Sign if you're hoping for a happy ending.

[Warren Peace]

Anno doesn't believe in happy endings so much as the possibility of them. This extends even to things like Shiki-Jitsu and Love & Pop. He doesn't serve his characters happiness on a silver platter, rather, he allows them the potential to seize it. His protagonists don't end up exactly where they want, but by the end of his stories, they gain the self-knowledge needed to get there.

[Fazmotron]

Everybody finds love in the end.

[LightDragonman]

You know, I was thinking back to the final scene in 3.33, and I gotta say, I find the actions of both Asuka and Rei Q there to be rather interesting.

Asuka is the one who tries to get Shinji out of his shell, but she does it in a way that I wouldn't exactly call effective. Physically beating someone and calling them childish isn't exactly going to snap Shinji out of his stupor. Heck, note how when she drags him across the desert at the end, it causes him to lose his SDAT player. It's interesting to note that whenever he loses that device in this saga, it is when he is at his lowest point. It almost feels like it's saying that Asuka is trying to get Shinji to snap out of it, but is completely ignoring his own feelings and reasons for being like he is.

By comparison, Rei Q is last seen following them after sadly looking down at the discarded SDAT player, a formal callback to when Rei II retrieved said device after Shinji left in 2.22. I talked about this in a different topic, but basically I noticed that Rei Q's development seems to be formally calling back to Rei II's in the previous film. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if she is honestly concerned for Shinji, just like Rei II. Here, this last shot seems to signify that while Asuka is trying to get Shinji out of his depression but not caring about his feelings in doing so, Rei Q is the one who actually cares for how he feels, not how it would benefit herself.

Just an observation. At the very least, it is gonna take a combined effort from both Asuka and Rei Q to get Shinji out of his stupor right now.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well, Asuka never was very good at dealing with people's feelings before, 14 years of war sure didn't made things better!
Also, as tough it is, she really don't have the time to take his feelings into account : they're alone stranded in a desert of core material, far away from any pick up location, with scarce resources, no way to replenish them and the possibility that neo-NERV will send drone to deal with them, they really have to move ASAP.

And don't forget that Asuka is extremely pissed off at the end of the movie : not only did Shinji didn't listened to their order of not piloting the Eva, but he set off yet another Impact barely one week after coming back, forced her to self-destruct her Eva to save the Wunder, making her stranded in said red desert in the first place, and instead of at least go to look for her and help as a sign that he's even genuinely sorry for what he did and want to make up for it, when she founds him he's sulking at the bottom of his entry plug like a pouting child, giving the feeling that he doesn't give a shit about the situation of other people(like her who had to eject during fucking Fourth Impact and might had needed some help!) and his only thinking about himself, more precisely that he's pouting for not having what he wanted, ignoring the rest of the world.
Of course, that's Asuka's POV, the situation is far more complicated with him having been driven at the edge of insanity beforehand and his best friend's head being pulverized in front of him deal, but Asuka doesn't know that.

[Stillborn]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't have the slightest delusion that Anno would even consider a suicide end. That's far too negative in his mind. He'd rather try and shove some bullshit baseless idealistic message about how "happiness can be found LITERALLY ANYWHERE as long as you look for it" down our throats than acknowledge that, yes, in some situations you are legitimately fucked and better off offing yourself and being through with it rather than deal with a lifetime of +Net Misery.

That's what I would love most about a suicide ending, honestly. Because it would be an example of Anno, a proponent of the above ideology, finally admitting that sometimes suicide is the best answer instead of regurgitating the same unsubstantiated bullshit that happy people spiel whenever someone even so much as considers suicide.

And I'll add, that's why his message will inevitably fail to register with many of us.

If I wasn't so acidic and radiocative, I would hug you, for voicing some of my toughts. Now I don't have to resort to alegories that would make everyone uncomfortable and get me another warning

[Sephizim]

He'd rather try and shove some bullshit baseless idealistic message about how "happiness can be found LITERALLY ANYWHERE as long as you look for it" down our throats than acknowledge that, yes, in some situations you are legitimately fucked and better off offing yourself and being through with it rather than deal with a lifetime of +Net Misery.

You know that the problem with that is that Anno would essentially be saying, "Suicide is okay!" Someone in a suicidal mood, even if it is minor, watching a movie where the message is that the only way out of a bad situation is to kill yourself, may just end up taking that advice to heart. That's how it is when you're suicidal. You don't see the message as "its okay to do when you have absolutely no choice left and the entire world hates you" because that's just how suicidal people feel. All the time. I mean, would it be a bold statement? Yeah. But as writer, I would be super uncomfortable if that was the legacy I left behind. Especially if that was the last bit that I personally added to a work that is considered my greatest.

