Transformers: We Deserve Better Than Michael Bay

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:05 pm

It's cool to hate on Bay and those Star Wars videos made everybody an expert in the nuance of film.
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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:32 pm

I actually have some experience with the art of Filmmaking, although personally I prefer watching, studying, and talking about movies to making them. I can tell you, from a screenwriting perspective, the majority of bays films are just terrible. There's probably only one Bay film I actually unashamedly like, and that's only because I'm a big fan of Bruce Willis and Aerosmith.

Bay's skills lie in the direction of cinematography, but he can't direct good humor or compelling drama to save his life.

I'm not asking for Optimus and Megatron to be discussing philosophy or the semantics of good and evil (although that would be awesome) all I'm asking is that they develop as characters and be interesting and compelling, and not overglorified plot devices and/or sidekicks.

@Sguigsquasher
Why should I care about Ratchet? I barely remember him from the last three movies. What did he do that bears remembering aside from being a dumbass joke about pheromones in the first movie? Did he save anyones life? Does he have actual character? Whats his history? We don't know that because we are never given enough time with the transformers.

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Sarcasm is not appreciated.

I don't hate Bay. I do hate the sheep of the American (and Chinese) moviegoing audience who consistently shell out money to see his movies when there are literally dozens of much better movies out there. When you see a man eating junk food to the point where it affects his health you start to grow concerned! Its the same thing with American audiences and this terrible franchise! Good food and junk food are expensive and cheap respectively. But A good movie and a bad movie cost exactly the same!

Think for yourselves! Stop being Sheep! Ask yourself, what does this movie say about me? What does it have to offer me? Will it make me think? Will it improve my life? Will it make me a better person? Does it make me feel pity, or sadness, or genuine empathy for the main character? But of course, most audiences can't bother with Empathy can they?

= = =
Also, is noone concerned that Bay. The self proclaimed symbol of American Cinema is pandering to Communist Chinese audiences?
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Postby Squigsquasher » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:47 pm

I think I lost a few brain cells reading that. Seriously, dafuq?
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:57 pm

Ray, you need to get over yourself and relax. People don't see movies because they're quality entertainment; they can't, because the vast majority of movies out there are terrible. Even the "good" ones are sterling examples of mediocrity in most cases. Take, say, Edge of Tomorrow: great reviews, sure, but people wonder why it isn't more popular. And the reason is simple: it isn't very good. Its sole redeeming feature is the fact that its female lead isn't lame, and that's not much to hang a movie on. Now, All You Need Is Kill? The story EoT was based upon? That was a decent story. The aliens and their time travel make sense there, and the story truly feels global (rather than "oh noes, Europe's wrecked, guess the Murricans will have to save the world!" that we got in EoT). But EoT was superficial and boring, and it didn't have the guts to do anything interesting with its material. And that's the best we get.

And people know this. They aren't stupid: they know that Hollywood doesn't have to balls to take chances or create art by design, and they know that any clever symbolism they get in their movies is either accidental or the work of subversive directors. When a movie like that comes along they see it and count themselves lucky, but they don't rely on such things for their entertainment. That's just the way the economics works out. But that's okay; people don't (usually) watch movies to be enlightened, they watch movies to be distracted. That's it. All they want is a way to kill some time on their weekends, and most directors don't have the chops to be clever and entertaining at the same time. So people settle for entertaining, because the alternative feels too much like work.

So, chill out. People see movies for different reasons, and that's okay. Just be happy when decent movies get the credit they deserve, and don't dwell on those who receive (IYO) undeserved success. It's entertainment, man.
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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:19 pm

@ Squigsquasher @Bagheera

Can't win fights with cinematic junk food addicts. . . I can rail about how bad a movie is. But at the end of the day, even if I deconstructed why its terrible down to the basic level people would still go see it. :irked:

I can't stop people from indulging in brainless movies like Bayformers. All I can say is 'don't go see it' and hope someone, even just one person goes against the tide and chooses a Better more thought provoking movie over the over glorified commercial.

Who says an entertaining blockbuster can't be thought provoking? Go see the new Planet of the Apes movie. You get just as much spectacle and effects as T4, in addition to great acting, character development, actual compelling drama, and an underlying theme of existentialist philosophy.

Like I said, most audiences and filmmakers can't bother with Empathy. It's all about making money these days so noone is willing to take creative risks that may or may not pay off. So people like me who demand quality are left wanting.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:41 pm

Watch yourself there, Ray. You're making a lot of assumptions there that aren't warranted.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:35 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Also, is noone concerned that Bay. The self proclaimed symbol of American Cinema is pandering to Communist Chinese audiences?


