Do you believe the reason for Kaworu freaking out was...

[WunderBah]

....possibly due to how he was physically effected in the process of getting cast down to the 13th Angel? I mean, with this:



....as well as how he clutches his face looking ill:



...leads me into questioning if Kaworu was really more than just disturbed of Gendo having outsmarted him on his plans with pulling the spears (along with the grim effects of what pulling them would lead to), unless i'm looking into this too much. [/img]

[Giji Shinka]

The reason why he went to that state of mind was like you said: Gendo outclassed him. (It seems he's somewhat perfectionist IMO and obsessive of Shinji, so when a guy like him fails, it hits hard)

Plus, imagine a situation where you have gone through all that shit Kaworu has: You have waited for 14 years. Traveled in multiple dimensions, trying to bring you're loved one happiness, but failed every time.

Then you think that you will finally get it right, but then one thing you never thought would happen, happens and TADAA, you go to a shock state similar to Kaworu's.

[CJD]

There's clearly something weird going on with Kaworu there but I'm not sure what it is. I'm not convinced it's just "oh crap I got outsmarted wat do" either. This is something we might have to wait till 4.0 to find out, or never at all maybe.

[Th3Marauder]

1. It's probably both, the fall to the thirteenth, and the fact that he realised Gend outplayed him.

2. Holy hell, am I the only one that doesn't actually think Kaworu is literally in love with Shinji. Kaworu is not a person, he is a shell with the soul of a god inside him. When he says that he loves Shinji, it's an incredibly complex statement, he doesn't actually just love him like you would feel for a romantic lover. Kaworu has blatantly lied and used Shinji multiples times in both NGE and the Rebuilds. He used him as a failsafe in 24 to make sure there was still choice in the matter. He lied to him about the events of Third Impact in 3.33 to get him on his side and against his father. I mean come on, Evangelion isn't really some gay love story, and I mean gay in the literal sense their, obviously.

[unitM]

1. It's probably both, the fall to the thirteenth, and the fact that he realised Gend outplayed him.

2. Holy hell, am I the only one that doesn't actually think Kaworu is literally in love with Shinji. Kaworu is not a person, he is a shell with the soul of a god inside him. When he says that he loves Shinji, it's an incredibly complex statement, he doesn't actually just love him like you would feel for a romantic lover. Kaworu has blatantly lied and used Shinji multiples times in both NGE and the Rebuilds. He used him as a failsafe in 24 to make sure there was still choice in the matter. He lied to him about the events of Third Impact in 3.33 to get him on his side and against his father. I mean come on, Evangelion isn't really some gay love story, and I mean gay in the literal sense their, obviously.

You speak as though certain that Kaworu lied to Shinji. Though it is a possibility, it is not a certainty. We don't know Kaworu's motivations. He has always remained an ominous character. And yeah, I'm really sure Kaworu lied to Shinji in 3.33 to get Shinji against his father, despite the Eva and Lilith being in Gendou's control.

[ElMariachi]

2. Holy hell, am I the only one that doesn't actually think Kaworu is literally in love with Shinji. Kaworu is not a person, he is a shell with the soul of a god inside him. When he says that he loves Shinji, it's an incredibly complex statement, he doesn't actually just love him like you would feel for a romantic lover. Kaworu has blatantly lied and used Shinji multiples times in both NGE and the Rebuilds. He used him as a failsafe in 24 to make sure there was still choice in the matter. He lied to him about the events of Third Impact in 3.33 to get him on his side and against his father. I mean come on, Evangelion isn't really some gay love story, and I mean gay in the literal sense their, obviously.

I'm with you, Kaworu's psyche and morality is too foreign to take his declaration of love to Shinji literally : while I'm sure he really does care deeply for Shinji, he can't feel the kind of romantic feelings humans do, simply because he's not human.
But I don't think he lied to Shinji about his condition as the 17th Angel out of malice, but simply out of "childish" ignorance : he knows almost nothing about the way Lilin feelings works, at most he has a tenuous grasp of it, and acts out of blunt honesty, so when he feels he finds Shinji interesting he told him he loves him, he still try to get close to him because he doesn't realize that it will bring Shinji pain once he reveals that he's an Angel...

