Why was Shinji never trained as a pilot?

[ElMariachi]

That's something that always bugged me : although I'm aware that having Shinji be a (somewhat) regular teenager thrown into a war that didn't concerned him against Eldrich Abominations is a central part to Evangelion's plot, I still don't see the logic behind it :

Yui's soul is inside EVA-01, which is(in NGE at least) the sine qua none condition to have a working EVA and a possible synchronization with the pilot related to the soul.
It's heavily implied that the reason Asuka has been chosen as the pilot for EVA-02 was because her mother's soul(well, a part of it) has been absorbed by it.

So the big question is : why the hell wasn't Shinji trained as a pilot under NERV's custody like Asuka was?!

Per se, Shinji isn't really needed to pilot EVA-01, as Rei was its pilot(for being a clone of Yui or because she had Lilith's soul and Unit-01 was made from Lilith), and EVA-00 seems to be notoriously buggy, and the fact it was used on battle wasn't planned(hell, in its first actual sortie against Ramiel it was completely unequipped, it didn't even ad the fins!)

But even then, the decision to don't train Shinji doesn't make any sense : we have the unique case where an EVA(01) can be piloted by two different persons, so on a pragmatic point of view, the best thing would be to train them both to pilot, so that if by any chance Rei is unable to pilot, because she's ill, or has been badly injured in a lab accident and an Angel decides to show up, they don't have to call Shinji on urgency and put him totally untrained in the EVA and pray every divinity they know that everything will be alright... which is exactly what happened!

Even if it was because Gendo didn't wanted his son anywhere nears him, I doubt SEELE would have accepted that a potential spare pilot would be lay to waste just because Gendo had emotional issues with him! How many near-catastrophes would have been avoided had Shinji been trained and prepared to pilot and fight in an EVA(I'm looking to you, Shamshel!)

[The Killer of Heroes]

My assumption always was that Gendo WAS intending on having Shinji trained by sending the letter to him prior to Episode 1, but then Sachiel* attacked unexpectedly soon and screwed things up.

*Personally, I think it's fitting that The Third Angel and the Third Child both arrived in Tokyo III on the same day.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Gendo seemed to have been wanting to avoid using Shinji, for whatever reason. This was probably why Rei was chosen first instead of Shinji, and why the Dummy Plug was being developed at the time. Gendo himself says that he only called upon Shinji because he needed him. Even when Gendo does try to initiate his Third Impact plan in EoE, Shinji is strangely absent from his equation.

So the real question is "Why was Gendo trying to keep Shinji out of the equation?" The answer to that might come from Gendo's relationship with Rei. If you think about it, Shinji always seemed to be the third wheel in that relationship. Looking back, Rei actually could have beent he main pilot of Unit 01 and Gendo's plan would have been more successful for it. (It was Rei III's attachment to Shinji that lead her astray from Gendo's chosen path in EoE.)

In fact, the only reason why Shinji was kept on as Pilot after Rei II's recovery was because "Mama said so." (Through Sync Ratio tests, I believe.) Yui wanted to have Shinji see humanity's bright and shining future, and damnit, that's exactly what she's gonna do!

In short, Shinji wasn't trained to Pilot Unit 01 because he would have ruined everything in Gendo's plan. (Which is actually what happened in the end.)

[sephiros]

To me, it seemed like it was part of his master plan. There are several times where he says something like, "it's all according to plan," so it would make sense if he threw Shinji into battle with no experience in an attempt to get a certain reaction from him and Unit 01.

[Dream]

I think another reason for Gendo keeping Shinji away was his desire or intention to protect him or keep him away from all the NERV madness. At first i thought the summon letter was because he realized, for whatever reason, that he inevitably needed Shinji for the best possible conclusion of NGE's events (probably because Yui willed it so) and was likely pretty torn about it until the dead sea scroll's prediction (Sachiel's arrival) forced him to take action.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

To me, it seemed like it was part of his master plan. There are several times where he says something like, "it's all according to plan," so it would make sense if he threw Shinji into battle with no experience in an attempt to get a certain reaction from him and Unit 01.

I don't think Gendo was reacting to the events happening to Shinji when he said "according to plan" throughout the series, but rather simply the things happening to Unit 01. For example, Unit 01 eats the S2 Engine, and Gendo's pleased. But when Shinji's absorbed into Unit 01, well... I don't remember seeing Gendo concerned about that.

I think another reason for Gendo keeping Shinji away was his desire or intention to protect him or keep him away from all the NERV madness. At first i thought the summon letter was because he realized, for whatever reason, that he inevitably needed Shinji for the best possible conclusion of NGE's events (probably because Yui willed it so) and was likely pretty torn about it until the dead sea scroll's prediction (Sachiel's arrival) forced him to take action.