Well, I would like to just question when Bay proclaimed himself to be a 'symbol of American Cinema' and how the bad quality of his cinematography is in any way related to the appeal of his movies in China (and, subsequently, if the bad quality of said cinematography is in any way related to China's Communist political ideology).
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Because I think you're so good
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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:59 pm

There's this bonus feature on the DVD of the first Transformers movie. He said something to this effect.

"The US military backs my movies because I make them look GOOD"


In the first three movies, the US military is more efficient in Taking down the Cons than the Autobots. But in T4, the US military are the bad guys who betrayed the Autobots, and the Peoples Republics Army are the ones who are competent in taking down the Cons.

So . . . yeah. It's bad enough the first three were more or less shallow US military propaganda Porn with Giant Robots. But now its shallow COMMUNIST Military Propaganda Porn with Giant Robots.

Feel free to enjoy a movie that glorifies the same people who who enslave, brainwash and bully their own populace. Threaten to invade Hong Kong for holding an election, drive Tibetans to suicide by immolation, and harvest organs from innocent Falun Gong who speak out in protest!

Its impossible to enjoy a product that hasn't been touched or made in china. But I can at least avoid a movie that actively glorifies a murderous regime.
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I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby Squigsquasher » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:02 pm

...So because the main villains are a corrupt megacorp bent on exterminating and enslaving the Transformers, and because the Chinese are portrayed positively and not as "hurr commie pinkos durr" it's somehow communist propaganda?

Dude, that's...kinda offensive.
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Postby Ænimal » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:17 pm

Here's a pretty good article relevant to the topic at hand

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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:34 pm

Thanks man.

Chinese Government and Military. NOT the Chinese people. The people are victims of the former two.

There’s nothing wrong with filmmakers either lionizing or lampooning U.S. institutions. That’s what freedom of speech is all about. In “Age of Extinction,” though, satire ends at the water’s edge. As soon as the action shifts to Hong Kong, the outbreak of alien-engendered chaos is met by a sea captain ordering a call to “the central government” for help, and later China’s defense minister does a walk-and-talk, sternly and seriously vowing to defend Hong Kong. America’s government is portrayed either ridiculous or diabolical, but China’s is assured and effective.

Not coincidentally, “Age of Extinction” is considered an “officially assisted production,” made with help from Jiaflix Enterprises and official state broadcaster CCTV’s China Movie Channel, who ponied up for part of the budget and get a piece of the box office. No such deal gets struck in China without the consent and approval of the Beijing government and the Chinese Communist Party, and in this case, Paramount is in business with the Beijing regime directly, through CCTV.


Furthermore the "Corrupt Megacorp' Plotline has been done time and time again (from Alien to the friggin Lego Movie). . . Despite what you may have learned Corporations and businesses are usually good things for society, they create jobs and promote human progress. Even if that wasn't the case I'd take a corrupt Corporation with limitations to a corrupt government without them. Would it kill Bay and his cronies to be a bit more creative?

You know whats really offensive? The fact people the film industry refuses to call out the Chinese Regime for the Murderous bastards they are for the sake of profit.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:21 pm

Ray: You know what's really offensive? Having some self-righteous guy on the internet tell me what movies I should and shouldn't see, one who does it by telling me I'm an unpatriotic sheep who's supporting communism if I go see a movie about giant robots beating one another up.

I haven't seen this movie. And honestly, I'm not keen on the notion of wasting three hours of my life watching a crappy movie just to make a point. But I'm sorely tempted, since your attitude in this thread is really pissing me off.

Ænimal: Thanks for the link. First bit of useful info in the thread.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby delispin25 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:49 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:I'm not asking for Optimus and Megatron to be discussing philosophy or the semantics of good and evil (although that would be awesome) all I'm asking is that they develop as characters and be interesting and compelling, and not overglorified plot devices and/or sidekicks.

Good, because that would be fucking crazy, in fact, asking for anything more than explosions, titties, shitty jokes and action from a movie based off of a fucking toy line, would be insane. The studios doesn't care about what critics think of their movie, just as long as it makes money, and as long as there are children and frat boys, it will make money.

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Postby Clover » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:46 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Take, say, Edge of Tomorrow: great reviews, sure, but people wonder why it isn't more popular. And the reason is simple: it isn't very good. Its sole redeeming feature is the fact that its female lead isn't lame, and that's not much to hang a movie on.

Us Eva-natics™ sure know quality filmmaking. I mean, only Japan could provide the rich technobabble sci-fi and pretentious dialogue I need. What's a story without 7 twists that go nowhere?

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Postby Defectron » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:47 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Ray: You know what's really offensive? Having some self-righteous guy on the internet tell me what movies I should and shouldn't see, one who does it by telling me I'm an unpatriotic sheep who's supporting communism if I go see a movie about giant robots beating one another up.

I haven't seen this movie. And honestly, I'm not keen on the notion of wasting three hours of my life watching a crappy movie just to make a point. But I'm sorely tempted, since your attitude in this thread is really pissing me off.

Ænimal: Thanks for the link. First bit of useful info in the thread.


I too am tempted to see it just because I know it would piss someone off. I don't really care about Ray or Bageeras opinions on it, I just like to piss people off. But what I like to do more then piss people off is not make micheal bay happy. And I know that me seeing this movie would make him happy, so I think I will just wait til it shows up on tv.
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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:06 pm

I agree and disagree.

The Avengers respected it's source material and was a good movie, the Hunger Games respected it's source material (mostly) and was a good and compelling movie, even Daronovsky 's Noah at least somewhat respected it's source material and made for a good movie.

just because something is connected to a toy line doesn't mean it can't have merit of its own and be compelling. It's the difference between Schumacher and Nolan. Schumacher turned Batman into a toy commercial and joke. Nolan turned him into Social Commentary and a Cinematic Icon.

couldn't something similar be pulled off with transformers?

@Bagheera

Jeez. Hey of you didn't go see it, more power to ya. Politics aside, It means you are intelligent and aren't a sheep.

Listen this isn't directed towards you. I'm just putting the blame where it belongs, we can blame Bay all we want but he didn't pull 300-500 million dollars out of his rear. The audience gave him that. I'm tired of seeing hacks like Bay get billions while good movies and directors get the shaft by both the box office and studio. I'm just putting the blame where I believe it belongs.

Good movies fail and bad movies succeed because the Average moviegoer will almost always choose a cinematic equivalent of Junk Food over the cinematic equivalent of a real good meal. Every time I put faith in the audience that maybe a good movie will be at the top of the charts, it's always crap like Avatar, T4, Frozen etc. and never good sophisticated movies like Life of Pi, Planet of the apes, How to train your dragon etc. It's disappointing to say the least.

I' indulge in dumb movies now and then. But to use the food comparison, again I try to keep my palette sophisticated I always try to pick a smart movie over a dumb one. Junk food is cheaper than real food. A good movie and bad movie cost exactly the same. If you could get a Lobster dinner for the price of a Pizza you'd choose the Lobster right? It's exactly the same thing with movies.

Im not telling you what to do with your life. I am asking you politely to Choose the Lobster over the big mac. To Choose sophisticated film over dumb films. To tell your friends to do the same. You alone have the power to save cinema from Bays grubby hands.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby delispin25 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:52 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Im not telling you what to do with your life. I am asking you politely to Choose the Lobster over the big mac. To Choose sophisticated film over dumb films. To tell your friends to do the same. You alone have the power to save cinema from Bays grubby hands.

"If you don't like what I like, fuck you, you are a sheep and a dipshit."
That's exactly what this sounds like. Reminds me of when I was in grade 8, thought I was the coolest for seeing The 400 Blows, and that everyone else had shit taste in music and only liked popcorn movies. But then I realized I was just being a pretentious dickhead and people didn't give a fuck about my sophisticated taste.

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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:58 pm

(Sigh) :facepalm:

Whats the point of even trying to be nice about it? :irked: Does text have a tone of voice?
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:31 am

You said what you said, Ray. Being nice about it now doesn't change any of that. If you want to rethink your position I'm sure we're all ears, but putting a softer spin on it doesn't make it any less noisome.

Basically, as soon as you cast someone as a sheep, or unpatriotic, or a supporter of communist China because they watched a movie about robots beating each other up you lose me. People see movies for lots of reasons. Some may go for the hype, and some might say "that looks dumb as fuck, but the action scenes will be cool and Lockdown's supposed to be kinda cool, so why not?" Look at why they're actually going instead of making assumptions and generalizing, and stop judging them just because they like things you don't.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Squigsquasher » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:14 am

Also, I can indeed confirm that Lockdown is in fact awesome, and kind of terrifying.

I can't help but think it's a bit hypocritical that when the people screaming "TOO MUCH ARMY PORN IT'S MILITARY GLORIFYING SHIT" actually get what they want (a Transformers movie that doesn't glorify the army and portrays them as utter asshats) they're still complaining. You guys got what you wanted, now shut the fuck up.

With regards to the China thing...so what? Is it a crime to portray a country other than the US as heroic? It's not even like the Chinese military even do much- it's the Autobots who fight off the Decepticons and Lockdown! Cade Yager and his friends help, but that's about it- heck, the Chinese character who does the most is a freakin' FBI agent!

To paraphrase Thew Adams (AKA best online reviewer ever) the political agenda, if there even is one, isn't "China stronk, remove USA" as much as "Don't screw over your friends".

Oh, and for the record? If it weren't for time and budget constraints, Sergeant Lennox and the other army guys would have appeared in the movie on the Autobot's side!
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