Reichu wrote:Taking into account everything that we see and what Ritsuko et al. say...

Ritsuko's line about "one human's wish" can be taken to mean that all that is happening is a necessary consequence of Shinji's refusal to let go of Rei. In fact I'd say that this is the most natural interpretation, given that Ritsuko doesn't appear to have very much knowledge of Yui or Gendou's plans. (In addition, referring to the awakening of Unit 01 as having happened as a result of this wish doesn't make much sense if the wish was to awaken Unit 01 in the first place - as Gendou and presumably Yui wished.

The way she phrases the statement makes it sound even more like EoE: Shinji is providing the wish, and god is providing the power - albeit a different god. The implication being that Shinji is closing off his heart to everyone except Rei (or alternatively, closing off his heart with her stuck inside it, given what happens to Rei's physical form) and consequently is okay with wiping out everything that could disturb his condition. And Yui is doing it for him.

Sorry to draw your ire like this, but if that's the case, fuck Yui.

Well, first it needs to be established exactly what the Hell is going on here. As far as I can tell, the ingredients of "God mode" necessitated Lilith (via Rei) coming into contact with Unit-01's core. Zeruel may also be a part, though I'm not sure how. When Shinji rescued Rei, he inadvertently allowed this to happen. That's how I read it.

As far as Ritsuko's words go ("Casting aside its humanoid shape" is very mysterious) I'm wondering what "Purely for the sake of bringing about one human's wish" means. Maybe Azathoth is onto something. I also wouldn't rule out Gendo being the one she's referring to (they immediately cut away to Kaji talking about Gendo's plot, for whatever that's worth).

[BTW Azathoth, your new avatar is the complete polar opposite of the last one. She's also less childish.]

Azathoth wrote:Ritsuko's line about "one human's wish" can be taken to mean that all that is happening is a necessary consequence of Shinji's refusal to let go of Rei.

There seems to be a certain degree of parallel with Second Impact...

Reichu wiki prose wrote:It is unclear precisely why Eva-01 becomes an agent of the world's destruction in response to Shinji's wish, although earlier in the film Rei said that "Eva is a mirror that reflects your heart." Further elaboration may also be found in Gendo's statement as he and Fuyutsuki look upon the devastated South Pole, "there are also those who desired this disastrous outcome. A world untainted by original sin that no man may enter." (Emphasis added.) What might be gleaned from this is that Third Impact did not simply initiate by chance; the desire for it existed in Shinji's heart, and Eva-01 set it in motion, similar to how Second Impact is said to be a result of human desire.

(In addition, referring to the awakening of Unit 01 as having happened as a result of this wish doesn't make much sense if the wish was to awaken Unit 01 in the first place - as Gendou and presumably Yui wished.

Speaking of which -- despite squall's "one person" translation, the Japanese just says "hito no negai". But maybe you already knew that. :j

The way she phrases the statement makes it sound even more like EoE: Shinji is providing the wish, and god is providing the power - albeit a different god. (snip)

This is slightly different from EoE, though... There, Rei actually got Shinji to say that everybody should die. Here, Shinji is retrieving one core from another so he can have 'Ayanami back', and it makes all sorts of shit happen in a way that, unlike EoE, doesn't seem to extend directly from the original desire at all.

Sorry to draw your ire like this, but if that's the case, fuck Yui.

Re!Yui is practically a non-entity at this point, so fuck her all you want.

Warren Peace: Zeruel is probably important for Fruit of Life-y reasons. As far as Ritsuko's comments about Eva's transformation go, I'll just link to this.

In any event, I remain bewildered how anyone can watch that scene and come to the conclusion that Shinji is "in control" (at least, not without simultaneously laying all the blame for 3I on him).

I wouldn't lay blame on him since he can't possibly know what he's doing, but the movie implies that his actions did cause it, being that everything he does is mirrored in Unit-01's movements.

Warren Peace wrote:I wouldn't lay blame on him since he can't possibly know what he's doing, but the movie implies that his actions did cause it, being that everything he does is mirrored in Unit-01's movements.

