The Competence of Nerv [split]

[Stryker]

In fact, the same could be said about Shinji, Rei, hell, EVERYONE in the cast. They ALL have baggage of some kind that prevents them from being effective people, whether in battle, or real life.

Perhaps so in battle, but if my memory serves correctly, what prevents them from being effective in battle is, more often than not, the incompetent commanders and Anno's machinations more than anything else. The only thing I could think of that could be directly the pilots fault was the battle against Shamshel, but even then, you could say that if Misato was far more strict about the training, Shinji would've been able to at least substantially damage Shamshel, and work off from there.

and Kensuke would've gotten a badass video of evangelions in action up on youtube

[Bagheera]

Perhaps so in battle, but if my memory serves correctly, what prevents them from being effective in battle tends to be the incompetent commanders and Anno's machinations more than anything else.

I tend to think it's their personal issues more than anything else, personally. Competent command could work around this, but as fundamental issues go the characters themselves have command beat by a fair margin.

[Stryker]

I can understand how, at an immediate glance, one could propose that the personal issues of the pilots would play a greater role by default.

But remember; the business of NERV, as well as any defence force, is to protect it's people by any means necessary.

What that means for NERV and its Command is that it must be outfitted with the best of anything it could get, be it pilots to Evangelions. If it's pilots have issues that interfere with their ability, then it is not only within NERV's interests, but is (or at least should've been; they managed to save Earth by Kaworu's and Anno's mercy) compulsory that they either find new pilots, or iron out those issues, for if they do not, it may cost them everything they sought out to defend.

The people in charge of facilitating this is command, because, at least in this case, they are well aware of the issues of the pilots, and are effectively the only ones who can accurately make a judgement on this (if we set aside the fact that we are seeing this for ourselves). But even if such wasn't the case, it's still command's job simply for the fact that they're the ones in charge of everything, and are therefore in charge of ensuring the well being of their subordinates.

In short, whatever fault the pilots have for their baggage preventing them from being effective, command has as well, because it's commands job to deal with that. And on top of the fact that they are failing to address the poor status of their pilots, the put on top of them some of the worst battle strategies I have ever seen (where some of them actually worsen the emotional and psychological state of the pilots).

I mean, who the fuck finds out that the angel in question is out of range after they send out a Evangelion, despite the fact that they have the ability to determine that said angel was out of range; they could've easily done the calculations determining the strength of the rifle over range (if they can determine how much power it takes to break through Ramiel's A.T. field, then they can determine how much power it takes to do substantial damage to Arael, and if that weapon has said power), and the distance of the angel (which they can find out; they did it with Sahaquiel). Fucking idiots, that's who.

[Bagheera]

What that means for NERV and its Command is that it must be outfitted with the best of anything it could get, be it pilots to Evangelions. If it's pilots have issues that interfere with their ability, then it is not only within NERV's interests, but is (or at least should've been; they managed to save Earth by Kaworu's and Anno's mercy) compulsory that they either find new pilots, or iron out those issues, for if they do not, it may cost them everything they sought out to defend.

That seems to assume that Nev had options they didn't necessarily have. The entire premise of the show, as I read it, is that they were making due with what they had. What they had was not optimal, but it was the best they could manage at the time.

[Stryker]

That seems to assume that Nev had options they didn't necessarily have.

They have the entirety of Class_2-A. And if none of them were capable, then why didn't they even try to improve the psychological state of the pilots (or if they did, was that really all they got? REALLY)? You would think they would have access to therapists or psychiatrists, considering how the JSSDF were ready to essentially give them whatever they needed (which the pilots most assuredly needed).

[Rosenakahara]

They didn't try because the legit did not care about Asuka outside of how she performed in an eva, they were VERY quick to get rid of her once she had no more use to them, Shinji needed to be broken for the plan to work and i imagine gendo was too protective of Rei to get her help.

