EoE and the DC: Retcon or Not? [split]

[Reichu]

Bagheera: You'll probably have to elaborate upon precisely what definition of "romance" you're using, since I can't recall any Eva movie, let alone EoE, that's "chock full of it".

Ah, but the DC stuff wasn't 'cut out' of the original and later restored. Rather it was all things that were created later (mostly for Death), and added into the episodes later still along with some general animation improvements.

The scene with Fuyutsuki and Yui outside Gehirn WAS actually in the original episode storyboard.

This whole "ZOMG RETCON!" thing seems like a bunch of petty indignation to me. HOW DARE THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE SHOW UNDER STRENUOUS CIRCUMSTANCES RETURN TO IT ONLY SLIGHTLY LATER AND MAKE IT SO THAT IT SUITS MY PERSONAL SENSIBILITIES LESS. If everyone doesn't bend over backward to recognize your preference as EQUALLY VALID, NO, WAIT, MORE SO, BECAUSE FUCK RETCONS, hellfire and brimstone is rained down upon the forum. It gets kind of old after several years.

Yes, you don't like the DC episodes and EoE. I get it. Really, I do. I just don't care, because discussing the main series as some kind of weird dual split-time-stream entity, and forcing caveats upon every relevant conversation for what's zomg retconned or not, is impractical and obnoxious.

[NemZ]

The scene with Fuyutsuki and Yui outside Gehirn WAS actually in the original episode storyboard.

The part where they see each other and then nothing of interest happens? I didn't know that. Were any of the other DC scenes cut or just this one that changes pretty much nothing at all?

Yes, you don't like the DC episodes and EoE. I get it. Really, I do. I just don't care, because discussing the main series as some kind of weird dual entity, and forcing caveats upon every relevant conversation for what's zomg retconned or not, is impractical and obnoxious.

Sorry you find it obnoxious, I guess? When people stop misunderstanding the relationship between the various endings I won't need to remind them. Impractical or not it's still a fact that it was a retcon, and efforts to suppress or subsume the original into the newer is no less obnoxious.

Just give it time and you'll see for yourself. Eventually we'll be arguing with new users that believe Rebuild invalidates and replaces the original series as canon, and concurrency-minded people will be cutting it all up out of context and jamming it into Rebuild in a wildly impractical effort to make it all work together somehow... repurposed dialog, tonal shifts, and different charecters being present from one clip to the next be damned. Oh how we'll laugh then, you and I.

[Bagheera]

NemZ:"Misunderstanding" is a bit of a stretch since Anno's been purposely vague about the matter, and your comparison with the new movies is a wild leap to boot. As I've said before taking the broadcast version of the series on its own is a legitimate stance, but to claim the DC/EoE additions are mixing continuities goes too far. They're expansions, not drastic alterations. It's not the same thing.

Reichu: Addressing romantic relationships. We have, let's see, Gendo and Ritsuko, Ritsuko and Maya, Hyuga and Misato, Misato and Kaji (they're shagging, ffs), Shinji and Asuka (also shagging, sorta), Shinji and Rei (ditto), Fuyu and Yui . . . all of these are addressed directly or referenced at some point. It's not the point of the movie, nor even a main theme, but it's definitely there.

[Jäeger]

There is no romance in EoE. (Except maybe a three-way with Shinji, Rei, and Kaworu, and that’s stretching the definition quite a bit as it is.) There’s only a damaged boy sinking to his lowest point over the top of a broken girl. Then Instrumentality strikes and the children's confusion of both self identity and sexuality come to light with the adults are forced to face their various conflicts. Asuka says that she either wants all of Shinji or none of Shinji, despite the fact that she wants to prove herself with Kaji. Shinji has ill thoughts about the three major females in his life, but still wants to find favor with them just like he does with his father. No one knows what they want in EoE, and everyone is just confused. Why do you think Instrumentality turned out the way it did in then end?

I dont' think Bagheera talks about EoE showing us happy love everywhere, but about romantic relationships, which are present in EOE without doubt. Romantic relationships are more than kisses and happily ever after.