I may be getting off topic, but I don't think its idiotic to hold out hope for something better. Is it cliche? Yeah, but I think the world is in such a pessimistic state that would could use as much hope as possible. Otherwise, what is the point of living at all? To drag Shinji through the depths of despair, further than we've ever seen him, only to have him come back with the idea that life is worth living, I think, is a strong message. Having him off himself would just render everything pointless. "Shinji causes end of world, learns nothing, and dies. You just wasted six hours."

Just my two cents.

[Bagheera]

That's what I would love most about a suicide ending, honestly. Because it would be an example of Anno, a proponent of the above ideology, finally admitting that sometimes suicide is the best answer instead of regurgitating the same unsubstantiated bullshit that happy people spiel whenever someone even so much as considers suicide.

There are times when this is correct. However, Shinji's circumstances don't come close to qualifying for such a scenario. The only things that qualify are being guilty of truly vile acts and ruthless, unforgiving pragmatism. If you death will save the lives of others, or otherwise solve problems for people you care about, sure. If you're guilty of things like rape or other, comparable acts from which there's no recovery, you bet. But causing turmoil because people are manipulating the fuck out of you and you're so stressed you can't think straight? Nope. Not even close.

So no, unless Shinji does something truly vile in Final there's no way a suicide ending would be remotely appropriate. It would instead be a cheap copout, just like it usually is in real life.

[Stillborn]

In defence of sucidial ending (yes, I know how creepy that sounds :P) I must say, that it would really be more appropriate ending.

What's the point of living for Shinji? Just because "that's the proper way of things"?

Shinji lost everything. Half of the people he cared about died, and the other half contempts him. His closest ones put a bomb on him and consider him a burden. His whole world is destroyed and he has blood of a dear person on his hands.
He is unneeded and unwanted by his surrogate family and his very existence a burden to local heroes and possibly a threat.

Why should he cling to life if all he will be remembered as is a failure and idiot? When he will have to be forgiven for the fact that he is even alive, and be grateful that he wasn't lynched for that fact?

What's the point and appeal to life like that?

Not everyone have a chance to be happy as long as they live. There are levels of physical and mental damage where every day feels like an unbearable torture and your own mind poisons every hour you're awake. You won't turn shit into diamonds.

Just look at certain ill people, who suffer so greatly that they wish for euthanasia, cause thay can't stand another day of the unimaginable pain. What could you say to someone like that? Keep on living and suffering... Because it's the proper way?

Shinji pretty much is on this level mentally instead of physically. Suicide ending wouldn't fit Anno's hamfisted preaching, but would completly fit the mood and "cause and effect" of systematic breaking of Shinji.

Telling someone to keep on living, if you can't even comprehend the level of his/her suffering is empty "obligatory effort". If Shinji will live against all odds despite being the punchline of cosmic cruel joke, it would not only be cliche, but downright hollow and empty.

[Bagheera]

In defence of sucidial ending (yes, I know how creepy that sounds :P) I must say, that it would really be more appropriate ending.

No, it wouldn't. It would be bad storytelling on the face of it, but more importantly most of the reasons you cite supporting your claim are distorted and misleading. We actually don't know how people really feel about Shinji, or about his prospects in the new world, or about what he might be able to do to influence things in Final, or about what responsibility he really bears for, well, everything.

In short you're rolling with assumptions here, not facts. And that is exactly the sort of scenario that makes a suicide end inappropriate.

[Stillborn]

I'll pause here for now. CJD brought that up, so I would like to wait for his comment as well

[Giji Shinka]

Telling someone to keep on living, if you can't even comprehend the level of his/her suffering is empty "obligatory effort".

True, but this case is different: Misato and the whole world has also gone through great suffering, despair and depression.

They surely know what Shinji feels and they do want to help him. (Sure, they still dislike him on some level, but still, they want to help him)

[Stillborn]

And yet treat him coldly and objectify him. Shinji has traumas pinpointed at him and piled one after another at him and he have a more frail psyche to begin with. It's completly different depth. WILLE are pragmatic, but barely empathic enough to care about "brat with problems".

[artesox]

I'm going to quote 3.33 Kaworu here, "Even if your soul disappears, your wishes and curses remain in this world". Shinji can even suicide but he can't erase himself, his mistakes and actions will resound trough the world eternally, it wouldn't clean his guilty, it wouldn't help anyone (hell, it could even mindbreak someone) it would do absolutely nothing.

I do not think it is a interesting idea, I want to see the plot developing and Shinji dealing with it on multiple ways,it don't matter for me if it will be denial, rage or acceptance. A suicide end would not provide anything but Shinji running away from his problems, that is not a interesting development and is only interesting for shock value.

