Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka?

[BusterMachine4]

Well, I think the pause between Asuka's breasts being revealed and Shinji climaxing was too long for it to have been a premature ejaculation. It seems like he was actually masturbating there, it wasn't an accident.

And I agree with Zusuchan, that fictional characters forgiving other fictional characters isn't a measure of whether they actually should be forgiven. Goku in Dragon Ball forgave Vegeta after he burned down an entire city, killing all the inhabitants. That doesn't mean that killing the entire population of a city somehow becomes a forgivable act. I think Eva fans in general have a tendency to act like the show's characters are real people, despite it being a fictional show about giant robots. I guess it's a testament to the quality of the character writing, but still.

[ChaddyManPrime]

Fuck us, Shinji does not need our forgiveness, nor does he need to earn it, we are not the victim. You can do 1 of 4 things; hate him, be meh about him, like him, or love him.

If we are talking about having him face consequences by rule of law, sure, if such rules were reinstated after Third Impact and Asuka decided to press charges, so be it.

But she came back to him, she wouldn't have if she didn't forgive him. She would have let him go insane with loneliness and have him do himself in eventually.

[BusterMachine4]

Dude, did you read my post? These characters are not real, stop acting like they are.

And I'd prefer if you didn't drop F-bombs constantly at people who disagree with you about a fictional show. It just feels needlessly aggressive.

[ChaddyManPrime]

The question is "Can Shinji be forgiven for fapping to comatose Asuka". I'm applying our precious emotions to whether we as human beings can forgive an imaginary character because that's all we have left to argue for the victim has already forgiven the victimizer in his own goddamn universe.

Sorry for the language, it is out of hand, but seriously, fuck our emotions when it comes to feeling outrage on someone's behalf.

[silvermoonlight]

Sorry for the language, it is out of hand, but seriously, fuck our emotions when it comes to feeling outrage on someone's behalf.

Please stop swearing at people who do not agree with you, people are entitled to their opinions, and you may not agree with them but that is how life is not everyone will agree with you, and you can't force others to agree with you...

[BusterMachine4]

Chaddy, I feel like you still don't get what I'm saying. The way you keep saying "You can't talk about whether you'd forgive him, because you aren't the victim!" kind of implies that there was ever a real "victim" in the first place. But Eva is a fictional story. The perpetrator isn't real, and the victim isn't real either. Because of that, the opinions of fictional characters on the issue don't really have any bearing on it. Fictional characters can be written to say whatever the creator wants. Whether a real person would forgive Shinji for his actions is a completely different issue, and it's the one we're trying to examine here. What a fictional character has to say about the issue means nothing.

[Zusuchan]

sithsauron:Like BM4 said, there's no reason to assume Shinji was doing anything else but intentionally masturbating while knowing full well the immorality of his actions at the time. I also think the impact of the scene would be lessened if it was an "accident", since the whole point of Shinji masturbating to Asuka was that he was in such a horrifyingly low point that he had become someone who just kind of crawls through life, letting himself be led by his basest instincts. The point was to show to the audience just how low Shinji had fallen and if it was an accident, the meaning would therefore be lesser.

ChaddyManPrime:I think the problem is you seem to assume that once a person has been forgiven, all is well- neither great art like NGE nor real life work like that, however. How many cases of domestic violence being "forgiven" by the victims for no good reasons are there in the world? Enough for it to have become just about a cliche. I feel that too much grandstanding is stupid, but still, when trying to look at people who have done bad and trying to ascertain whether or not they are worthy of forgiveness and under which conditions, I don't see a reason to look at them being forgiven by victims as a reason for me personally to agree they can now be forgiven, if I disagree with the victim's reasoning for forgiveness.

That is not to say Shinji can't be forgiven-I personally think he can. But I feel that this sort of reasoning based on what victims have done to those who have made them victims is a faulty logic, both when used for fiction and for real life.

Edit: Cleaned up a few typos and a sentence that I fucked up and which therefore ended up having a meaning different to what I wanted it to have.

[pwhodges]

Forgiveness is much more to do with the mental state of the forgiver than the forgiven.

[sithsauron]

I don't know Zusu, being that person who just crawls through life perversely doesn't switch-on overnight (or just after defeating the last angel in Shinji's case). Becoming a lowest low life is a process, which Shinji was really embarking on at that point. I don't believe he was regularly jerking off at that time (despite what Asuka said in the dream sequence, most of which I thought was hyperbole), and I certainly doubt he had time to jerk it given that he was aware Misato was spying on him on a day-to-day level, not to mention he works for Nerve who may keep tabs on him too, and Shinji has been depicted as spending more of his alone-time on the train than in his bedroom maybe even before joining Nerve. I got the feeling from the scene that Shinji was suddenly watching himself free-fall toward what could eventually be a pure scumbag level, and he realized what he could be capable of in the future by witnessing himself do something perverse and not having the will stop it. The scene did not give the feeling he was already a straight-up creep at that time and decided to whip-it-out just to prove it. Generally I believe you can't be a real pervert at 13 years old even intentionally despite being horny, but you can begin on the path at that age to eventually become one by 17-18 years of age at earliest. That's why I internally characterize the off-camera act as a clumsy un-hinged amateur attempt at instinctual self-arousal followed by sudden unplanned orgasm rather than practiced deliberate and premeditated masturbation. The act just kind of started and ended before Shinji had time to think about it and he got hit my an intense wave of guilt shortly after. But of course he is used to guilt and a little bit addicted to it, but his guilt-complex is another story.

