Circumstances of Kaworu's creation [split]

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:31 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:In interpretation at this level, even which option counts as "minimal" is subject to personal opinion it seems!

So you don't think that making Kaworu's creation work within an event that's already part of the show, and was deliberately added to the show after the fact (i.e., the Adam CE), is more parsimonious than requiring an entire additional event that the show provides no direct evidence ever actually happened?

It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Kaworu to be based on the donor unless, well, he was a direct product of the procedure the donor was involved in (on what happened to be the donor's last day on planet Earth). Why in the world weave an additional tale about how this guy's DNA is so singularly useful for weird experiments that, post-2I, his DNA needs to be dug out of some hairbrush from Japan in order to create Kaworu? If Kaworu were created later, they could have based him on anyone -- even, say, a NON-Japanese person!

Also, as I said, if the genetics experiment does not explain Kaworu, then you have to come up with a totally different explanation for why it's in the show, which takes us yet further from this idea of "minimal".

And I thought you were a big manga fan, so I'm surprised you don't find Sadamoto laying things out in the open more persuasive.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:47 am

True enough (re manga) - but give me time to absorb the information I didn't take in before. It's work in progress (not to mention a fic I started based around my interpretation...).
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:01 am

This thread doesn't really have implications for your fic, you know. :tongueflap:
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:41 am

Not the completed one (Afterwards), the initial stub one (Adam Awoke). My idea in my fics is to extend the Eva universe while remaining consistent with, rather than presenting an alternative parallel one; so yes, I'd like to convince myself it still fits.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:55 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:An actual person was involved, but it was his genes that did the diving and not the whole person.


Well . . . isn't that obvious, though? I mean, if they're using human DNA it has to come from someone, so what's so special about the term in this context?

Also, it never occurred to me that we weren't bound by the idea of Kaworu being created as a result of 2I, and the he could in fact have been created anywhere so long as it was on that day. I'll have to think about that, maybe see what Paul does with his fic to see what I think later on.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:48 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Not the completed one (Afterwards), the initial stub one (Adam Awoke).

That's the one I was referring to. You're using the ENT scenario. There's four Adams and four Spears. Trying to make it fit with the Second Impact from NGE is, wellllll...

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Well . . . isn't that obvious, though? I mean, if they're using human DNA it has to come from someone, so what's so special about the term in this context?

Nothing. I was just trying to clarify your confusion over what/who it was that did the "diving".

Also, it never occurred to me that we weren't bound by the idea of Kaworu being created as a result of 2I, and the he could in fact have been created anywhere so long as it was on that day.

The 2I docu-flashback seems to suggest that Kaworu's conception is in fact what triggers Second Impact. (I have various ideas about this, but I already know that none of them will be popular.)
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:54 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Nothing. I was just trying to clarify your confusion.


Then I don't see why anything was said about it to begin with.

The 2I docu-flashback seems to suggest that Kaworu's conception is in fact what triggers Second Impact.


The introduction of foreign genetic material into Adam is what triggers 2I. But, as I realized earlier, that actually doesn't have to have anything to do with Kaworu's creation, which I find interesting.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:00 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Then I don't see why anything was said about it to begin with.

O...kay? :huh: (Think there is some kind of weird miscommunication here, since your response is nonsensical to me.)

The introduction of foreign genetic material into Adam is what triggers 2I. But, as I realized earlier, that actually doesn't have to have anything to do with Kaworu's creation, which I find interesting.

This seems in violation of the law of conservation of detail in fiction. I know I am only repeating myself, but...

- There exists an Angel with the shape of a Lilin, who was "born from Adam", apparently on the day of Second Impact
- On the day of Second Impact, a genetic experiment was performed wherein a Lilin touched Adam inappropriately or something

Naturally, these two things should have nothing to do with one another, right?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:02 am

Why would they even be trying to make Kaworu in another location though? All indications are 2I didn't exactly go according to plan so there's no reason for them to be planning for the 2I we did get. Not to mention who's going to be trying to make clones when huge tsunamis are leveling coastal cities all over the world. I'd think most people would be distracted by the sheer scale of the calamity.

@Reichu: Kaworu says the Evas are "born from Adam" so that's not exactly conclusive.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:07 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:@Reichu: Kaworu says the Evas are "born from Adam" so that's not exactly conclusive.

No, but the Evas also weren't "born" on a day that involved a weird experiment that only seems to be in the story for the purpose of explaining their origins.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:10 am

True but as evident by the Evas "born from Adam" doesn't exclude offsite cloning. I don't agree with the idea for the reasons above but I don't think that particular quote is very useful.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:14 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:O...kay? :huh: (Think there is some kind of weird miscommunication here, since your response is nonsensical to me.)