If something states 22' it's Kajis rejection and that Shinji has taken his place in her heart. There is no place left for her infatuation for Kaji in EoE. He IS dead, he has stated Asuka what she meant for him, he has resumed his relationship with Misato. His role was to be a teenage crush ana father/guardian figure. He is not ever mentioned, In EoE Kaji is out of the game. So I don't understand what he has to do with that sequence. His only role during EoE is to fuck Misato. "but also wanted to prove herself with Kaji". That's never said and seen during pre instrumentality, Shinji and Asuka's encounter and confrontation it's only about them, about their relationship . Of course Shinji is confused about the three women in his live, but EOE states clear roles for each one : maternal/Misato, sibling /Rei, sexual, "romantic"/Asuka. Of course, Shinji's confusion and indecision leads to everyone knows to. Of course, he is jus a 14 years old boy.

IMO, Shinji and Asuka were turned into a "couple" by ANno to show us how works a relationship works between two people who share the shame problem but deal with it in opposite ways. The ending is left open about if they'll we be able to heal themselves and get better after such traumatic experience.

But I agree in many things you've said.

And in the AU, she's the childhood friend -- we all know that the childhood friend never wins.

Ehhhh......nein. And I think all of us can give you thousands of anime and manga examples. First of them, the manga which develops that AU.



Or videogames, or tv series, or movies, or literature.....Childhood friend romance is older than life. In fact, in manga and anime being a jealous tsundere gives you a lot of chances. And that is what she is in AU. The more they suffer, the bigger are their chances. If you need romantic comedy examples, like the AU, I can give you as much as you want.

It jibes at least as well as Asuka acting normally in EoTV when she'd been mindraped a week earlier and was last seen after a failed suicide attempt. At least the romance angle has ep 9, the kiss, the "newlyweds" comment, and the rest of their boy/girl conflict throughout the show propping them up. Normal!Asuka in EoTV has absolutely nothing.

Or the rescue secuence in ep 10. I agree that EoE took their relationship to a level never seen in the TV series, but the relationship was there. ANd as you said, the one Anno put by his side in the beach was her. He could have chosen anyone or everybody or leave him alone, but Anno made a choice,a very symbolic choice even in the visuals.

Me, I write it off to Instrumentality, and the fact that a person's core identity has a lot more going for it than a relationship that never went anywhere. And of course, the potential romance is addressed in the AU sequence. Childhood friend my ass, that's rom com 101 right there.

Older than mankind, I should say.

I still cannot urderstand why some people despise the DC o better said,New production cut. It's not disposed material from the original cut because it didn't work. It was made to made things easier to understand and expand the characters portrayal, it doesnt change anything. It was released as fast as they could, to fix what they thought had to be expanded, it was made the canon cut. It's not a 20th anniversary edition with discarded cuts to justify a new purchase

Like or not, but i'ts the final and ultimate cut. And the better example it's ep 22', with it's redrawn footage and sequences made just for that ep (not recycled from Death). Adding material doesn´t change anything to an AU. It reminds me people calling GOS an AU. The fuck, it's just a game, a side story, a gaiden, it just shows us aspects from their lives never shown in the series, like many animes did before. It's not compulsory that anything that doesn´t fit our personal taste it's an AU, even against the will of the creator of the show.

And IMO there won't be discussions about Rebuild in the future. Unless Final shows us a "OMG it's a sequel" ending, Rebuild and NGE are different shows, not different cuts and endings, the same way Batman from "The Dark Night Returns" is not the same from the original series, despite being the same character.

[pwhodges]

we all know that the childhood friend never wins.

Never say never...

Friends I had for dinner two nights ago - knew each other from early childhood, best friends in primary school, dated in secondary school, married in their teens, still together in their 60s.

[Squigsquasher]

Wait, there's debates as to whether the DC stuff (such as the more...horrific take on episode 23) is canon? I was pretty sure it was basically stuff they originally planned to include but couldn't because A: the money was running out, and B: Japanese television wouldn't have showed it. I'm pretty sure none of it even contradicts anything- it just adds to what was already there.