In Rebuild Kaworu seems to be far more knowledgeable about Lilin's feelings and how to relate to them, that's why in Q he doesn't said blunt things like "I love you", make the first step toward him by inviting him on a piano session to break the ice, and clearly realizes that telling what happened to Tokyo-3 the past 14 years will hurt him deeply, you can even see Kaworu dropping his smile when Shinji asks him to show him the outside world, and asking if he really want to know.
In short Rebuild!Kaworu is far more human than his NGE counterpart... which is probably also why he seems to be now able to consciously distort his words to subtly manipulate Shinji into following him in his plan with the two spears.
Although it's clear that his objective really is Shinji's happiness and that he resigned himself to lie to him "for his own good", or at least what he perceived would be Shinji's own good. Such characterization would make him a fascinating character if FINAL reveal that this theory was correct, because so far Kaworu didn't even existed as a character, but more as a plot device completely rotating around Shinji. Hell even Rei Q had more character development thanks to her identity crisis and later beginning of her quest to find herself!

[Th3Marauder]

This all comes back to the ages old question of Kaworu on his own. At the end of 2.22 when Kaworu and Mark. 06 skewer Unit-01 and end Near Third Impact, Kaworu seems rather... stern, if you will. Not like himself at. And then in 3.33, there's that one god damn shot before he convinces Shinji to pilot Eva 13 where he's sitting alone at the piano, smiling to himself, his eyes in shadow. What the hells up with that? I maintain that Kaworu is a liar, and why yes he does care for Shinji, he does use him a whole lot.

[ElMariachi]

^
And in that my friend, we totally agree!

He obviously does genuinely care for Shinji and only has his happiness at heart, and he's ready to lie and do things that Shinji would disapprove to attain this goal.
Following this interpretation, Kaworu is very similar to Homura Akemi from PMMM(and I'm not talking about the time manipulation powers), especially from the latest movie.

[wiser3754]

Kaworu is freaking out because not only had he unmasked Gendo's plan he's aware that as Shinji gets closer to the Spears he himself is about to be unmasked. Hence why he's hiding his face in his hand, he's trying to keep his mask on.
Wouldn't you think when someone asks who you are it'd be pertinent to explain what you are as well, besides just being a "child bound by fate"?

[ElMariachi]

He probably didn't mentioned that he was an Angel in their first meeting to not make Shinji freaking out, I mean the last Angel Shinji met ate his half-sister/love interest!
But I'm sure that Shinji already connected the dot, or at least was aware that Kaworu wasn't completely human, walking without protection in an toxic environment or deactivating a secured bomb collar with a simple touch is bound to rise some suspicions!
But Shinji probably don't give a shit about it, I he got close to a girl with blue hair and red eyes without caring at all for her strange aspect, so an albino with red eyes and some strange powers isn't something that would stop Shinji from knowing him better, especially since he's pretty much the only person with whom he can speak, seeing how unresponsive Rei Q is!
Or maybe Shinji simply didn't had time to ponder the clues around him, after all just after seeing Kaworu waltz in the toxic environment around neo-NERV HQ, he learned that Tokyo-3 and maybe the world was destroyed and that apparently it's his fault, and when Kaworu magically removed the DSS Choker, Shinji was in the middle of a massive mental breakdown.

Still, when Kaworu mentioned that he fell from First Angel to 13th, Shinji didn't didn't reacted as surprised, as if it was just a confirmation of his suspicions. Or maybe he was too busy freaking out to the madness around him to absorbs what Kaworu said.


I don't get what you mean with that "mask" Kaworu was trying to hold, he was freaking out because he realized that he was manipulated, no need to to hide that from Shinji.

[Warren Peace]

KAWORU: Baka, this is all your fault! You said the spears would be here!

HAND ADAM: Don't blame me, my brain's the size of a walnut!

KAWORU: I can turn this collar into a wristband, you know...

HAND ADAM: Do I get to touch Rei's boobie again this time?

[ElMariachi]

^
KAWORU : "Rei" just exploded into red goo when the spears were removed, you walnut-sized brained dumbass!

[airman4]

Brought down the font size. Simple bolding will do, no need to make it 24 size - Ursus.

The reason why he went to that state of mind was like you said: Gendo outclassed him. (It seems he's somewhat perfectionist IMO and obsessive of Shinji, so when a guy like him fails, it hits hard)

Plus, imagine a situation where you have gone through all that shit Kaworu has: You have waited for 14 years. Traveled in multiple dimensions, trying to bring you're loved one happiness, but failed every time.

Then you think that you will finally get it right, but then one thing you never thought would happen, happens and TADAA, you go to a shock state similar to Kaworu's.

wat...

[Kendrix]

It's possible, but by no means necessary as an explanation.

Here has waited long for his chance to finally meet the person he was so interested in, and they're just as fascinating as he expected. But while e hoped he'd be able to "bring him happiness" and that they would have a lot of happy time togther, the truth is that Kaworu's actions are a drop of water on a hot stone compared to everything else that's going on in Shinji's life right now.