About Wille, Asuka cares about him enough to not let him die, Misato clearly couldn't kill him, Sakura is still a Suzuhara, she could punch him for piloting an EVA but could understand him later, and Mari didn't even seem angry with him, so I think there is enough potential for a few persons trying to help him in 4.0

[pwhodges]

What's the point and appeal to life like that?

While you have life you have a future; and the future is not necessarily the same as the past. The only way to find out about that future is to go there - predictions just don't work.

[Gorbatschow]

While you have life you have a future; and the future is not necessarily the same as the past. The only way to find out about that future is to go there - predictions just don't work.

Regarding suicide itself:

I was suicidal over a rather short amount of time (about a year) and luckily overcame it quite well. At the moment I don't see why anyone would just wanting to stop. Even if everything is seemingly as bad as it can get at the moment , there is always the possibility of going further and (maybe) discovering that everything isn't as bad as yoe excepted. Even if you look at life as a "bad movie" (what I did a long time) you have plenty of reasons to at least life until certain events occurred (even if they're only a bunch of books you want to read before you die)

Regarding suicide as a narrative ending:

It can be an appropriate ending if it is introduced well enough and makes sense in the continuity of the character development and the story itself. I highly doubt that suicide can be an appropriate or even satisfying ending for movies like Evangelion.

[Sephizim]

Shinji is a 14-year-old boy. Factoring in life expectancy, he has anywhere between 70-80 years left of his life. That is more than enough opportunity for him to make something worthwhile of his life. Especially when, as Bagheera said, he's been manipulated into everything he's done. His actions caused terrible things, but he never knew what he was doing, or had any reason to assume the things he did would be so devastating (pulling the Lances is a bit iffy, since he knew it was fate of the world type stuff, but its again reasonable to assume he had no idea it would cause another Impact). I think the key to moving on is Misato. Her demeanor throughout 3.0 shows great conflict between the Captain of Wunder who wants to shoulder her crew's attitude and blame him for 3I, and the motherly Misato that wants to believe in Shinji. I think in 4.0, her repressed feelings will come through and be part of the hope Shinji needs. Because Shinji, like all people, has the capacity to make his life mean more than the bad things he's caused. Yes, it will always follow him around, but if he works at it, he can make a better life for himself. Especially if NERV/Seele are out of the picture and no longer in control of his life.

Its not that Shinji shouldn't kill himself because its "the proper thing to do," its because he would be denying himself the opportunity to turn his life around. He's not a terminally ill hospital patient where death is really the only option. And it certainly won't be easy. But by no means is he in a state where his life no longer has any potential. I don't think its hamfisted to be optimistic, especially when the outlook is especially bleak. Yeah, its a more traditional approach, but EVA has never been about completely submitting to despair. It has always had a message of hope running throughout it, even though things turn out bleak for the characters. A lot of people need that message of hope. I'm not going to get especially personal or anything, but a message of hope at the right time is a matter of life and death, and EVA has been that for me. If the message of Rebuild turns out to be "if life is to hard, just end it" not only would that go against everything EVA has ever stood for, it would be a huge blow to me on an individual level.

[Squigsquasher]

Personally, I don't think Shinji is as universally reviled as Stillborn is saying. Let's look at it:

-Most people probably won't even know who he is (I would imagine the whole affair will have been kept very hush-hush).
-Sakura Suzuhara seemed to be genuinely caring towards him.
-Mari doesn't seem to hold any ill will towards him (considering that in the middle of an Impact, she was giving him cheery life lessons down the intercom).
-Misato was actually trying to tell Shinji that he would be kept safe if he stayed on the Wunder, and the tone in her voice was quite sincere, and even concerned for him. Coupled with the fact she didn't just press the trigger on the DSS Choker, I'd say she still cares about him to some degree.
-If Asuka hated him that much she would have killed him. He was lying practically comatose in the entry plug. If she had wanted to hurt him or kill him, she could have and gotten away with it, writing it off as "He died in the crash". The only other witness was ReiQ, who WILLE isn't going to trust any time soon (and who Asuka could probably kill anyway).

He's hardly Mr Popularity, but there are still people who care for him.

[Mr. Tines]

The discussion of suicide has centred only on the modern western interpretation as an eject button for the depressed. There's also the "bottle of whisky and a service revolver" model -- and, as we are talking Japan, messy suicide as a reproach to one's superiors.

[CJD]

You know that the problem with that is that Anno would essentially be saying, "Suicide is okay!" Someone in a suicidal mood, even if it is minor, watching a movie where the message is that the only way out of a bad situation is to kill yourself, may just end up taking that advice to heart. That's how it is when you're suicidal. You don't see the message as "its okay to do when you have absolutely no choice left and the entire world hates you" because that's just how suicidal people feel.