[Stryker]

They didn't try because the legit did not care about Asuka outside of how she performed in an eva, they were VERY quick to get rid of her once she had no more use to them, Shinji needed to be broken for the plan to work and i imagine gendo was too protective of Rei to get her help.

For Asuka, that is no excuse at all, for one's ability to pilot the eva is heavily dependent on their psychological status (especially considering synchronization).

For Shinji, do explain; as far as I remember, the plan didn't really need Shinji beyond the point where they had the auto-pilot.

For Rei, that may make sense, considering how Gendo might not want her to rebel against him at the last moment (but, considering EOE, some job he did doing that).

[ElMariachi]

I mean, who the fuck finds out that the angel in question is out of range after they send out a Evangelion, despite the fact that they have the ability to determine that said angel was out of range; they could've easily done the calculations determining the strength of the rifle over range (if they can determine how much power it takes to break through Ramiel's A.T. field, then they can determine how much power it takes to do substantial damage to Arael, and if that weapon has said power), and the distance of the angel (which they can find out; they did it with Sahaquiel). Fucking idiots, that's who.

They knew that Arael was out of range, the plan was to send Asuka with her sniper rifle to get in position and shoot it the moment it comes into range, thus buying enough time for Rei to prepare the Positron canon to kill it.

But as always, the Angel laughed at such silly things as logic, since NERV couldn't imagine that Arael could skullfuck someone with sniper precision without even moving from his relative position at freaking planetary high orbit, meaning completely out of range of Asuka's rifle, and out of effective range from Rei's Positron Rifle.
Rei's shot with the Positron was a desperate shot made with the faint hope that it would at least break the Angel's attack so Asuka can be evacuated, but as they already figured out, it didn't even swayed Arael.

Also something important to take into account is that for NERV's higher-ups (Gendo and Fuyu) Asuka is expandable. Now if you want a moment of really retarded strategy, looks no further than Bardiel: have the numerical superiority, spread the Evas in far away "lines of defenses" so stretched that they can't assist each other if one is in difficulties, that's genius Gendo!

[pwhodges]

And on top of the fact that they are failing to address the poor status of their pilots, the put on top of them some of the worst battle strategies I have ever seen (where some of them actually worsen the emotional and psychological state of the pilots).

Bardiel in NGE is a fine example, stringing the Evas out to be taken down one by one... But they changed that in NTE to make the blame for what happened more solidly Shinji's.

[Rosenakahara]

For Asuka, that is no excuse at all, for one's ability to pilot the eva is heavily dependent on their psychological status (especially considering synchronization).

For Shinji, do explain; as far as I remember, the plan didn't really need Shinji beyond the point where they had the auto-pilot.

Well initially they probably were going to get rid of Shinji after the dummy plug worked and Shinji ran off.........then yui rejecting it happened, and when eva-01 devoured the s2 engine at amazing sync rates i think gendo realized he needed Shinji if yui was going to come to his aid and start 3I, he didn't plan on Rei giving Shinji a choice in the matter nor Shinji rejecting it but part of his plan did require Shinji.

Asuka was considered expendable, i imagine the costs of finding a new pilot all of which were literally sitting in a classroom for nerv to pick out were much cheaper than the cost of getting Asuka help, Asuka never really got a chance to shine and if you ignore the EoE fight (where she showed off what she could ACTUALLY do) she was a pretty average pilot (this was more due to her mind starting to deteriorate or her being in situations where her skills really didnt matter) so they didn't put much stock in her.

[Stryker]

They knew that Arael was out of range, the plan was to send Asuka with her sniper rifle to get in position and shoot it the moment it comes into range, thus buying enough time for Rei to prepare the Positron canon to kill it.

The time it takes to summon an Evangelion is very little (I can't remember the exact countdown, but it took between 15-30 seconds to get an Eva from the bay into the city, which is plenty of time); they had no need to preposition her before it was in range, unless they had feared that it can strike through into where Lilith is being held from Earth's orbit, and even then, it needs to make its way towards it (in which the proper strategy here is to lay a trap at Lilith), unless they thought it had the ability to teleport, and in that case, what the hell was Arael waiting for? Fanfare?