[Zusuchan]

I feel that Shinji already had masturbated prior to the hospital scene-it's not like Misato was really spying on him or anything (I don't know where you got that idea from) and there's no reason to assume whatsoever Asuka was lying in the train scene (seeing as her and Shinji's minds were already intertwined at that point).

In my view, Shinji masturbating in the hospital scene is still more of an instinctual act the meaning of which he doesn't fully encompass when he does it. The thing is, Shinji is at a low point there. He has lost the one person he could still rely on, Kaworu, at his own hand no less. He feels tremendous guilt for that. He is scared of Misato due to her attempt to sleep with him and her refusal/incapability to adequately support him after Kaworu's death and he is scared of Rei due to his own complicated feelings toward her to begin with, now heightened due to her status as a clone of the girl she knew and a clone of her mother to boot. With Toji and Kensuke also away from Tokyo-3, Asuka is thus the last person he feels comfortable with, the last vestige of normalcy he still has in this fucked-up world. Now depressed beyond all hope thanks to his previous experiences throughout the rest of the show, he visits Asuka and wants her to wake up, so he can have some normalcy back in his life. Notice how he even says he wants her to insult him-not because he likes it, because that's something he can expect, that's something she would do. That's how screwed-up he already is at the moment.

And then he sees Asuka's breasts exposed. And then he masturbates to her, having most likely locked the door for it as well, because instinct has taken over. This is him getting rid of his pent-up sexual frustration with her, this is him using her, this is him doing something so as to assert to himself :"Yes, I really am the lowest of the low"-and this is also him giving in to a natural instinct. He sees a girl's breasts, he gets hard, he gets rid of the hardness. Mind you, all of this is mostly still subconscious, I doubt he really had a lot of knowledge about the reasons for why he did what he did. But I feel all of this makes sense and certainly more than the idea that everything that happened was some sort of an "accident", which, mind you, makes the whole thing only a bit better.

[bladerj]

when the movie was released, sure he is a man after all. We would do it too.
today ? no,its disgusting he took advantage,blah blah...rape....man are evil because dicks...

to me that scene never made sense, because if he did that then,that means he also did it when they were alone ? i think it was just there for shock value and discussion.

[Zusuchan]

bladerj wrote:
when the movie was released, sure he is a man after all. We would do it too.
today ? no,its disgusting he took advantage,blah blah...rape....man are evil because dicks...

I am a 16-year old boy who's done plenty of downright imbecilically impulsive decisions and I would say I would hope to never stoop as low as to directly masturbate over someone's body. I can understand why Shinji did that, considering his psychology and all he'd been through, of course, but I would like to think that nothing that happens to me would make me capable of doing that.

And while societal norms have certainly changed over the years to the point that discussion about the violence (physical, sexual, mental or otherwise) committed towards women has grown, I really doubt that the majority of people in 1997 thought Shinji's masturbation was somehow understandable because he is a "man". The fact that even the oldest discussions on EGF about the hospital scene shows the majority of people condemning Shinji's actions even if they understood how he came to do them, should dissuade from such an opinion.

And quite frankly, it is disgusting what he did. It's not rape per se and men are not inherently evil, certainly not, but it is disgusting. Most people wouldn't do what he did and saying he's a man doesn't act as an excuse. If Asuka would do the same thing, would saying "she's a woman, she has needs" somehow mean her action is now excusable? I don't think so-and so it is for Shinji.

As for your other point-we know Shinji has masturbated to thoughts of Asuka previously, but not directly over her.

[bladerj]

As for your other point-we know Shinji has masturbated to thoughts of Asuka previously, but not directly over her.

i dont remember that, where ? also now that this was brough on......Asuka was on live feed the whole time, so someone saw that shit happening and DIDNT intervene. also i guess its why Misato pulled him by the pulse and not hand lmao.

[Zusuchan]

During one of the train sequences in EoE, Asuka levels her breasts to Shinji's eyes and says: "Why don't you do it again, like you always do? I'll be watching you." This happens after Asuka tells him she knows he's using her for comfort, said over the hospital scene. This and the "always" pretty much outright states Shinji's been masturbating to Asuka for a while.

I don't think Misato knew what Shinji had done, though, she was too busy finding out the truth about Second Impact. There is a chance someone saw what Shinji did and didn't do anything about it, of course! Which is quite creepy.