^This. Ritsuko clearly states that the happening is different from your usual berserk.
Yui may have "agreed" to it, but it's fundamentally Shinji's doing and I don't recall any single scene or comment that would imply anything else.

Warren Peace wrote:I also wouldn't rule out Gendo being the one she's referring to (they immediately cut away to Kaji talking about Gendo's plot, for whatever that's worth).

As Reichu reminds me, Japanese is a horrible horrible language which allows for a line like this: the subject could be one person, a vague "people", or even the entire human race (although I feel like they'd use "ningen" instead of "hito" if they meant humanity in a general sense?) And of course Gendou has wished for Unit 01's awakening, since that's the entire plot so far. But I think it's pretty important that Gendou hasn't actually been doing anything this whole time. Whatever Gendou wished (if it is Gendou they mean), Shinji must also have had a wish which was in consequence equivalent to it. In this scene, Shinji articulates a wish to have Rei back, and then to keep her with him indefinitely.

Warren Peace wrote:[BTW Azathoth, your new avatar is the complete polar opposite of the last one. She's also less childish.]

Oh, I don't know about that. There's a reason I picked her as the follow-up, and not just because she's kawaii. Of all the surviving characters in the series (except Daenerys obviously), Arya is probably the most like Viserys - albeit she has, or had, a sense of humor.

Reichu wrote:Here, Shinji is retrieving one core from another so he can have 'Ayanami back', and it makes all sorts of shit happen in a way that, unlike EoE, doesn't seem to extend directly from the original desire at all.

Well, in a thematic sense, sure it does. Anno is saying, as he's said before, that remaining inside your surrogate womb (in this case, contentedly embracing your hug pillow, rather than whining and sobbing about how you don't have any friends) is exactly the same as destroying the entire world and killing everyone. But Shinji's "It's all right like this" is focused on the inside of the shell, rather than the external apocalypse, which is why the question arises: does he really know what he's doing here? (not as in "does he fully understand the consequences" but "is he actually aware that the world is exploding outside")

Reichu wrote:Zeruel is probably important for Fruit of Life-y reasons.

Trying to track where the Fruit of Life is at any point in that scene makes my head hurt. To me, though, the way the scene plays out almost suggests that the "Angelic nature" the Eva develops (which would presumably include Fruit of Life?) is coming from Shinji, not Zeruel; and all they do get from the poor bastard is a complete Rei.

Shinji did not willingly seek out the fruit of life (He wanted Rei), but since Rei was assimilated into Zeruel and EVA 01 absorbed it, it's probably safe to assume that EVA 01 has it now...

Kendrix wrote:Shinji did not willingly seek out the fruit of life (He wanted Rei), but since Rei was assimilated into Zeruel and EVA 01 absorbed it, it's probably safe to assume that EVA 01 has it now...

I'm reasonably sure that Unit 01 has it by the end of the film, but what I don't get is at what point we're meant to understand Unit 01 gains it. Long before the Pseudo-Evolved 01 ever makes physical contact with Zeruel (in fact, it's been a while since I've rewatched the scene but I don't recall Unit 01 ever touching Zeruel after the first stage of pseudo-evolution begins), it already is demonstrably far more powerful than Zeruel. Where's that power coming from? In Rebuild, this is the first time an Eva has moved without any power source whatsoever (the Leliel event having been cut), and yet, without umbilical or backup batteries, Unit 01 is already so much more powerful than Zeruel that it can take the Angel out in about thirty seconds.

My theory would be either that somehow, Shinji has the Fruit of Life (hence the non-sequitur red eyes) - or that, more probably, all Evas contain a latent Fruit of Life which only becomes active when the pseudo-evolution process is triggered (I guess by the pilot reaching Great Beyond Depth or something? this is what annoys me, the cause and effect of all this is damn near impossible to follow). I never understood why the Evas wouldn't naturally have S2 engines anyway, so that makes more sense to me.

Back in old!NGE, Yui pwned Zeruel at a comparable speed/with about as little resistance without any fruit of life.
The power level/abilities are quite similar.
God mode has different aesthetics, but it mostly the same EVA being used with full potential.