The person he waited so long to meet is pretty much falling appart on him, and he can't do anything about it... so he was, perhaps, a bit hasty to provide a solution, and he knows that Shinji has staked all he is on this promise.

....and he realizes that they've had. Gloriously.
There is no solution, there's a trap that he knows is tailored to the two of them, their personalities and shortcommings. He can probably already imagine how Shinji will walk right into it.

From Kaworu's perspective, he's just navigated the only person who ever treated him with anything other than fear and contempt right into the lion's den.
Oh, Shinji told him it was a bad idea, he told him he didn't trust the EVAs or anyone around him, but no, Kaworu didn't listen and staged a fancy display to convince him to come....

Both boys' experiences are probably rather symmetrical, just a little bit out of temporal sync...


You might as well ask why Shinji didn't reply anything to Asuka or Mari.

I don' think Kaworu knew just what touching the indentical spears would do, if he did, he'd tell Shinji - an incoming impact would probably dissuade him rather fast. Rather, I think he was especially freaked out by the fact that he really didn't know (but knew anough about SEELE to guess this can't be a good thing); His stage mirrors that of the experienced long-term geeks in the audience who used to get the machnics once upon a time before Q melted it all into crazyness.

[AuraTwilight]

It kind of baffles me when people say Kaworu is using Shinji, or doubt that his love for him is his main motivating factor, or that he lied about it.

You know, considering that he stated his motivation of being bringing only Shinji, himself, happiness.

When no one could hear him except the audience.

You guys? Come on.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I'm not on board that NME Kaworu's a time-hopper (unless Final reveals something), but I was also under the impression that Kaworu's reaction is a combination of shock at being outsmarted and a physical response to being "cast down".

I honestly think if it was only shock, he wouldn't react so strongly. There's gotta be something going on physically with being cast down from the 1st Angel to the 13th.

When no one could hear him except the audience.

The audience also only hears him here. Even if NME Kaworu's intentions are innocent (but remember, unlike NGE, we don't get an indication he's against Seele), I think the way he's going about things is completely wrong: Kaworu's ignoring Shinji's actual wants/needs in favor of giving Shinji what he thinks Shinji wants/needs, whether that happiness involves Instrumentality/an Impact or not.

[ElMariachi]

It kind of baffles me when people say Kaworu is using Shinji, or doubt that his love for him is his main motivating factor, or that he lied about it.

You know, considering that he stated his motivation of being bringing only Shinji, himself, happiness.

When no one could hear him except the audience.

You guys? Come on.

Nobody put in doubt that Kaworu genuinely wants Shinji's happiness(as you said he even states that when no one else can hear him, unless he's doing some 4th wall breaking), what is doubted is the honesty of his methods : seeing how his explanations of what happened with Third Impact contradicts what we saw in 2.0 and later in Lilith's Chamber, it's very possible that Kaworu resigned himself to lie to Shinji(or at least to twist the truth) to convince him to pilot with him EVA-13 to search the spears, in short a white lie for Shinji's own good.(or at least what Kaworu perceived would be Shinji's own good)

[Warren Peace]

In NGE, Kaworu also says that death is the only absolute freedom(/liberty). He may have a similarly... creative definition of "happy".

[AuraTwilight]

I think the way he's going about things is completely wrong: Kaworu's ignoring Shinji's actual wants/needs in favor of giving Shinji what he thinks Shinji wants/needs, whether that happiness involves Instrumentality/an Impact or not.

A fair point; I don't disagree. That's different from some people in the thread implying he didn't care about Shinji or was emotionally manipulating him for some other purpose.

In NGE, Kaworu also says that death is the only absolute freedom(/liberty). He may have a similarly... creative definition of "happy".

This is sort of dishonest because it's ignoring the context that Kaworu at the time was an entity that had a biological imperative he couldn't ignore or defy except through being killed.

And that, y'know, he was raised by the Evil Monolith Suicide Cult.

[Warren Peace]

This is sort of dishonest because it's ignoring the context that Kaworu at the time was an entity that had a biological imperative he couldn't ignore or defy except through being killed.

And that, y'know, he was raised by the Evil Monolith Suicide Cult.

I'm not sure what that particular context has to do with anything. The death line is about his character more than that specific event. If you define "freedom" as being "without constraints", then yeah, death is freedom. Even so, it's not the definition that would occur to most people. Same thing in Rebuild, perhaps. When it comes to Kaworu, you can't take words at face value.