Edit: Nerv's security didn't intervene while Shinji was getting beaten by Toji, either-it seems they'll only respond once there's a more serious threat. And during the time EoE came around, Nerv had a lot of serious problems so it's entirely possible there was just no one to watch the feed, come to think of it.

[BakaBakaBaka]

Can we actually say that the reason this is included is to show that Shinji has reached rock bottom? I personally think that it's included to emphasise the selfishness behind his motivations. I watched EoE last night, and have been reading the Save the Cat series of books recently. They made me think of the Hospital Scene and the Beach Scene as the Bookends to EOE, the opening image and the final image. If the purpose of the Hospital Scene is to show Shinji has hit rock bottom there are so many ways that you could do it that this one just doesn't make sense. I think they chose masturbating here because it emphasises his selfishness, and the isolation. The locked door shot isn't there to tell us that he locked the door before he did this, or to show premeditation. They could have shown anything they wanted while it was happening, like focusing on Asuka. Focusing on the locked door gives us nothing to focus on but the sounds Shinji is making, which emphasises that it is all about Shinji, while it also emphasises Shinji's isolation. Shinji ejaculates into his hand when there are plenty of things around him in a hospital room for dealing with bodily fluids because having the shot of his ejaculate on his hand keeps the focus on Shinji and emphasises Shinji's personal isolation.

Contrast this with the Beach Scene. Shinji does another terrible thing, strangling Asuka. But strnagling her, as messed up as it is to say this, requires him to connect with her. She reaches up to him and caresses his face. His tears fall on her face. He is no longer alone. There is a whole bunch of stuff here that I am missing, but the point is that I don't think mastubating over a comatosed girl has been included for the pruposes of showing Shinji hitting rock bottom. I am sure Shinji probably considers murdering a friend the point where he hit rock bottom. Masturbating over a commatosed girl has been included so that we as the audience see Shinji negatively. As someone who is selfish. So that when Misato is dragging him through NERV to get him to his EVA we don't see a woman dragging a kid off to die, we see Shinji thinking only about himself and what we wants because we aren't on his side anymore.

WRT the original question, can he be forgiven? Yes, because you can forgive anybody anything. Asuka, in her closing words, acknowledges his behaviour and him as disgusting but does it in a way that shows she has accepted it and leaves it up to us to decide if we want to forgive Shinji. So maybe we should be asking do we feel like forgiving Shinji?

[Lavinius]

I'll forgive him once he forgives me. Until then, he's back to the office with Tokita, the wedding dress, and the mouthful of soy sauce as far as I'm concerned.

[C.T.1290]

I'll forgive him once he forgives me. Until then, he's back to the office with Tokita, the wedding dress, and the mouthful of soy sauce as far as I'm concerned.

That sounds like something Asuka would say.

[Nightwing]

so has it come to this now, we must cancel Shinji?

The first post I read after an 8-year hiatus, can't say I'm disappointed

[LazyPOS]

It's not rape, but it's still a sexual assault. I have infinite sympathy for both of them, but forgiveness is only up to the victim.

I might be an optimist, but I find unrealistic that someone so young, and with personality similar to Shinji's, would do that in that situation, no matter how disturbed he is. It would be realistic but less effective to show him doing nothing but sleeping, eating and faping to loli porn a la "Welcome to the N.H.K" for months while everyone tries to stop the 3rd Impact, but the scene was needed to show how far he's fallen and that his misery is hurting all around him, so I never thought too much about it. I can't imagine how woman or a sex abuse victim would feel about it.

This is why I dislike, although I'm pro Asuka/Shinji, a huge percent of post-3I AsuShin fics. They often get over it like it didn't happen. It's usually done in one conversation, and they start boinking before the end of January.

[Tilikvm]

To me, the more important questions revolve around why this was included in the first place. What is it saying about us, or rather, what can we learn about ourselves when analyzing at it?

This is the real question. I know people have come up with their own explanations as to why it was included, but I still don't really see why it was necessary for Anno to include the scene in the first place. I know that it's supposed to convey Shinji's broken mental state, but maybe it could be conveyed in a way that isn't completely disgusting and sickening? As it is, I wouldn't really mourn the scene's loss if it was cut. It just creates too much of a gross-out moment for first-time viewers, and is probably the main reason why people incorrectly interpret the movie as being a middle-finger to fans.

It's one of the best scenes of Evangelion for me, one of the most provocative towards it's audience.

And it's not only because it shows the 14 years old protagonist masturbating at the comatose body of his friend, but because the scene is intented as a mirror, as something certain viewers have to feel more self-aware of it's message than others. The scene is Anno talking to those waifu obsessed fans, those otakus who are so sickly infatuated with the female characters, and Anno is saying to them: Look at this, this is how you are, this is how utterly pathetic and gross you are.

And that's why that scene it's so brutally important.