When you originally made the clarification (years ago) it was in response to the notion that simple genetic material was used in the experiment. You said that no, the Japanese term indicates an actual person was used, not just basic genetic material. Why make the clarification if the term only means the genetic material came from a person? That's obvious, if it's human genetic material it has to come from someone. So why bring up the person business at all?

This seems in violation of the law of conservation of detail in fiction. I know I am only repeating myself, but...


In this case I think the rank silliness associated with Kaworu's creation during 2I overrules said law. I normally wouldn't, but the logistics involved in making it all work are such that I can't really take it seriously. Hence, if given an out I'm inclined to take it.

Mileage will vary on that front, of course.

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Why would they even be trying to make Kaworu in another location though? All indications are 2I didn't exactly go according to plan so there's no reason for them to be planning for the 2I we did get. Not to mention who's going to be trying to make clones when huge tsunamis are leveling coastal cities all over the world. I'd think most people would be distracted by the sheer scale of the calamity.


But by the same token who's going to be sniffing around Antarctica to pick up a survivor in an escape capsule, a teenager floating around, an embryo (how did they even find that???), and the Lance? They're gonna be hunting for three of those regardless, but if they have time to futz around with that they have time to move their plans into the next phase.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:19 am

Was it ever said how soon after the event they found Misato? I legitimately can't remember.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:19 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:True but as evident by the Evas "born from Adam" doesn't exclude offsite cloning. I don't agree with the idea for the reasons above but I don't think that particular quote is very useful.

It needs to be considered in its full context. "Adam, our mother. Must those who were born from Adam return to Adam, even at the cost of destroying humanity?" It was always my impression that Kaworu was implicitly referring to the Angels here, as they've been understood to be the beings that will destroy humanity if they "return to Adam". The Evas aren't really part of this equation, despite being "born from Adam" as well. If so, Kaworu is referring here to his status as an Angel not entirely unlike the others. Creation induced by humanity, but born directly from Adam all the same.

Bagheera wrote:Why make the clarification if the term only means the genetic material came from a person? That's obvious, if it's human genetic material it has to come from someone. So why bring up the person business at all?

Oh. The TERM ("donor") means it came from a person. The quote in episode 21' where the term is used ("contact experiment with the donor") indicates that said person participated in the experiment. (Of course, I should probably double-check with Numbers-kun just in case there's wiggle room. E-mail sent.)

In this case I think the rank silliness associated with Kaworu's creation during 2I overrules said law. I normally wouldn't, but the logistics involved in making it all work are such that I can't really take it seriously.

Seems a little like episode 21' preempts your attitude with the dialogue along the lines of, "Welp, it's right here in front of us, like, for reals. Can't ignore it; better deal with it." :devil: The "silliness" is a judgment call on your part. If you accept what's there and work with it instead of against it, a great deal can be accomplished.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:56 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It needs to be considered in its full context. "Adam, our mother. Must those who were born from Adam return to Adam, even at the cost of destroying humanity?" It was always my impression that Kaworu was implicitly referring to the Angels here, as they've been understood to be the beings that will destroy humanity if they "return to Adam". The Evas aren't really part of this equation, despite being "born from Adam" as well. If so, Kaworu is referring here to his status as an Angel not entirely unlike the others. Creation induced by humanity, but born directly from Adam all the same.


Serious question, possibly tangentville, is it the body or the soul that is the important part in this equation?
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:02 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Serious question, possibly tangentville, is it the body or the soul that is the important part in this equation?

I'd assume both.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:04 pm

Well, okay, clearly the question wasn't clear enough. Would it make a difference if Adam's soul was implanted in an Eva? Basically what actual importance is the Kaworu vessel in this scenario.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:18 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:That's the one I was referring to. You're using the ENT scenario. There's four Adams and four Spears. Trying to make it fit with the Second Impact from NGE is, wellllll...

Oh, shucks - I don't even remember my own story! Put it down to age (I try to deny growing old, but sometimes I have to admit it has unavoidable effects).
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Postby NemZ » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:21 pm

Reichu, are you implying the research team decided someone should fuck that sleeping giant for the sake of science? I know it's cold and lonely at the poles, but just how drunk were they?
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:36 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Reichu, are you implying the research team decided someone should fuck that sleeping giant for the sake of science?

That doesn't seem like it would work too well for reasons of scale. :devil: But they could have done SOMEthing weird and Eva-ish that resulted in a... similar outcome, i.e., the creation of some unholy hybrid offspring by induced sexual recombination. (I'm not going to get into too much detail about what I've imagined, since I'm saving that reveal for a very particular time and place.)

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