I mean, the EVAs are SoL-derived, they should theorethically pwn the angels automatically, except they're limited by the pilot's synch ratio/human mind/strategies...

Azathoth wrote:or that, more probably, all Evas contain a latent Fruit of Life which only becomes active when the pseudo-evolution process is triggered

I think this is the most reasonable conclusion, or at least that Unit-01 has one. Yui was always special.

...

To me, the most prominent clue pointing towards Yui having some control over things is her behavior before Shinji arrives. Rejecting the D.S., thrashing around in her cage, eyes glowing... she was making a conscious effort to ensure that only Shinji could get inside her God, that woman is a pervert. So why would she suddenly loose all the control she had before? She's most likely just playing along with Shinji, because their goals happen to coinicide at the moment, as Seele00 mentioned it.

Azathoth wrote:As Reichu reminds me, Japanese is a horrible horrible language which allows for a line like this: the subject could be one person, a vague "people", or even the entire human race (although I feel like they'd use "ningen" instead of "hito" if they meant humanity in a general sense?) And of course Gendou has wished for Unit 01's awakening, since that's the entire plot so far. But I think it's pretty important that Gendou hasn't actually been doing anything this whole time. Whatever Gendou wished (if it is Gendou they mean), Shinji must also have had a wish which was in consequence equivalent to it. In this scene, Shinji articulates a wish to have Rei back, and then to keep her with him indefinitely.

True, though I do think two things are worth pointing out:

1.) Gendo doesn't seem particularly disturbed at what's happening (granted, he does have the same emotional reaction to everything)
2.) Kaji states that Seele will blame him for this. I'm not sure exactly why, but if Shinji/Unit-01/Yui is responsible, Gendo is at least a co-conspirator in their eyes.

Warren Peace wrote:True, though I do think two things are worth pointing out:

1.) Gendo doesn't seem particularly disturbed at what's happening (granted, he does have the same emotional reaction to everything)

The CR also points out that Gendo really *was* content with the results/calm. Tsumaki didn't quite believe it when Anno told him.
I think he knew someone would intervene.
Still, he had no "direct" influence on the scene - all he did was pretty much introducing Shinji and Rei to each other, everything else just played out by itself...


As for the Dummy Plug thing - well, that only proves that Re!Yui still seems to want her Baby to be the Chosen One. That doesn't necessarily mean she has own plans she needs to "personally" take care of, she may just want Shinji to stay at NERV.

As for the "weird powers thing" - that's the point - it looks very different when Yui's the one in control. (It still does in Rebuild, the ep 1/2 battle was still in there) He was probably that connected to the EVA (Plug Depht etc)that he could use it's powers without really thinking about it, just like you walk somewhere without thinking about the exact method of moving your feet. - That's why he ended up triggering TI, he did not know the extent o the Power the EVA has/ wasn't all too familiar with it.
EVA 01 is pretty much a demigod, and at this time, Shinji could use it's full power like his own body - The AT-Field is pretty much a psychic thingy...
By the time the core is pulled out, he's probably already LCL'd, which should give him as much control as Yui. There is nothing alluding to her to be seen.
The artistic visualization doesn't schow him pulling out a core, but that what was absorbed in there/what he wanted from it.
I it showed him with a core, it wouldn't be that artisti would it? In that case, just showing EVA 01 pulling the thing out would've been enough.

Reading that, I also realized that Yui has the same attitude toward Shinji that Shinji had toward Rei (assuming she's aware of what's happening, anyway). Yui would sacrifice the entire world before allowing the Dummy Plug to be inserted. She'd rather Shinji be obliterated than separated from her. If anything, that's more extreme than what Shinji says about Rei.

Warren Peace wrote:Reading that, I also realized that Yui has the same attitude toward Shinji that Shinji had toward Rei (assuming she's aware of what's happening, anyway). Yui would sacrifice the entire world before allowing the Dummy Plug to be inserted. She'd rather Shinji be obliterated than separated from her. If anything, that's more extreme than what Shinji says about Rei.

I agree that there's definitely a personality parallel there, but it isn't clingyness - Id'd compare it to Shinji hinding in that shelter and refusing to pilot the EVA, not really noting the drath and destruction around him, making it clear that he absolutely DOES NOT WANT.
Now, Yui absolutely DOES WANT him to be the "Chosen One"/pilot of unit 01.
I don't think it's because of clingyness, tough, since she eventually departs into space and didn't try to persuade him to leave the EVA in 20...
It's more that she has a role she wants him to fulfill (and thinks it's a good thing/ a "shining future")
She does not even pause to think for long enough for her to notice that Shinji might not get there in time because of poof end of the world.
She's optimistic enough to be sure that he will come, tough.
(Strage pair, she and Gendo. He's more the type with a very negative worldview. Also, ep 20 indicates that unlike Yui, he might've wished for Shinji to have a "normal life"... I wonder if they ever argued about that - then, who knows if she told Gendo of that plan - NGE!Gendo probably didn't know, but Re!Gendo seems to have known...)

The power level/abilities are quite similar

no disrespect but the power levels and abilities between berserker Yui and Godmode Shinji are not the same not in a long shot. let me explain

to examine the difference in power we must first look at the opponent the power is being used againts. In this case it is Zeruel. It is very safe to say that there is NO comparison in strength between NGE Zeruel and RE Zeruel. REZeruel would annihilate NGEZeruel and send it packing within seconds for the following reasons.
1. a Stronger beam attack(REZeruel pierces 24 layers of geofront armor with one shot VS the 18 layers NGEZeruel pierced)
2.Abilities: ReZeruel can use its beam attack,arms,AT field and munching attacks where as NGE Zeruel can use its arms and beam attack(less weapons)
3. and the most important difference in strength is the AT field, REZeruel has many layers of AT field each layer stronger than the 1 layer of NGEZeruel, need proof? NGE Zeruel got it's 1 layer pierced by Rie ALONE with a dull shaped N2 mine to get the job done. REZeruel easily started pushing Rei back even when she was trying to force a sharper edged N2 missile aided by a rocket and both of her arms, and the AT field still held up with two evas one in beast mode right next to it and Mari literally had to rip all of the layers down to the very last one to be able to hit Zeruel with the missile because 1 layer was still enough to repel the missile even with 2 evas next to it with maxed out AT fields. In conclusion with all of this being said Godmode Shinji defeated a much Bigger Stronger and Better Version of Zeruel than Yui did. As far as a difference in abilities the most obvious ones are the fact that godmode Shinji used his AT field to make a new arm where Yui had to use a piece of Zeruel to get one. and God mode Shinji has that incredibly powerful beam attack.

...

Seele00TextOnly wrote:People keep saying Godmode Shinji but Ritsuko's dialogue only refers to Eva-01 becoming godlike to grant the wish of the pilot... and we all know what is meant when she refers to Eva-01 like that... Yui.

Shinji's extremely unusual behavior indicates that something may be off with Ritsuko's analysis - it wouldn't be the first time. Certainly the purpose of the exercise was to give Yui god powers, but Shinji appears to be making use of them as well. And by the end of the scene, Unit 01 is as much his body as it is Yui's.

Seele00TextOnly wrote:Yui is the one achieving Godmode. Folks are confusing Aladdin with the Genie. Shinji's the wishboy, not the enactor.

I'm kind of inclined to side with Seele00 on this for the time being.

Shinji might not have a body independent from Eva-01 right now, but that doesn't mean that it's "his". A sort of loose analogy might be drawn with an embryo's exploitation of and dependence upon its mother's body. (Oh, to finally learn the truth of "the quickening Eva-08"...)

fadadio: I doubt such a direct comparison is really appropriate. Within the NGE universe, Zeruel was a badass baddie, and Yui took him out without breaking a sweat. That was impressive back then, but, with a bigger budget and altered plot circumstances, Khara were kind of obligated to dial things up a bit. So Zeruel is stronger, and Eva-01 has to put on a more drawn-out fireworks display to take him down.