Control of Near 3I (Shinji vs. Eva/Yui)

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 31, 2011 3:18 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote: I extremely doubt she was down with "KILL ALL HUMANITY"


She seened to have been in EoE. "Hey, Shin-chan, what do you wish for? Would you like me and Rei-chan to tang everybody for you?"
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 3:27 pm

I don't know where you got that quote from. That doesn't actually happen, nor does anything much like it.

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Postby Shogo-Kun » Tue May 31, 2011 3:39 pm

View Original PostLegendary wrote:I don't know where you got that quote from. That doesn't actually happen, nor does anything much like it.


It's called "sarcasm".
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Postby Kendrix » Tue May 31, 2011 3:50 pm

She does say "What do you wish for" (When the GNK appears) - and after that, we don't hear her after Shinji is already finished with his decision.
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Postby Legendary » Tue May 31, 2011 3:55 pm

Oh, my bad. My CTRL+F-fu missed a line. But no, she doesn't say what do you wish for. This is the script:

Yui (voice):
This Rei is your heart... Your very hopes and dreams...

Rei (voice):
What do you wish for?

My apologies. However, that is not any question, nor does she encourage Shinji to do anything. After this scene is the sandbox scene, then Shinji's memories, then Kaji/Misato sex, Asuka criticizing sex but embracing it, breaking down, Shinji offering to help her, Asuka refusing, love-train, Shinji begging for help from Asuka, Asuka refusing and attacking Shinji, Shinji strangling her, and THEN Shinji and Rei, and ONLY Shinji and Rei, discussing what Shinji wants, and if humanity should live or not. Yui doesn't get involved. She doesn't do anything again to Shinji until much later...

On the whole, Yui's presence is questionable at best, and non-existent based on a pure reading of the script.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:24 am

View Original PostillustriusCheese wrote:Looked to me like Shinji was the God since he was in control, not Yui.

"In control" implies conscious control of the Eva's actions. If so, then Shinji having control over the pseudo-evolved Eva means that he willfully enacted every last thing the Eva did -- including the levitation, wing-sprouting, growing a halo, making the halo turn into a black hole, transforming the Eva into a flaming energy condenser set on killing everything...

Yeah, if Shinji really WAS in control of all that, then he'd explicitly be the one causing Third Impact and knowing it. I don't think that highly of Re!Shinji, but I'm pretty sure he's not that big of a jerk. There isn't a direct correspondence between what Shinji wishes for and everything that the Eva does -- like maybe there's something in there that's using what he wants to get what it wants.

Legendary wrote:On the whole, Yui's presence is questionable at best, and non-existent based on a pure reading of the script.

Yui's presence in EoE?

A little reading between the lines goes a long way.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Legendary » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:49 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yui's presence in EoE?


Uh, no. She obviously does stuff while in Eva-01. That's to be expected. She definitely contributes at the beginning of 3I and the end. However, there's no evidence that she contributes to Shinji's choice to kill everyone (even to say that she approves of whatever he does), while Kendrix says there is.

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:58 am

View Original PostLegendary wrote:there's no evidence that she contributes to Shinji's choice to kill everyone.

claims like this are just part of the worrisome disease I call "demonize Shinji because we think he's a demonic, unholy prick", which needs to die

honestly, there's hardly any evidence for either way by the contrary so until we get explanations (and IF there are any explanations. Shinji's childish rant over he cares about no one anymore doesn't count. It's just frustrated angsty boy talk not meant to be taken at hand as being psychopathic and those who strongly believe that extremely fucking absurd and ridiculous.), there's no absolute proper answer
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:04 am

Legendary: Well, arguably, she contributes to that choice by her actions more than her words, by coercing the boy back into her spine and dragging him into a rite of systematic psychological torture.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Legendary » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:06 am

View Original PostGasmaskAvenger wrote:claims like this are just part of the worrisome disease I call "demonize Shinji because we think he's a demonic, unholy prick", which needs to die

honestly, there's hardly any evidence for either way by the contrary so until we get explanations (and IF there are any explanations. Shinji's childish rant over he cares about no one anymore doesn't count. It's just frustrated angsty boy talk not meant to be taken at hand as being psychopathic and those who strongly believe that extremely fucking absurd and ridiculous.), there's no absolute proper answer


...

Okay um.

First, just to be sure, I'm not talking about Rebuild, bub.

I'm talking about EoE. And uh, Shinji kills everyone there. One can argue that he didn't know that it would really happen (which is fine), or that circumstances make it justifiable, but he still tells an obviously vastly powerful being to just kill everyone. You can't really argue that fact.

So, yeah...

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Postby GasmaskAvenger » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:12 am

well I apologize then, though this being in the Rebuild section and the fact that some claim Re!Shinji is a psychopathic monster who seems to have telepathic powers and is selective in who he chooses to save didn't help


plus I overlooked that the thread got derailed into EoE talk so all is forgiven
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Postby Warren Peace » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:46 pm

How/when Yui is conscious in Unit-01 is too mysterious to be conclusive about. In NGE, the rule seemed to be that she could only take control when Unit-01 was deactivated. What's happening at the end of 2.0 seems more like a chemical reaction than anything having to do with "will". You put all these elements together and God Mode happens. Who/what controls that entity is completely up in the air. Shinji looks to have ripped apart the controls, but who knows if even needs them now...

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:54 pm

For whatever it's worth: Shinji was in Eva-01's entry plug the entire time, according to the 2.22 script. (I'm getting EoE flashbacks here...)
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Postby Knuckles » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:59 pm

Let's focus on another aspect of Shinji for a while.

During the scene where everyone is heading to Rei's house for dinner, Shinji is seen walking to her house. Did anyone notice that he had something in his hand? It was a gift. =O

It's all theory as to what the gift is and who it's for, but the point is, has he ever given a gift to anyone before? Food notwithstanding.

(granted, he does express fear that Rei's cooking is going to suck, so it very well might be food in that little bag. But for discussion's sake, let's say it's not. It was much too small a bag to be enough food to bring to a dinner party anyways)
"It doesn't matter. This is all I need.."
"Rei is genetically his mom, socially his friend/coworker/classmate, legally his sister, spiritually the progenitor of the entire 'normal' biosphere, physically a mass of matter that ought not be, and technically (depending on which Rei we're talking about) also some form of the risen dead.

...and I still like Shinji/Rei."

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Postby the_seventh_child » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:12 pm

View Original PostKnuckles wrote:It's all theory as to what the gift is and who it's for, but the point is, has he ever given a gift to anyone before? Food notwithstanding.

What are you talking about? Food can be the best gift. You can't have an argument talking about gifts and just leave the food out.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:40 pm

View Original PostKnuckles wrote:It's all theory as to what the gift is and who it's for, but the point is, has he ever given a gift to anyone before?

Maybe he used to celebrate Christmas with his teacher. Who knows?

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Postby Knuckles » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:42 pm

Giving someone your leftovers and putting thought into a purchased (or made) gift are two different things. I agree food is a great gift, though.
"It doesn't matter. This is all I need.."
"Rei is genetically his mom, socially his friend/coworker/classmate, legally his sister, spiritually the progenitor of the entire 'normal' biosphere, physically a mass of matter that ought not be, and technically (depending on which Rei we're talking about) also some form of the risen dead.

...and I still like Shinji/Rei."

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:28 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Who/what controls that entity is completely up in the air.

My point, if I had any at all, was that arguing that Shinji is in complete control also means that one cannot exempt Shinji from essentially complete responsibility for what happens. I'm not saying that Cheese was making this claim; it's just a thought that popped into my head that seemed relevant to Re!Shinji debates in general.

One hears that "Shinji was in (total) control" a lot, but that doesn't really seem to get reconciled with the fact that Eva-01 initiates Third Impact. What does that have to do with Shinji's expressed desire, and what HE seems focused upon -- getting Rei out of the Angel? It seems to be happening at the same time, without Shinji directly informing it. Is an exciting new definition for "in control" being invoked? Just imagine if Shinji commanding the Eva through a normal Angel-slaying operation resulted in reality spontaneously breaking all over the place to catastrophic effect. Something rather different is happening at Near 3I. Fuyutsuki said that Eva-01's been "awakened", so maybe that's important...

Shinji looks to have ripped apart the controls, but who knows if even needs them now...

He ripped off the part of the seat that normally covers his lap. I don't think its function is really resolved, but I doubt it has any purpose related to synch and the Eva-pilot link-up...
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Warren Peace » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:... the fact that Eva-01 initiates Third Impact.


It seemed more to me that no one initiated Third Impact, that it just kind of happened due to all these elements coming together.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:41 pm

Warren: Why does it seem that way to you? Taking into account everything that we see and what Ritsuko et al. say...

RITSUKO:
Casting aside its humanoid shape, the Eva is now regaining its original form.
Breaking free of humanity's grip, it's transforming itself into a divine entity close to God.
Inside the huge swells of complementarity, it's binding together the heavens, the earth, and all creation, transforming into an energy condensate.
Purely for the sake of bringing about one human's wish. Just for that.

(...)

Kaji:
Unit-01 is now the awakening trigger ahead of everyone else.
Commander Ikari, I don't think Seele will take this lying down.

FUYUTSUKI:
As we thought, those two were enough to awaken Unit-01.

(...)

RITSUKO:
This is the birth of a new lifeform that's grown beyond this world's Logos.
And the price... is the death of all old lifeforms.
Third Impact has begun, picking up where the Second left off.
The world is about to end.


I dunno, maybe I should split this shit off so I can pursue it into further detail...
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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