As for Asuka being expendable to high command: She should not be. She is the best trained pilot out of all three, having been trained for the majority of her life. The only reason they managed to survive after Asuka was essentially useless was by Rei blowing her self up when fighting against Armisael and Kaworu being merciful to Shinji by giving him the chance to kill him. The fact that they see her as expendable serves greater testament to their incompetence.

Well initially they probably were going to get rid of Shinji after the dummy plug worked and Shinji ran off.........then yui rejecting it happened, and when eva-01 devoured the s2 engine at amazing sync rates i think gendo realized he needed Shinji if yui was going to come to his aid and start 3I, he didn't plan on Rei giving Shinji a choice in the matter nor Shinji rejecting it but part of his plan did require Shinji.

Is this based on the EOE ending or the TV ending? I see this working for EOE, but not for TV.

Asuka was considered expendable, i imagine the costs of finding a new pilot all of which were literally sitting in a classroom for nerv to pick out were much cheaper than the cost of getting Asuka help

The cost of losing Asuka means all the money spent on her training is wasted (which I imagine is substantial), and to even hope that any of the pilots from Class-2A could even compare to Asuka's ability would be foolish. Shinji, maybe, but not Asuka, and probably not Rei.

[ElMariachi]

But they changed that in NTE to make the blame for what happened more solidly Shinji's.

Off-topic, but I always thought that that change was made to streamline the story and focus more on Shinji's glaring flaw that will be of thematic importance later (his stubbornness when in a tight position making him close himself from everyone else) and to avoid to make Gendo looks incompetent, so it wouldn't be odd when we learn in Q that he held the war against WILLE for 14 years and double-crossed SEELE that was breathing on his neck.

[Bagheera]

Stryker: You seem to be deliberately ignoring the show's premise. No matter what it "should" be, the show is what it is; best to judge it accordingly instead of assuming it's aiming to be something it isn't.

[ElMariachi]

The time it takes to summon an Evangelion is very little (I can't remember the exact countdown, but it took between 15-30 seconds to get an Eva from the bay into the city, which is plenty of time); they had no need to preposition her before it was in range, unless they had feared that it can strike through into where Lilith is being held from Earth's orbit, and even then, it needs to make its way towards it (in which the proper strategy here is to lay a trap at Lilith), unless they thought it had the ability to teleport, and in that case, what the hell was Arael waiting for? Fanfare?

Let me rephrase it better: Asuka was a bait.
She get on the front to draw the Angel attention (because she's expandable and because her EVA-02 is sturdier than EVA-00 due to being a Production Model), so Rei has the time to install and charge the Positron Rifle. The big flaw in their plan was that they didn't expected Areal to have a range that insanely high, and the precision that goes with it.

As for Asuka being expendable to high command: She should not be. She is the best trained pilot out of all three, having been trained for the majority of her life. The only reason they managed to survive after Asuka was essentially useless was by Rei blowing her self up when fighting against Armisael and Kaworu being merciful to Shinji by giving him the chance to kill him. The fact that they see her as expendable serves greater testament to their incompetence.

Gendo don't give a shit, because militarily he is incompetent (that's why Misato is here), as Bardiel showed us, and because if things get really heated, Yui will just get all angry and obliterate the Angel.

[Rosenakahara]

Gendo don't give a shit, because militarily he is incompetent (that's why Misato is here), as Bardiel showed us, and because if things get really heated, Yui will just get all angry and obliterate the Angel.

Bardiel was the scene of gendo's biggest fuckup, he KNEW Shinji would never kill toji yet he tells him to anyway and even acts like it's Shinji's fault when he has to use the dummy plug.
Not to mention his battle tactic was awful, if Rei should be anywhere it should have been the back where Shinji was as she is a more defensive unit and they should have battled bardiel in a more open area and NOT 1V1, they could have had Asuka or Shinji to restrain bardiel and the other to rescue toji, Rei could provide support/extract toji and then Shinji and Asuka could destory the angel.

Bam better battle plan than gendo in less than 5 minutes.

[Stryker]

To judge the show in this context would be to blame Anno for his understanding of battle and military command for why all the mistakes NERV command made, and to use that as a basis of criticism of the show (while I would argue that the show would be better and compelling if he did understand, not to say that it is not). What I am judging is how NERV command dealt with the issue of its broken pilots, and just how poor its battle strategies were in context to its universe.

Neon Genesis Evangelion isn't a bad show because it fails to help its main characters; rather, NERV is a bad organization because it fails to help its pilots.

I'm not ignoring NGE's premise of it being about how NERV Command. . .

were making due with what they had. What they had was not optimal, but it was the best they could manage at the time.

I am criticizing the fact that NERV Command did not make use of what best they had. They had trained military generals at their disposal (JSSDF), they had to have had psychiatrists at their disposal, and they didn't use them. In fact, they squandered their best pilot. SQUANDERED.

Let me rephrase it better: Asuka was a bait.
She get on the front to draw the Angel attention (because she's expandable and because her EVA-02 is sturdier than EVA-00 due to being a Production Model), so Rei has the time to install and charge the Positron Rifle. The big flaw in their plan was that they didn't expected Areal to have a range that insanely high, and the precision that goes with it.

Why the hell would you use Asuka, who, as I keep on saying, is their best pilot, as bait? After seeing what damage prior Angels can do to Evangelions, and considering how expensive and precious Evangelions are, who in their right mind would think using one as bait would be a good strategy? And suppose it is a good strategy: Why not use Rei, who has been demonstrated to be easily replaced (her memory gets wiped, so it is fair to assume that her mental status after being reworked would probably be okay, if you consider Rei's normal situation okay)? The only reason her cover of being a clone was blown was because Ritsuko just showed it to Misato and Shinji.

Gendo don't give a shit, because militarily he is incompetent (that's why Misato is here).

This is what I am trying to say. Except I would argue that, at some points, Misato is also incompetent.

[ElMariachi]

Well, Anno did say in an interview that NERV was a very "amateurish" organization!

[KingXanaduu]

This is what I am trying to say. Except I would argue that, at some points, Misato is also incompetent.

When it comes to psychology in Eva, EVERYONE is incompetent. But, maybe there's a bigger reason behind this.

I don't know about the idea of psychology in Japan, but I think that the problem of being ashamed and admitting your problems is a bit of a social taboo. Not bothering others with your problems and just "dealing with them" is a bit of an accepted standard for the communal society of Japan, instead of an individualist western one. Why else would the concept of "Hikikomori" be considered a staple?

Maybe that's another point Anno was trying to make, as a sort of social commentary of Japan. I remember once Bagherra mentioned how the idea of an Individual's innate worth (mainly Shinji's revelation) is mind-blowing to a society that judges individuals by their worth to society, so maybe that's another deconstruction that Anno is point out.

[Stryker]

When it comes to psychology in Eva, EVERYONE is incompetent. But, maybe there's a bigger reason behind this.

Certainly; the effectiveness of the presentation of the moral that Evangelion gives is highly dependent on this. But if we take the series at face-value, one can easily see just how incompetent NERV is; I would be terrified if my life was at the palm of this organization's hand, just based on NERV's skill at dealing with angels.

[Bagheera]

I am criticizing the fact that NERV Command did not make use of what best they had. They had trained military generals at their disposal (JSSDF), they had to have had psychiatrists at their disposal, and they didn't use them. In fact, they squandered their best pilot. SQUANDERED.

Squandered their best pilot for fighting a very particular (and ultimately irrelevant) sort of Angel. And note that the JSSDf was NOT at Nerv's disposal, and was ultimately an antagonistic organization. You're assuming a great deal, here, none of it warranted by what we're actually shown.

tl:dr: Nerv's goals were not what you seem to think they were. If you rewatch the series with this in mind things will likely make much more sense.