"ZOMG RETCON!!!" kneejerk reactions annoy me. I've always been of the opinion that word of god trumps all else, and if they make a change to the canon, then that is now canon. Same thing with Star Wars- Greedo shoots first. End of. Lucas is the goddamn creator and if he says that he shot first then he shot first.

[Bagheera]

Wait, there's debates as to whether the DC stuff (such as the more...horrific take on episode 23) is canon? I was pretty sure it was basically stuff they originally planned to include but couldn't because A: the money was running out, and B: Japanese television wouldn't have showed it. I'm pretty sure none of it even contradicts anything- it just adds to what was already there.

It was a production issue, not a money issue. Tatsunoko screwed them over doing some of the animation work and it fucked up the schedule something fierce.

And no, there're no real debates as to the canonicity of DC/EoE, as it's clearly additive. The only question is whether or not one chooses to accept the additions. The timeline, and the setting, are the same regardless.

"ZOMG RETCON!!!" kneejerk reactions annoy me. I've always been of the opinion that word of god trumps all else, and if they make a change to the canon, then that is now canon. Same thing with Star Wars- Greedo shoots first. End of. Lucas is the goddamn creator and if he says that he shot first then he shot first.

Not the best example, as that's a clear alteration, not an addition. DC/EoE's additions change our interpretation of what's already there, but they don't directly alter anything that came before. Lucas changed his story after the fact; Anno added to his. It's a change either way, but it's a direct conflict in the first instance vs. a change in interpretation in the second.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Episode 23’ was an alteration, though. In the OA an unaltered Unit 00 is clearly seen blowing up. In the “DC” version, however, Unit 00’s figure wasn’t seen blowing up. Rather, it was GNR’s figure seen blowing up. Yes, things were still added. But this did result in altering previously seen footage ever so slightly. If you were to attempt to remove the added footage in the “DC” version, you would have a version of the episode slightly less complete that the OA version, as you would be removing a handful of frames depicting the fateful explosion itself.

All that being said, it clearly was not a subversion of Rei’s character, such as was there case with Han Solo in IV. Rei still remained the same character, and the fate of her and her Unit were still the same. The only thing that really changed with the added footage was the intensity of the symbolism and the gravity of the situation leading up to the fateful explosion. Han Solo, on the other hand, was laughably bastardized in DC IV.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Nope, nope, nope. Han shot first. Altering that is to alter his character. NOPE.

[NemZ]

They changed significantly more than that, Freaky. You might want to compare them again sometime... preferably side-by side. The wiki has a nice breakdown in the guide's section of each DC episode vs. the original, though sadly the dialogue for each scene isn't filled into the grids yet.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_21_OA_vs._DC
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_22_OA_vs._DC
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_23_OA_vs._DC
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_24_OA_vs._DC

Apparently I need to once again point out that an additive retcon is a thing that exists, in this case because the added material changes how one interprets previously existing scenes and lays the foundation for some completely new things in EoE. Many of the most pivotal scenes in the series are of this variety. Seriously, check out those links.

Just as this relates to Asuka (to bring this back towards the topic... ), without the DC version we wouldn't have:

Asuka trying to show Kaji her tits
Most of the mindrape sequence, including the other side of the wall of jehrico and her true reaction after the kiss
Asuka's "I hate everyone, and me most of all" rant in the bathroom
Her jealousy watching Shinji and Rei talking at the train depot
The kitchen scene where Asuka learns that Kaji is dead
The 'die with me' part of her mom's suicide story

[Bagheera]

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_21_OA_vs._DC
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_22_OA_vs._DC
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_23_OA_vs._DC
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_24_OA_vs._DC

Apparently I need to once again point out that an additive retcon is a thing that exists, in this case because the added material changes how one interprets previously existing scenes and lays the foundation for some completely new things in EoE. Many of the most pivotal scenes in the series are of this variety. Seriously, check out those links.

