably the main reason why people incorrectly interpret the movie as being a middle-finger to fans.

zenigamesquad007
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 10, 2021
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby zenigamesquad007 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:51 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:...as to avoid cluttered posts. Thank you.


Sorry, I'm new here :P

Derantor
Full/Super Moderator
Full/Super Moderator
User avatar
Posts: 585
Joined: Oct 20, 2019
Location: The Beach
Gender: Male

Re: Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Derantor » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:00 am

@BusterMachine4: I think it only works so well because it is so gross. It tells you right away that there's no comfortable shroud covering the ugly sides of humanity in this movie. You are forced to experience it's darker depths, along with our capacity for compassion (even though the latter part is rather easy to miss among the barrage of nastiness). It's also kind of a red herring: it isn't the lowest depth Shinji sinks to in this movie, but people seem to focus on it. The EoE kitchen scene is basically a repeat of the hospital scene in that sense: again he goes to Asuka demanding help he should know he will not get (after all, she was sedated the first time around and couldn't help, even if she wanted to), and again he is rejected - and that time, he lashes out at her. Even if we say that his attempt to strangle her doesn't really count because she is at that point already "dead", a disembodied soul impervious to physical violence, there is still the actual, physical strangling on the beach in the final scene.

So we got a few questions to answer about ourselves right there: why is his sexual assault seen as worthy of removal, while his attempt to kill her is not? Is it not even more disgusting and sickening that he tries to strangle her for not giving him what he feels entitled to? Is the scene really about the sexual element - or isn't the breach of trust the more egregious offense here? The knowledge that, if we hate ourselves, we will hurt others by doing things to hurt ourselves?


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests