Series Ending, or Movie Ending?

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Postby kosure » Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:13 pm

I agree for the most part with all concurrent devotees. Everything in Eva suggests two endings to me. The mental, (that i think makes up the bulk of the series) and the physical (which weighs in even only beacuse of the violence, and sadness of it all) So... two endings.

Personally I tend to watch EoE more beacuse it better encoperates the mental and physical aspects of eva. I'm also an artist, and I like EoE better for the visual aspects. (Like Asuka in 02 jumping up during the battle, and the cable flaring)

And finally the issue of Instrumentality. I think its very hard to say weather or not Shinji accepts or regects Instrumentality at the end of either ending.

In the series, its obvious that Shinji has come to terms, or accepted some of his demons, and things that made him unhappy. But does that mean accepting, or rejecting instrumentality. (not conclusivly in my opinion) Lots of people work out their problems without inciting the mass evolution of the human race.

In the movie, everyone in the world turns into one entity, except Shinji and Asuka. Does that mean accepting or rejecting Instrumentality. (I'm not sure it does.) Maybe at the end of instrumentality two people have to start again. Maybe all humanity is condensed into them. (Shinji = meek, unsure, nice. Asuka = Overbearing, confident, mean)

At the end of the day, I just don't think that the audience knows enough about instrumentality to say how it went either way.

I think what manticore said is really good
but that is what makes Eva's later half so interesting..its mainly up to the individual viewer's interpretation


The fact that some of this is up in the air, and that everyone can get something diffrent out of it is one of the reasons that I like eva so much. Its why i think that its generally accepted to be one of the most important anime series ever.

I also want to thank Nephilim for posting thoese pics, I never realised how concretly the endings are tied together visually.

sorry that was so long. *tries to pull entry into sea of dirac, bit it won't fit cause its too big*
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Postby Timesplitter 01 » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:16 am

I reckon that they are the same , but can be interprited in two different ways

Eg " Good bye mother "

That was in both.

What I am saying is that the series could have a finite ending or infinite ending , which leaves it open to debate. Where as EoE has a finite ending there is no interpretation or debate (besides Asuka last words)
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Postby RubberSoul » Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:30 pm

Let me elaborate my response. I made this earlier and I thought it was a pretty good representation of my opinion, so here goes.

Personally, I prefer the movie ending. It felt more complete to me.

The revelation that Shinji had made in the series ending (That he didn't have to hate himself and that he could enjoy life) was too fast paced for me. I would have preferred that he develop that revelation over a couple of years instead of mere minutes. It's more realistic.

I've been in Shinji's place before, and I just find it hard to believe that he could resolve his problems so quickly.
In the movie ending, Shinji never really learned to love himself, but in time he'll learn to do that. I'm a bit more satisfied with that.
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Postby Phaze » Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm

It wasn't really only a few minutes, it took two episodes for him to come to his realization.
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Postby RubberSoul » Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:47 pm

Phaze wrote:It wasn't really only a few minutes, it took two episodes for him to come to his realization.


Yes, I know, but I think the process of self-realization is beautiful thing, and the last two episodes didn't really illustrate that.
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Postby thewayneiac » Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:43 pm

Nephilim wrote:
In the TV ending Shinji doesn't accept complementation !!!!!

At the end Misato says to Shinji:
Misato: Considering that, the real world itself is not always bad.
Shinji: The real world might not always be bad.


He accepts to live in the REAL world not in a fake one. He realizes that he has to learn to love himself to love others and to be happy.
And also, we can see that the room in wich he is, starts to brake, meaning that he breaks free of the instrumentality (kind of)

I think that the TV ending shows what happens inside all carachter minds at different times of EoE, not necessarily during 3rd impact.


Over on the Anime Nation forum, Shin-Seiki has pointed out some supporting evidence for the, "Room Breaking", theory. He points out that it is probably supposed to be the same scene as the Black Moon breaking and releasing all of the souls back to Earth, another convergence between the series and the movie.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:20 pm

Well, since it hasn't come up in this thread, I figure it would be usefull to post a link to what is widely considered the definitive examination of the issue; "An argument for the concurrent nature of episodes 26' and 26" by MDWigs. Since his site seems to be down at the moment, I'll link to the essay where it originally appeared on Animeboards:
http://animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=44203

IMHO, I believe that, with this essay, Wigs thoroughly demolishes the notion that Shinji is accepting Instrumentality in the TV ending; but even if I had never read it, it would never remotely occur to me that he was accepting it. I'm with houtaru, when he said above:
I'm very curious to know why others believe he accepted complementation in the tv ending. I've watched 25 and 26 many times now and see no evidence for it. I can't even see it as a possiblity. Am I missing something?


For Shinji to be accepting Instrumentality would entail turning everything that is said and shown up to that point on its head. I'm really mystified why there even is an ongoing controversy over this issue, seeing as how the weight of evidence and argument so entirely favors one side over the other...
Last edited by Shin-seiki on Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Dave » Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:23 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I'm really mystified why there even is an ongoing controversy over this issue, seeing as how the weight of evidence and argument so entirely favors one side over the other...


People like to argue. :D

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Postby Hexon.Arq » Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:44 am

I have to say that I do prefer the movie ending, but only for the reason that it makes more sense as a (mostly) coherent narrative. I would have been happy with the T.V. ending, but there's something that makes more sense, and so I tend to go with that. Both are legitimate, however. It's just that the T.V. ending doesn't allow for sequels....

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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:01 pm

Just when you think that there's nothing new to be said on this subject, along comes a bizarre new theory. I've heard people argue concurrence, and I've heard people argue divergence, but in THIS thread over on AnimeNation a poster (Grant Oldman) tries to argue both at once. (You have to scroll down about 4 pages to find the start of this part of the discussion.)

This guy says that sometime after EOE ends, Rei gives Shinji a second "do-over" and he calls Instrumentality back on. He thinks that this is what is happening in Ep. 26. :shock: :roll: We've been trying to talk some sense into him, but no luck so far. Just thought that this would amuse you.
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Postby the-artist-known-as-chris » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:26 am

Looking back at this topic again, im gonna have to say I favor the Tv ending more, but at the same time neither endings leave me fully satisfied. Im hoping the Manga's interpretation of the ending will finally ease my mind.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:06 am

the-artist-known-as-chris wrote:Looking back at this topic again, im gonna have to say I favor the Tv ending more, but at the same time neither endings leave me fully satisfied.


Why not?

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Postby the-artist-known-as-chris » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:18 am

Well, The Tv endings problem for me was it was good closure for Shinji but didnt resolve anything else. Whilst the movie ending touched upon a lot of things left unawnsered in the series, yet opened up yet more questions.

I dunno, EOE "feels" more complete, but the series ending dispite it's lack of info on things felt more final somhow.

Bah, I need sleep, it's 4 am.

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Postby Sectre01 » Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:49 pm

I think Eva was a little too short. It should have had 100+ episodes so more things would be explained. Well maybe not that much but it could/ve had like 10 more episodes. But I prefer EoE over the episode ending because it was just so much cooler. Common, the soldiers slaughtering nerv personnel, the Eva Series fight, awesome shit. Oh, and the beggining was cool too. :shock: :D :twisted:

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Postby Tsukasa » Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:37 pm

I personally favor the movie ending simply because each character had their own 'shining' moment as opposed to the movie just closing in on Shinji specifically. I really wanted to see Asuka kick butt, but it never really happened in the series...the movie fixed that. Asuka, in her Harpie-hammering sequence, looked like one of the most beautiful Eva characters in the show; at least for that specific fight. Besides that, the whole point of the show was about getting the 'good' 3rd Impact to happen; yet the show never even seemed to concentrate on that the last few episodes. Sure, the last 2 episodes were about complimentation, but only for Shinji. The movie, actually creating 3rd Impact, realized the goal of the story thus, makng it more whole.

I am interested in Sadamoto's version of the ending in the manga as well.
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Postby Incisivis » Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:00 pm

I'm going to go with both. Uh-huh.

End of Evangelion is, obviously, the better ending from a traditional narrative perspective. It's entertaining and interesting and a good little mindf*ck.

But the TV ending is also a winner, at least to me, for the sheer "Wow!" factor of it. The "void" framework was an interesting way to explore the character's problems and selves, and creates a good sense of emptiness and total destruction without any explosions or overt disasters. Plus, it functions as a sort of "cliff's notes" of the character's selves that provides a good starting point for character analysis. This trumps any obligation I might or might not have to a more lucid conclusion.

As an aside, I seem to be the only person who liked the TV ending and dislike the AU. :P

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Postby Soluzar » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:15 am

Incisivis wrote:I'm going to go with both. Uh-huh.

End of Evangelion is, obviously, the better ending from a traditional narrative perspective. It's entertaining and interesting and a good little mindf*ck.

But the TV ending is also a winner, at least to me, for the sheer "Wow!" factor of it. The "void" framework was an interesting way to explore the character's problems and selves, and creates a good sense of emptiness and total destruction without any explosions or overt disasters. Plus, it functions as a sort of "cliff's notes" of the character's selves that provides a good starting point for character analysis. This trumps any obligation I might or might not have to a more lucid conclusion.


Damn right. The more times I watch the endings, the more I realise that not only is the concurrent endings theory correct, but that there is a good chance that the ending was always envisioned to be told in two separate ways. The one ending (EoTV) is what happens inside the minds of the characters undergoing complementation, and the other (EoE) is what happened from a semi-objective point of view. It is what was happening 'outside' while EoTV was taking place. To my mind, any theories about separate endings are the product of an improper understanding of the complete sequence of events following the appearance of Tabris/Kaworu.

I used to hold some such theories myself. I now feel shame at my former ignorance.
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Postby Sectre01 » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:17 pm

The TV series had damn cheapass ending. Other than that 5 minuites of alternate reality it had like no new animation. Even when the characters were talking to Shinji they mouths weren't even moving. it looked like someone used paint and cut/paste images. Was Anno broke by the end of the series or something?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:30 pm

Sectre01 wrote:Was Anno broke by the end of the series or something?


Yes - the whole of EoTV was done on a shoestring, and the animation shows it.

Soluzar wrote:The more times I watch the endings, the more I realise that not only is the concurrent endings theory correct, but that there is a good chance that the ending was always envisioned to be told in two separate ways.


Given the unfinished fragments of Air done as a TV episode, I would think that the "two different ways" is more a happy accident than an early intention; especially given the way in which the series evolved from the original script outline.
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Postby bjamieson » Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:58 am

I enjoyed both endings to Evangelion. Although, I have to wonder how well my opinion of the TV ending would stand if when I had watched it, I didn't know that there was another ending looming in the background. That is, I wonder now knowledge of an alternate, more fleshed out (narratively) ending informed and changed my opinion of the TV ending when I saw it.

At any rate, I do prefer the film ending. And here's why - to me, The End of Evangelion is one of the finest, most arresting, innovative and brilliant films every produced. I regard it in the way I regard films like 2001: A Space Oddyssey and The Pillow Book. I simply adore every aspect of their story, their style and their process. To me, The End of Evangelion completes the narrative arc in a way that the TV series could not. Throughout the TV episodes, their is a balance of avant-garde, introspective, anti-narrative elements, and straight-forward plot. However, the TV ending basically throws out all the narrative and focuses on the anti-narrative. What the film ending does, is resume the balance between the two. It's equal parts. On one hand it's an epic sci-fi battle to save humanity. On the other, it's an intimate, personal, art-film. And that's what I love so deeply about it. Not many movies can pull off that equailibrium. But The End of Evangelion does it flawlessly. It is cryptic and often vague, but all the pieces are truly there.

The film is challenging, and requires effort to truly appreciate.

I admire that.
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