That's exactly what I addressed above, though. The actual changes are no more significant than those in the KLK on-air vs. BD versions. The additions change our interpretation of other events in the show, but that does not make them a new continuity. It would be like saying the director's cut of a film (any film) takes place in a different continuity than the theatrical version. Most people would call the DC version a more complete story, not an AU or whatever.

IOW different version vs. different continuity.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Eh. Despite the fact that I don't feel the new material to be awkward, with those shots in mind, you could easily talk to two different people who had seen different versions of the episodes and have them give entirely different interpretations. More complete, perhaps, but still a different thing.

[NemZ]

The additions change our interpretation of other events in the show, but that does not make them a new continuity.

...if you jump through hoops to shoehorn concurrency together. If not then you very much do end up with two separate continuities because these two stories with different interpretations actually lead to two very different outcomes both in terms of the larger narrative and in the Shinji/Asuka relationship.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

It does more than change our interpretation of the show. At times it gives us completely different things to interpret by replacing old events with the newer events, such as my example with Episode 23’. There’s no way both events happened in the same continuity, as in the “DC” GNR’s form exploded, while in the OA GNR’s form didn’t even exist, leaving only Unit 00’s form to explode. In that case it’s impossible for both things to be in the same continuity, and as NemZ has shown us in the link, the problem multiples in other moments in other “DC” episodes.

[Bagheera]

It does more than change our interpretation of the show. At times it gives us completely different things to interpret by replacing old events with the newer events, such as my example with Episode 23’. There’s no way both events happened in the same continuity, as in the “DC” GNR’s form exploded, while in the OA GNR’s form didn’t even exist, leaving only Unit 00’s form to explode. In that case it’s impossible for both things to be in the same continuity, and as NemZ has shown us in the link, the problem multiples in other moments in other “DC” episodes.

That's about the only example of a change that directly contradicts something in the show, and it doesn't have a significant impact on the plot. It's not the same as Lucas' changes to ANH. I still don't see any reason to consider 21'-24' a distinct continuity from 21-24. EoTV/EoE arguments can be made, but not Broadcast/DC. IMO nothing in EoTV is at odds with anything we see in 21'-24'.

[Jäeger]

Sorry If I sound harsh but.....this is seriously a debate??? I understand if somebody thinks that Evangelion begins and ends with the broadcast series. It's fine, it's legitimate and whoever thinks that way has his reasons.

But first time in all my life I've heard this logic "because I don`t like what Anno did, it must be an alternate continuity." IMO, there is no misunderstanding : nobody I know has ever thought something like that. Like it or not, accept it or not, you have the right, but it's not gonna make the canonical series an AU just because you don't like it. As I've said, sorry if I sound harsh, but it makes no sense. Not for eva, not for any show. Are the expanded editions of LOTR AU too?? I love Blade Runner. I despise Director's and Final Cut. The we're released 10 and 25 years later. They could be called the best example of milking the cash cow. But what uou'll never heard for me is that, because I don't agree with their nature, they are AU. "OMG, Deckard is a replicant, It must be an AU!!!!"

This whole "ZOMG RETCON!" thing seems like a bunch of petty indignation to me. HOW DARE THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE SHOW UNDER STRENUOUS CIRCUMSTANCES RETURN TO IT ONLY SLIGHTLY LATER AND MAKE IT SO THAT IT SUITS MY PERSONAL SENSIBILITIES LESS. If everyone doesn't bend over backward to recognize your preference as EQUALLY VALID, NO, WAIT, MORE SO, BECAUSE FUCK RETCONS, hellfire and brimstone is rained down upon the forum. It gets kind of old after several years.

Yes, you don't like the DC episodes and EoE. I get it. Really, I do. I just don't care, because discussing the main series as some kind of weird dual split-time-stream entity, and forcing caveats upon every relevant conversation for what's zomg retconned or not, is impractical and obnoxious.

Couldn't agree more. It sounds like "because most people have never thought about alternate continuities and stuff like that, I'm gonna remind them of my theory every time I can until they recognize it as equally valid." And yeah, that's pretty impractical.

P.S.:

Han Solo was the worst possible example . Lucas it's "Word of God" subverted in as many ways as money he wants.