I was gonna say something like that, but I don't remember Gendo expressing concern like that in NGE. (In fact, NERV was more willing to blast Shinji into oblivion in Episode 16. The only reason they wanted Shinji back in Episode 20 seemed to be because Unit 01 was rejecting Dummy Plugs.)

The only time I remember that happening is in the NME series when he remembers Yui telling him to take care of Shinji.

[ElMariachi]

That Gendo initially didn't wanted Shinji involved is pretty clear, whether because he wanted to protect him or didn't wanted an unstable element in his Master Plantm.
But what I was wondering is why SEELE was OK with it too : the Marduk Institute is under SEELE's direct control, so they knew about Shinji's existence and status as a potential pilot, so why didn't they made NERV recruited him to form him as a spare pilot for cases of emergencies?!
They have gone as far as creating an Evangelion from Lilith as a backup plan for the very unlikely case that Lilith's body was unavailable, so why did they let pass the opportunity to train a secondary pilot all ready and compatible, especially when pilots are often used as guinea pigs in potentially lethal lab experiments involving weaponized clones of a god!

And while we are on it, what was Gendo's plans with EVA-01, besides protecting it because it had Yui's soul inside? Why was he happy that Unit-01 absorbed the S² Engine, like Freaky said?

Is it because SEELE wanted it safeguarded because it was the backup in case that things go awry with Lilith's corpse, and the fact it had a S² Engine and is now a "true" Evangelion/God, they won't be that eager to use it if Gendo hijack the Plan and keep Lilith for his own use?

[Dream]

I was gonna say something like that, but I don't remember Gendo expressing concern like that in NGE. (In fact, NERV was more willing to blast Shinji into oblivion in Episode 16. The only reason they wanted Shinji back in Episode 20 seemed to be because Unit 01 was rejecting Dummy Plugs.).

I don't recall Kendrix's full argument (which is where i got the "Gendo didn't want to involve Shinji" idea from) But i remember she mentioned the fact he nevers tries to emotionally manipulate Shinji into staying as a pilot when there's no way he doesn't know a few words from him would make the kid do what he wants (at least at the beggining) and he generally gives Shinji the freedom to do what he desires with his life (an example of this occurs in episode 4, where he seems unconcerned with Shinji's decision to leave even when the Second Children hasn't arrived yet and Rei's not exactly in top condition), these instances combined with his final lines in Komm Susser Todd leave it pretty unambiguous for me that he was concerned about Shinji.

Regarding Episode 16 (Episode 10 could also apply) it is true that NERV was willing to let Shinji die, but it doesn't necessarily means Gendo wasn't concerned, they are after all in a war and sometimes an organization needs to do horrible things because the other options are worse. Also, while it's true that Gendo doesn't express much concern or emotion to anyone who isn't Yui, it's probably worthy of mention that we both tend to see him from the lens of people who have a strong emotional bias towards him (Shinji, Fuyutsuki, and maybe others) and the times we do see him, it's in contexts where human warmth or openess aren't really a possibility ("Commander Ikari"). He could have easily been crying his eyes out in Episode 16 or 10 when no one (or just Fuyutsuki) was watching, it's true that he isn't very nice to Shinji and that the way he's never involved in his child's life is rather shitty, but i personally i don't believe that could lead to conclude he isn't concerned.

EDIT: @Mariachi: I don't recall any point in the series where they state that Marduk (a false/unreal entity anyways) was under SEELE's direct control. I'm also not very sure of how much direct power SEELE possesed over NERV or Gendo, at least from the beggining of the series up until the descent arc or so.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Well, I'm not saying Gendo having those emotions isn't entirely unlikely, but I really can't include them as part of Gendo's emotional make-up because the TV series doesn't suggest Gendo having too much concern for Shinji until his last scene in EoE. And even then he's apologizing to Yui in that scene, and not to Shinji. To me this suggests he was a bit more concerned about what his wife was thinking than the well-being of his son.

[TheFriskyIan]

Well, I'm not saying Gendo having those emotions isn't entirely unlikely, but I really can't include them as part of Gendo's emotional make-up because the TV series doesn't suggest Gendo having too much concern for Shinji until his last scene in EoE. And even then he's apologizing to Yui in that scene, and not to Shinji. To me this suggests he was a bit more concerned about what his wife was thinking than the well-being of his son.

Didn't Gendo ask Shinji for forgiveness right before he gets "eaten" by Unit 01?