First, I know exactly how it feels when you're suicidal because I have extensive experience with the state of mind, and you're right.

Now that that's out of the way, you're totally right. There inevitably would be people who watch it and use it as the justification for them to commit the act, even more so since Eva already tends to draw in the more depressed crowd to begin with. I'm thinking people who are on the edge, looking for something to definitively convince them to either live or die, and Shinji offing himself in that manner could very well, no doubt would in some cases, be the tipping point.

But honestly, that's art.... And I fail to understand why beating people over the head with art to try and convey your message, such as Anno did with NGE (and arguably 3.0), is only ok as long as said message is "socially accepted." Is the message dangerous? Sure. Would it result in some unnecessary deaths? Sure. But honestly, it's still the truth and it's still something that, I feel, needs to be said. Especially in light of how overwhelming the opposite argument is. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes here.

Otherwise, what is the point of living at all?

Well that's the million dollar question now, ain't it?

To drag Shinji through the depths of despair, further than we've ever seen him, only to have him come back with the idea that life is worth living, I think, is a strong message.

Oh it can be, no doubt. The issue is execution. And honestly, between EoE and what we see in 3.0 my faith in Anno's ability to execute a positive ending to Rebuild that feels genuine, instead of forced, is pretty low.

There are times when this is correct. However, Shinji's circumstances don't come close to qualifying for such a scenario. The only things that qualify are being guilty of truly vile acts and ruthless, unforgiving pragmatism. If you death will save the lives of others, or otherwise solve problems for people you care about, sure. If you're guilty of things like rape or other, comparable acts from which there's no recovery, you bet. But causing turmoil because people are manipulating the fuck out of you and you're so stressed you can't think straight? Nope. Not even close.

No see you're talking about something else. This isn't a case of someone "deserving to die," this is a case of someone being "better off dead." They're two entirely different things.

It would instead be a cheap copout, just like it usually is in real life.

Oh please. Yes god forbid anyone want to opt out of this hellhole we call life on planet Earth. How dare they not want to endure misery and misfortune all for the sake of some arbitrary "value in living." No, they're obligated to suffer through it with the rest of us, and if they don't they're a coward/idiot/shameful/running away/copping out.

Honestly, I hate this kind of utter disregard for the value of someone's life choices.

It would be bad storytelling on the face of it

There's nothing bad about it. Bad story telling is forcing some ill fitting positive ending in an effort to convey a message. If Anno wanted to have a positive end to Rebuild he shouldn't have backed himself into a corner like he did with 3.0.

In short you're rolling with assumptions here, not facts. And that is exactly the sort of scenario that makes a suicide end inappropriate.

So are you man. Stillborn's assuming the worst, you're assuming the best. Well, maybe you're not, but by claiming that a suicide end would be inappropriate you're working from quite optimistic assumptions.

Don't get me wrong, stuff could happen/be revealed in 4.0 that would make what we see in 3.0 not nearly as bad, and in that event sure a suicide end would be bad story telling, but Anno's going to have to do some serious gymnastics to make it work if that's the route he takes.

While you have life you have a future; and the future is not necessarily the same as the past. The only way to find out about that future is to go there - predictions just don't work.

Wonderfully positive, pw. As expected of someone who's lived into his late 60's and is still going strong

Edit: Removed some soapboxing. This isn't the outlet for it.

[KingXanaduu]

Honestly, I hate this kind of utter disregard for the value of someone's life choices.

It's not about a disregard for their choices, but helping people realize that it's not the RIGHT choice. Yes CJD, life can be tough and sometimes downright cruel, but that doesn't mean that those aspects DEFINE life in it's entirety. That's why there are tons of Suicide Support Groups and Suicide Hotlines, to prevent them! It's because there are people out there who have FOUND happiness through hard work and determination even through the bad times, they want to extend that happiness to those who are struggling, because they know what it's like. They've fallen down the pit of despair, but they've also risen above it. :) And that's why tons of people want to help others in such a position, cause if they can do it, others can too. :)

No see you're talking about something else. This isn't a case of someone "deserving to die," this is a case of someone being "better off dead." They're two entirely different things.

No CJD, that former message still stands. Shinji has messed up big time, yes, and there are some probably that probably do wish him dead, as well as himself. But, the roles have changed now. Now, he is in the custody of people who can help guide him to make better decisions of himself and point him in the right direction. Yes, Shinji screwed up, but just as he has the capacity to mess up, he has the capacity to make things right. It's a risk at whether he can actually accomplish it, but at least he can at least TRY to show that his heart in the right place instead of just giving up and leaving everyone behind to defend themselves. He owes them that much in that regard at least. :)