[NemZ]

But first time in all my life I've heard this logic "because I don`t like what Anno did, it must be an alternate continuity."

Er... I don't think anyone is actually saying that. That may be the motivation behind preferring one over the other, but treating them like they're separate divergent timelines doesn't require that at all. It just requires you to notice that things were indeed changed (directly or through addition) leading up to the new ending.

The examples you give, such as the LoTR extended cuts, aren't a great analogy because they were shot as a whole and trimmed back for the theatrical release, which is not the same as if they were released and then PJ shot more scenes (say, if almost every trace of Aragorn/Arwen romance was slapped in after the fact) and added them in later.

Also I actually prefer the voiceover version of Blade Runner. Just gives it more of that pulpy noir texture that the rerelease somewhat lacks, and Ford's tired, apathetic tone somehow just works for that... like Deckard is just too cool (or too emotionally reserved [or a replicant?]) to care about the awesome story he's telling us. Yes, I know I'm a weirdo.

IMO nothing in EoTV is at odds with anything we see in 21'-24'.

You don't think that after building up all that unresolved romantic tension behind Asuka's motives that it doesn't show up at all in EoTV, not even just in Asuka's private sessions, is a good fit?

You don't think that Yui clearly having some sort of plan of her own for instrumentality isn't at odds with her being a complete non-factor in EoTV and not achieving her 'proof we were here' in any way, shape or form, even after the extra floaty screenshots showing in detail how unit01 was grown directly from Lilith for... well, no reason at all, apparently?

You're fine with ramping up the alien-ness of Rei with the miniGNR scene and Kaworu's unexplained 'form of Lillim' comment and just have her be nothing special at all other than the off-screen key to starting instrumentality somehow?

You don't see any issue with just doing nothing at all with Gendo's crazy embryo hand and never remarking again on the implications of the show explicitly pointing out the antarctic also had a geofront?

None of this is a direct contradiction, no, but watching EoTV after 21'-24' is much less satisfying because it renders almost all of the new material just a pile of irrelevant weirdness.

[Reichu]

The examples you give, such as the LoTR extended cuts, aren't a great analogy because they were shot as a whole and trimmed back for the theatrical release, which is not the same as if they were released and then PJ shot more scenes (say, if almost every trace of Aragorn/Arwen romance was slapped in after the fact) and added them in later.

I do seem to recall at least some of the extended cut scenes being filmed long after principal shooting. Actors had to be flown back to New Zealand, Sam wasn't quite as fat anymore, etc.

None of this is a direct contradiction, no, but watching EoTV after 21'-24' is much less satisfying because it renders almost all of the new material just a pile of irrelevant weirdness.

Watching EoTV after OA 21-24 is already unsatisfying because it renders nearly everything that just happened a pile of irrelevant weirdness. (I.e., the TV ending completely drops so many threads anyway, watching it after the DC episodes isn't all that different from watching it after the OA versions.)

[NemZ]

I do seem to recall at least some of the extended cut scenes being filmed long after principal shooting. Actors had to be flown back to New Zealand, Sam wasn't quite as fat anymore, etc.

Still before release though, right? All part of the process. If that happened now though you'd have a case.

Watching EoTV after OA 21-24 is unsatisfying because it renders nearly everything that just happened a pile of irrelevant weirdness.

Somewhat, I'll grant. But moreso with the added things that ALSO get dumped by the wayside.

[Reichu]

Still before release though, right? All part of the process. If that happened now though you'd have a case.

Before release of what? The original theatrical run? That I can't say. I can't seem to quickly look up the information, either, since I'm having tip-of-the-tongue syndrome with whatever those "fly the actors back after the fact" shoots are called.

Somewhat, I'll grant. But moreso with the added things that ALSO get dumped by the wayside.

I doubt that the effect is anything beyond negligible, if nonexistent. Compare someone seeing the show for the first time arriving at EoTV via the OA episodes versus someone doing so through the DC episodes. The show will seem equally stripped down to both, the "what the fuck?" effect the same.