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Was, that Shinji? I thought that was Yui. I'll jave to watch it again. (I just finished watching the TV series with some friends of mine, and we're going into D&R and EoE tomorrow night.)

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

But what I was wondering is why SEELE was OK with it too : the Marduk Institute is under SEELE's direct control, so they knew about Shinji's existence and status as a potential pilot, so why didn't they made NERV recruited him to form him as a spare pilot for cases of emergencies?!

Recall that the Maraduk institute is a sham. Gendo essentially has his pick of pilots from Class 2A at will.

I think another reason for Gendo keeping Shinji away was his desire or intention to protect him or keep him away from all the NERV madness.

This may be closer to the truth, but perhaps we could replace NERV with Seele and Chairman Keel.

By keeping Shinji away from Tokyo-3, Gendo may also have been trying to allay any suspicions on Seele's part. If Shinji has been hanging around Tokyo-3, or worse actually training alongside Rei, Seele might have become very suspicious about the cozy trio of Ikari's as Pilot, Evangelion, and Nerv commander. Suspicious enough to begin questioning Gendo's motives perhaps.

As FreakyFilmFan4ever and Dream also mentioned, Shinji does not seem to be in any way an essential part of Gendo's plans. His original intention appears to have been to use Rei throughout, with Shinji as a backup. Or perhaps, he _did_ mean to use Shinji from the beginning, but changed his mind after abandoning Shinji at a young age. In any case, I think it's clear that Shinji is only summoned by Gendo out of necessity, and retained as a matter of expedience. Gendo is, in general, uninterested in keeping Shinji permanently in position, the Bardiel fight being seemingly the one and only time Gendo tries to bring Shinji on board, if he even tries here.

Didn't Gendo ask Shinji for forgiveness right before he gets "eaten" by Unit 01?

I think that's the thrust of Gendo's word, but I think they mean "sorry" as well. It appears to have been a statement of contrition in any case.

But further discussion of Gendo's fate in EoE will have to be taken to the appropriate thread. (How exciting!)

[ElMariachi]

Recall that the Maraduk institute is a sham. Gendo essentially has his pick of pilots from Class 2A at will.

Yes, the Marduk Institute is just a shell company to hide the fact NERV already had a batch of potential pilots in class 2-A, but seeing as it's SEELE who control the creation of new EVAs(after all , they launched the production of the MP-EVAs without Gendo able to say anything about it) I really doubt that they don't have an eye and a says of who is chosen as a pilot.

Also, they must be aware of the mother-child connection necessary to pilot an EVA, that's kinda a extremely important detail, so how is it that they never tough "hey, Gendo's wife's soul is inside EVA-01, and they had a child before her absorption right? So why don't we take him and train him to be a pilot, in a separate NERV branch so that Gendo won't be able to make him a loyal little soldier, besides he don't want to have anything to do with him!"

[Kendrix]

That Gendo initially didn't wanted Shinji involved is pretty clear, whether because he wanted to protect him or didn't wanted an unstable element in his Master Plantm.
But what I was wondering is why SEELE was OK with it too : the Marduk Institute is under SEELE's direct control, so they knew about Shinji's existence and status as a potential pilot, so why didn't they made NERV recruited him to form him as a spare pilot for cases of emergencies?!

THIS.

Because Gendo never planned to involve him (he was gonna use Rei to pilot unit one) and didn't want to force his own son to fight in a cyborg/ use him for a plan that wasn't very nice - Whoever was nominated as the "long awaited Third Child", Gendo had a sucky fate planned out for them, and once Shinji sets foot in the entry plug, there's no changing the plan...

Episode 20 shows Young!Gendo very concerned about his son being unable to have a normal life is the harshness of the post-SI world...

The thing with Gendo is, while he is very much willing to do just about anything if he feels that it is "The only way" (to quote EoTV - Also, he's willing to apply the same cold logic to himself, going as far as whoring himself out to an irritable woman old enough to be his mother to keep her under control, or to subject himself to some serious body horror.), but that doesn't mean he likes ruining other peoples lives, or that he won't avoid it if he doesn't consider it totally necessary - For example, he was very much willing to send Rei to her death against Sachiel, because there are no other pilots available - but he went as far as going near Shinji and facing him to make sure there really is no other option.


As for SEELE, Gendo has good reasons to keep THEM away from Shinji, too, and may very well have had the connections to move him beyond their reach - the Sensei dude seemes to have some vague idea of what NERV was doing - If not to make sure his kid doesn't bececome the plaything of fanatist madmen (the irony probavbly went past him) then because he does not want his enemies being able to influence a valuable chess piece.

Also, doesn't the Classified Information state that SEELE views Shinji being Unit 01s as extremely dangerous? This could be for reasons related to some special features of Shinji that would make ep 19/ the FoL aquisition possible, or just simply because this puts someone that Gendo can easily manipulate
They probably wouldn't have allowed it AT ALL if not for the fact that no other pilots were available at first, and that Shinji then proceeded to produce nigh miraculous results...



Essentially, Yui manipulated both Gendo and SEELE into using Shinji, it was pretty clear that she planned this - maybe she thought it was a privilege for him to be the "chosen one", maybe she thought of it as sacrificing her own child so no other mother has to force this on their children, (or sacrificing HERSELF to her creation, to take responsibility for creating a soul eating monster) or she knew that it would be him even before she enteres EVA 01 because of prophecy majixx haxx.

Was, that Shinji? I thought that was Yui. I'll jave to watch it again. (I just finished watching the TV series with some friends of mine, and we're going into D&R and EoE tomorrow night.)

He explicitly says "Forgive me, Shinji." There's no need to directly adress someone who's not even present, and if he was trying to put up a show for Yui, he's apologize to HER - but it's very typical behavior in people whacked by massive guilt.




It is telling that we never actually SEE Gendo in episode 16, we just heard the decision he made - and what choice did he have? From all the talk we hear in various episodes, an Angel merging/ivading EVAs, especially unit 01, is dangerous (perhaps for reasons comparable to those in Rebuild - either way, what Armisael was doing with Unit Zero there did NOT look harmless and Ritsuko says that separating the Angel from EVA 01 is the top priority ), and they HAD to defeat Leliel because she might just have gone and started TI as soon as her test specimen expired, and so far, it looked like Leliel can just... appear in places.


Why? Because, if we had, that probably would have been a mayor internal spoiler for the final revelation. Maybe we'd have seen him agonizing over it, hitting a wall in frustration or something.


Rebuild is another story, since it seems they planned using Shinji all along, but why not give him as much of a normal life as possible (with Gendo's limited umderstanding of "normal life") before screwing him over?
I'll withold further speculations before I've seen : || because it seems like there are mayor things we don't know about the pilots and Shinji in particular...

[K40s]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the Marduk institute was a charade for Nerv (Gendo) to wash their hands in front of Seele and take no responsibility for the pilot selection, it seemed that Seele wouldn't approve to have Gendo's own son as pilot, I even remember such a scene with Seele talking about it, just can't pinpoint it, maybe Seele didn't know about the mother-son relationship? or is not a requirement rather than a convenience that the mother is more likely to accept her own son as pilot than someone else.

Although how did Seele get Kaworu selected as the 5th Child?

[Reichu]

Kiel's name was on the Marduk Institute list, FYI.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Kiel's name was on the Marduk Institute list, FYI.

Wasn't it determined in the Descent arc that the Marduk institute didn't actually exist?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Wasn't it determined in the Descent arc that the Marduk institute didn't actually exist?

The 108 Marduk companies were all just shell companies. Gendo, Keel, and Fuyutsuki are probably on all the boards because... well... maybe they're trying to get on the Guinness board or something?

[Kendrix]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the Marduk institute was a charade for Nerv (Gendo) to wash their hands in front of Seele and take no responsibility for the pilot selection, it seemed that Seele wouldn't approve to have Gendo's own son as pilot, I even remember such a scene with Seele talking about it, just can't pinpoint it, maybe Seele didn't know about the mother-son relationship?

It was episode 2.
There's no way SEELE didn't know about such a huge deciding factor in the mechanics, they're the one handing the information out. The charade wasn't put up for SEELE, but for the public eye and the other NERV employees, because they obviously can't go and say, "We pick this girl over here because we harvested her mom's living soul.".

or is not a requirement rather than a convenience that the mother is more likely to accept her own son as pilot than someone else.

This is implied. Shinji could somewhat move UNIT 02 and would have been able to pilot unit 00 aswell if something inside it hadn't disagreed with him, and Rei talks like she could get into unit two at any time.
Having the actual parent in the EVA most likely just gives it a higher chance to work/higher synch ratio.

Although how did Seele get Kaworu selected as the 5th Child?

They did not get him selected, they just sent him, with no further explanation. That's why everybody got instantly suspicious. They're the bosses of the lot, they can just circumvent the formalities.

[K40s]

They did not get him selected, they just sent him, with no further explanation. That's why everybody got instantly suspicious. They're the bosses of the lot, they can just circumvent the formalities.

This is were my memory gets a little sketchy, at that point Seele didn't even bother making it look like the Marduk Institute selected Kaworu as the 5th?? they just went and said: "This is the 5th, because Seele says so, period."